SF voters pass measure to drug test welfare recipients

[lfromnj]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/drug-test-welfare-san-francisco

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Under the ballot measure, Proposition F, welfare recipients who use illegal drugs would be mandated to undergo treatment or be denied cash assistance. If they were found to be using drugs, an addiction specialist and the recipient would agree on treatment options that include residential care, a 12-step program, individual counseling and replacement medication.

It will impact those who receive cash assistance, not "welfare recipients" in general. And if they choose to receive treatment then they will continue to receive benefits.

Honestly, same as with Oregon's recent 're-criminalization' these measures in blue states are far more measured than anything you'd see in a 'war on drugs' red state and I'm not wholly opposed to these middle-ground measures.

[Benjamin Frank 2.0]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

[Indy Texas]

Under the ballot measure, Proposition F, welfare recipients who use illegal drugs would be mandated to undergo treatment or be denied cash assistance. If they were found to be using drugs, an addiction specialist and the recipient would agree on treatment options that include residential care, a 12-step program, individual counseling and replacement medication.

It will impact those who receive cash assistance, not "welfare recipients" in general. And if they choose to receive treatment then they will continue to receive benefits.

Honestly, same as with Oregon's recent 're-criminalization' these measures in blue states are far more measured than anything you'd see in a 'war on drugs' red state and I'm not wholly opposed to these middle-ground measures.

There aren't enough treatment resources to go around as it is.

If the idea is to fast-track welfare recipients so they can keep their benefits, I'm sure that will go over really well with the public...

[Badger]

Testing inevitably costs more than any savings on benefits. Florida prove this among several other states and localities which tried this populist but ineffective plan.

All the things San Francisco could do to improve its standard of living, this isn't even in the top 10.

[Ferguson97]

Didn’t Florida try this like a decade ago, and it would up being a huge waste of time and money? I think only something like 2% of applicants tested positive.

[SWE]

San Francisco is a hellhole

[Benjamin Frank 2.0]

San Francisco is a hellhole

The vast majority of the city is better than the vast majority of the hellholes of Texas and Floriduh.

[SWE]

San Francisco is a hellhole

The vast majority of the city is better than the vast majority of the hellholes of Texas and Floriduh.

For now. The voters seem intent on changing that though

[Benjamin Frank 2.0]

San Francisco is a hellhole

The vast majority of the city is better than the vast majority of the hellholes of Texas and Floriduh.

For now. The voters seem intent on changing that though

Ah, I see your point. I actually doubt that, as long as drugs remain illegal I don't think it really matters what is done with tinkering around the edges. The only thing this obviously shows is that public drug use is obviously a problem in both Portland which decriminalized drugs and San Francisco which didn't (although maybe San Francisco hasn't been enforcing drug laws, I don't know.)

However, given that there are laws against public drinking of alcohol which is a 'regulated substance' if not technically fully legal, there would obviously still be laws against the public use of any drug (except for cigarettes I suppose.)

[Torrain]

San Francisco voters describing themselves as progressive, but basically holding the same positions as the median Tory MP here in the UK continues to fascinate me:
  ✅ Dogmatic NIMBYism.
  ✅ Cruel and unusual requirement for welfare/benefits recipients.
  ✅ Picking ideological leaders, who you recall when they follow through on their threats.

[Sir Mohamed]

Is that even constitutional? I doubted it would actually pass.

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

[Benjamin Frank 2.0]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

If you work in a big enough office I'd be surprised if there isn't at least once person you work with who uses heroin and you don't know it.

[Electric Circus]

Didn’t Florida try this like a decade ago, and it would up being a huge waste of time and money? I think only something like 2% of applicants tested positive.

This is arguably a sign that the policy worked. One intent of testing is to deter people from using drugs in the first place.

The studies and numbers that get invoked in these conversations usually come with the assumption that drug testing is only successful if loads of people are testing positive and getting thrown off of the rolls.

Obviously, this is speculative unless you have some sense of what the base rate of drug use is in this population. With that said, 2% is very low. You would struggle to find a population with so little drug use if you picked Americans for testing at random.

[Reactionary Libertarian]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

Most people addicted to opioids don’t want to be on powerful street drugs like heroin or fentanyl. But in a legal market, an addict could buy some pharmaceutical-grade oxycodone instead and continue to function. The black market pushes people towards more powerful drugs they don’t actually want.

[dead0man]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

Most people addicted to opioids don’t want to be on powerful street drugs like heroin or fentanyl. But in a legal market, an addict could buy some pharmaceutical-grade oxycodone instead and continue to function. The black market pushes people towards more powerful drugs they don’t actually want.

yeah, but drug companies were making money off of poor drug addicts and that's way worse than tens of thousands of OD's a year....apparently.

