Right to go shirtless/topless in public?

[ProgressiveModerate]

This issue came to my attention for 2 reasons recently:

1. A HS friend was telling me about how their college banned anyone (male or female) from being topless on campus.

2. Even though I've been working out and have gotten decently fit I still have body dysmorphia, so trying to be shirtless more (when it's appropriate) to gain some confidence back, especially since by conventional standards I am fit.

I've also noticed a decent number of younger people, mostly on the left and far left who really seem to hate when men go shirtless, even in a situation where it's conventionally acceptable like running, pool, or beach. They seem to come at it through the lens that somehow men being topless re-enforces the patriarchy which I don't quite buy. I also think some people don't like it when they see a fit person take off their shirt at the beach and feel like they can't.

I also know there's debates around if men have the right to go topless, why shouldn't women? There are a few places, mostly liberal cities and vacation towns where local governments say women have the same right to go topless as men. Still pretty rare, and from my understanding even if the right is there it's often rarely used likely because of social norms and stuff.

Should local governments be able to regulate if someone should be allowed to go shirtless in public? Should private institutions be allowed to? Should our culture encourage or discourage people to go topless? Should distinctions be made between men and women?

[progressive85]

As for men being shirtless, I am one person on "the left" that wants to see more of it, not less.  I think men that spend so much time and energy to look like Adonises should take their shirts off and show off what they have.  It's good for community morale to see healthy men  .

As for women, breasts are normal and natural, and there's nothing wrong in my opinion with a topless woman on a hot day hiking up a hill, or on a beach trying to stay cool.  It's just fine to me.

but have respect for families with kids though - I think if I had a child I would not mind them seeing a topless person on a hot summer day, but there's others that would not want the children to see that due to them feeling its "improper" or "inappropriate", so there should be a level of respect for those that don't want to see you without the right amount of clothing.

I feel as a society we've become so much more casual.  In the year 1950, I bet it was very odd to see a guy jogging around a crowded neighborhood without a shirt.  Today, in the summer, you see it.  It's a different time.

[VBM]

Men are just naturally far more sexually aroused by seeing a woman’s bare breasts than women are by seeing a man’s chest. That’s why women going topless is far more discouraged

[darklordoftech]

Should local governments be able to regulate if someone should be allowed to go shirtless in public?

No

Should private institutions be allowed to?

Yes

Should our culture encourage or discourage people to go topless?

Neither

Should distinctions be made between men and women?

No

[dead0man]

as I like to say (because it's true) no human in history has ever been harmed by seeing a lady boob.

[nicholas.slaydon]

Should local governments be able to regulate if someone should be allowed to go shirtless in public?
Yes.

Should private institutions be allowed to?
Yes.

Should our culture encourage or discourage people to go topless?
Discourage.

Should distinctions be made between men and women?
No

[ProgressiveModerate]

As for men being shirtless, I am one person on "the left" that wants to see more of it, not less.  I think men that spend so much time and energy to look like Adonises should take their shirts off and show off what they have.  It's good for community morale to see healthy men  .

As for women, breasts are normal and natural, and there's nothing wrong in my opinion with a topless woman on a hot day hiking up a hill, or on a beach trying to stay cool.  It's just fine to me.

but have respect for families with kids though - I think if I had a child I would not mind them seeing a topless person on a hot summer day, but there's others that would not want the children to see that due to them feeling its "improper" or "inappropriate", so there should be a level of respect for those that don't want to see you without the right amount of clothing.

I feel as a society we've become so much more casual.  In the year 1950, I bet it was very odd to see a guy jogging around a crowded neighborhood without a shirt.  Today, in the summer, you see it.  It's a different time.

Actually tend to agree with your first point; I think the expectation to be shirtless in a pool or on a beach has helped motivated a lot of men to work out and stay healthier. I've noticed in NYC an increasingly large subset of (mostly fit) men who make shirtless part of their casual style if they're just going out to the park or something. This is a bold take, but unless a place is like a fancy restaurant or somewhere where certain formalities are expected, "no shirt no service" policies should largely be abolished. I don't see a problem with a shirtless guy walking into Starbucks to buy a coffee.

One thing I will say is there is an issue with unrealistic body standards for men, but I think that's more of a problem with social media rather than too many men being shirtless irl.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This is something people make a far bigger deal about than it is. It's actually not illegal in most places in the US for women to be topless in public.



(Also Minnesota should be light blue as well.)

It's actually been legal in all of Canada for almost 30 years because of a Canadian Supreme Court decision...and guess how often women are seen topless in public in Canada. It also seems the majority of Canadians aren't even aware of this.

So it's almost entirely a social expectations thing than a legal thing.

[dead0man]

This is something people make a far bigger deal about than it is. It's actually not illegal in most places in the US for women to be topless in public.

It's actually been legal in all of Canada for almost 30 years because of a Canadian Supreme Court decision...and guess how often women are seen topless in public in Canada. It also seems the majority of Canadians aren't even aware of this.

So it's almost entirely a social expectations thing than a legal thing.

it's the same with underage drinking laws, it's legal in most states (if done with parents) or cousin marriage (legal in half the states to marry your first cousin, legal in all to marry second cousin)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This is something people make a far bigger deal about than it is. It's actually not illegal in most places in the US for women to be topless in public.

It's actually been legal in all of Canada for almost 30 years because of a Canadian Supreme Court decision...and guess how often women are seen topless in public in Canada. It also seems the majority of Canadians aren't even aware of this.