[Reactionary Libertarian]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

Most people addicted to opioids don’t want to be on powerful street drugs like heroin or fentanyl. But in a legal market, an addict could buy some pharmaceutical-grade oxycodone instead and continue to function. The black market pushes people towards more powerful drugs they don’t actually want.

yeah, but drug companies were making money off of poor drug addicts and that's way worse than tens of thousands of OD's a year....apparently.

No one wants to admit that the opioid crisis started when doctors stopped prescribing the drugs and people were forced to switch to unsafe street drugs. People weren’t mass overdosing on OxyContin.

[gerritcole]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

Most people addicted to opioids don’t want to be on powerful street drugs like heroin or fentanyl. But in a legal market, an addict could buy some pharmaceutical-grade oxycodone instead and continue to function. The black market pushes people towards more powerful drugs they don’t actually want.

yeah, but drug companies were making money off of poor drug addicts and that's way worse than tens of thousands of OD's a year....apparently.

No one wants to admit that the opioid crisis started when doctors stopped prescribing the drugs and people were forced to switch to unsafe street drugs. People weren’t mass overdosing on OxyContin.

They weren’t mass oding yes but their lives were falling apart as they self harmed for more meds or stole from others or started to sell off items to fund the addiction, ultimately, we cannot solve the human condition, human suffering is part of life and people will find a way to cope with it whether through alcohol meds foood or god or something

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

Most people addicted to opioids don’t want to be on powerful street drugs like heroin or fentanyl. But in a legal market, an addict could buy some pharmaceutical-grade oxycodone instead and continue to function. The black market pushes people towards more powerful drugs they don’t actually want.

yeah, but drug companies were making money off of poor drug addicts and that's way worse than tens of thousands of OD's a year....apparently.

No one wants to admit that the opioid crisis started when doctors stopped prescribing the drugs and people were forced to switch to unsafe street drugs. People weren’t mass overdosing on OxyContin.

They weren’t mass oding yes but their lives were falling apart as they self harmed for more meds or stole from others or started to sell off items to fund the addiction, ultimately, we cannot solve the human condition, human suffering is part of life and people will find a way to cope with it whether through alcohol meds foood or god or something

Yes.  The solution to all our social problems is a spiritual revival, not bureaucratic knob-twiddling.

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

If you work in a big enough office I'd be surprised if there isn't at least once person you work with who uses heroin and you don't know it.

Yes, and if they continue to use their lives will become increasingly unmanageable until their dependency is such that it interferes with their relationships, finances, mental health, ability to take care of themselves, etc.  I only pray that they preempt this cycle and get sober before another life is ruined by the spiritual disease of addiction. 

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

Most people addicted to opioids don’t want to be on powerful street drugs like heroin or fentanyl. But in a legal market, an addict could buy some pharmaceutical-grade oxycodone instead and continue to function. The black market pushes people towards more powerful drugs they don’t actually want.

Most people on heroin have never been prescribed legal opioids.  Putting oxy on the shelves just makes it more accessible, which is just going to extend the scrounge of addiction further. 

[Benjamin Frank 2.0]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

If you work in a big enough office I'd be surprised if there isn't at least once person you work with who uses heroin and you don't know it.

Yes, and if they continue to use their lives will become increasingly unmanageable until their dependency is such that it interferes with their relationships, finances, mental health, ability to take care of themselves, etc.  I only pray that they preempt this cycle and get sober before another life is ruined by the spiritual disease of addiction.  

While I certainly acknowledge that heroin use isn't good, and worse for some people than others, your comment seems to me to be a stereotype based on stigma and not based on evidence. While acknowledging possible weakness in the data, the evidence available suggests it's more in the middle.

How many people use heroin? Among people aged 12 or older in 2021, 0.4% (or about 1.1 million people) reported using heroin in the past 12 months (2021 DT 1.1)

in 2021 there were 167 million Americans in the civilian labor force so heroin users represent about 0.6% of all people in the  civilian labor force.

The percentages of workers addicted to prescription opioids or heroin (0.6%
and 0.2%)
https://www.nsc.org/getmedia/9dc908e1-041a-41c5-a607-c4cef2390973/substance-use-disorders-by-occupation.pdf (2020)

So, about 1/3 of all heroin users/addicts are employed in contrast to about 64% of all Americans 18 and over being in the labor force, meaning heroin users are half as likely as other Americans to be in the labor force.

This leaves out though why the numbers are lower: for how many is it due to having an arrest record, being presently in jail, I.E the illegality of illicit drugs themselves that cause the barrier to entry and not that heroin users can't be responsible adults.
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/04/01/criminal-record-job-housing-barriers-discrimination
More than 70 million Americans with arrest records face barriers to find work or a decent place to live.

So, yes, I'm sure that there are some heroin users who have such a horrible addictive personality that they are unable to maintain employment, but the evidence shows that over 200,000 Americans who use heroin/have a heroin addiction are gainfully employed.

I sometimes get annoyed here that I put in some actual effort matching up different data, and I get responses based on anecdotes or 'feelings.'

Do you have any actual evidence that heroin users' lives spiral down due to the heroin use itself or is this just stereotyping based on stigma and to the degree that it is actually the case that heroin users' lives spiral that it isn't caused by getting arrested resulting in the loss of job/loss of housing.

Of course, I realize things are more complicated now due to the fentanyl laced drugs including heroin, but that's also entirely a problem of these drugs being illegal. If drugs were legal there would be quality control checks that would prevent things like fentanyl getting mixed in with them.

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

If you work in a big enough office I'd be surprised if there isn't at least once person you work with who uses heroin and you don't know it.

Yes, and if they continue to use their lives will become increasingly unmanageable until their dependency is such that it interferes with their relationships, finances, mental health, ability to take care of themselves, etc.  I only pray that they preempt this cycle and get sober before another life is ruined by the spiritual disease of addiction. 

[snip]

Your statistics make a very uncompelling case.  By your own back-of-the-napkin estimates, heroin users participate in the labor force (i.e., employed or unemployed seeking employment) at half the rate as everyone else.  And that's includes all people who used at least once in the past 12 months?  The rate for those who are regular users/addicts would be even lower.

Walk down the streets of any major U.S. city and see the homeless, the vagrants, the street workers and you will be face to face with heroin users.  I have friends–young, successful and bright men in their 20s–who have died from overdoses, and many more who are now spiritually dead in their addictions.  Statistics are silent where anecdotes speak to what has happened in the lives of real people.  They belong in this discussion.

The "live-at-let-live" attitude of mass drug destigmitization and legalization places all the responsibility for the poor outcomes associated with drug use on an oppressive "system" that is only too overzealous to punish people who are only down on their luck, trying to have a little bit of fun, etc., etc.  But it isn't true.  Addiction harms and kills people who never have any interaction with the criminal justice system.  Putting more powerful substances into the hands of more people is only going to make things worse. 

[Benjamin Frank 2.0]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

If you work in a big enough office I'd be surprised if there isn't at least once person you work with who uses heroin and you don't know it.

Yes, and if they continue to use their lives will become increasingly unmanageable until their dependency is such that it interferes with their relationships, finances, mental health, ability to take care of themselves, etc.  I only pray that they preempt this cycle and get sober before another life is ruined by the spiritual disease of addiction.  

[snip]

Your statistics make a very uncompelling case.  By your own back-of-the-napkin estimates, heroin users participate in the labor force (i.e., employed or unemployed seeking employment) at half the rate as everyone else.  And that's includes all people who used at least once in the past 12 months?  The rate for those who are regular users/addicts would be even lower.

Walk down the streets of any major U.S. city and see the homeless, the vagrants, the street workers and you will be face to face with heroin users.  I have friends–young, successful and bright men in their 20s–who have died from overdoses, and many more who are now spiritually dead in their addictions.  Statistics are silent where anecdotes speak to what has happened in the lives of real people.  They belong in this discussion.

The "live-at-let-live" attitude of mass drug destigmitization and legalization places all the responsibility for the poor outcomes associated with drug use on an oppressive "system" that is only too overzealous to punish people who are only down on their luck, trying to have a little bit of fun, etc., etc.  But it isn't true.  Addiction harms and kills people who never have any interaction with the criminal justice system.  Putting more powerful substances into the hands of more people is only going to make things worse.  

Indeed, all you have are anecdotes and paternalistic feelings. How many of the people who died, died from fentanyl laced heroin which would not happen if all drugs were legal and regulated.

The problem with policy based on feelings and emotion is that it tends to result in the worst outcomes, the road to Hell being paved with good intentions and all that.

I recall you were one of the "live and let live" Covidiots who didn't want to be told what to do, but seem to think you have the authoritarian right to tell other people the choices they must make, even though the Covidiots were the equivalent of fentanyl laced drugs out on the streets quietly infecting and killing other people. You might want to reflect on your self serving hypocrisy as well.