So it's almost entirely a social expectations thing than a legal thing.

it's the same with underage drinking laws, it's legal in most states (if done with parents) or cousin marriage (legal in half the states to marry your first cousin, legal in all to marry second cousin)

True, but that's not really the issue here, 18-20 year olds often live away from their parents and plenty of scenarios where they thus can't drink that seem really unfair, and I'm not talking about raging college keggers but a 20-year old wanting to have a beer while watching football on a Sunday afternoon like is such a common thing. Although to be fair the odds of a 20-year old having a beer while watching football at home being caught and charged is near zero.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I don't think there's an inherent human or civil right to be topless in public, but there is a civil right to have whatever rule about it there is applied uniformly regardless of sex. As BRTD points out, most states do recognize this, only there's just not that much appetite among women for going topless in most situations, for social and cultural reasons. But I've been to top-optional and even fully clothing-optional beaches and the like in both Europe and Vermont (the Spain of the US when it comes to this sort of thing), and in my experience it's really not as big a deal as most people still seem to think.

[darklordoftech]

This is something people make a far bigger deal about than it is. It's actually not illegal in most places in the US for women to be topless in public.



(Also Minnesota should be light blue as well.)

It's actually been legal in all of Canada for almost 30 years because of a Canadian Supreme Court decision...and guess how often women are seen topless in public in Canada. It also seems the majority of Canadians aren't even aware of this.

So it's almost entirely a social expectations thing than a legal thing.

I find it interesting how little correlation this map has with evangelical populations or whether a state is red or blue.

[ProgressiveModerate]

This is something people make a far bigger deal about than it is. It's actually not illegal in most places in the US for women to be topless in public.



(Also Minnesota should be light blue as well.)

It's actually been legal in all of Canada for almost 30 years because of a Canadian Supreme Court decision...and guess how often women are seen topless in public in Canada. It also seems the majority of Canadians aren't even aware of this.

So it's almost entirely a social expectations thing than a legal thing.

I find it interesting how little correlation this map has with evangelical populations or whether a state is red or blue.

Probably because in mainstream politics it’s a non-issue; many of these laws were likely enacted 50 or 100+ years ago and no one has bothered to change them.

[wnwnwn]

At least public breastfeeding should be permited.

[Del Tachi]

Men are just naturally far more sexually aroused by seeing a woman’s bare breasts than women are by seeing a man’s chest. That’s why women going topless is far more discouraged

If women regularly went topless then men would be desensitized to it and it would be no more sexual than a topless man. 

[wnwnwn]

Men are just naturally far more sexually aroused by seeing a woman’s bare breasts than women are by seeing a man’s chest. That’s why women going topless is far more discouraged

If women regularly went topless then men would be desensitized to it and it would be no more sexual than a topless man.  

That happens in some amazonas and african areas, but it would take a lot of time to get people accostumed.

If topless women became something common, most males would do anything possible to avoid touching by accident a boob in the streets or public transportation. This would generate some funny situations.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Men are just naturally far more sexually aroused by seeing a woman’s bare breasts than women are by seeing a man’s chest. That’s why women going topless is far more discouraged

If women regularly went topless then men would be desensitized to it and it would be no more sexual than a topless man. 

Women walk around in public barefoot all the time so no.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

At least public breastfeeding should be permited.

This is universally legal in the United States. All 50 states and DC have laws protecting it, the last state to pass one was Idaho in 2018: https://www.ncsl.org/health/breastfeeding-state-laws

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Men are just naturally far more sexually aroused by seeing a woman’s bare breasts than women are by seeing a man’s chest. That’s why women going topless is far more discouraged

It's cultural, not natural.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Men are just naturally far more sexually aroused by seeing a woman’s bare breasts than women are by seeing a man’s chest. That’s why women going topless is far more discouraged

If women regularly went topless then men would be desensitized to it and it would be no more sexual than a topless man. 

Women walk around in public barefoot all the time so no.

I'm not sure if fetishes work the same way as non-fetish attraction in this regard.

[President Johnson]

Neutral. I can see both sides having some decent arguments.

[buritobr]

Running on streets close to a beach or in a place close to a swimming poll: OK
University campus: not a good place to go shirtless/topless in public

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This is something people make a far bigger deal about than it is. It's actually not illegal in most places in the US for women to be topless in public.



(Also Minnesota should be light blue as well.)

It's actually been legal in all of Canada for almost 30 years because of a Canadian Supreme Court decision...and guess how often women are seen topless in public in Canada. It also seems the majority of Canadians aren't even aware of this.

So it's almost entirely a social expectations thing than a legal thing.

I find it interesting how little correlation this map has with evangelical populations or whether a state is red or blue.

Probably because in mainstream politics it’s a non-issue; many of these laws were likely enacted 50 or 100+ years ago and no one has bothered to change them.

Some of it also probably has to do with court decisions that nobody bothered to punt up to SCOTUS, since women do sue about this occasionally even though it's not a high-salience issue. I think Utah is in yellow rather than dark red because of a Tenth Circuit decision, for instance.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This is something people make a far bigger deal about than it is. It's actually not illegal in most places in the US for women to be topless in public.



(Also Minnesota should be light blue as well.)

It's actually been legal in all of Canada for almost 30 years because of a Canadian Supreme Court decision...and guess how often women are seen topless in public in Canada. It also seems the majority of Canadians aren't even aware of this.

So it's almost entirely a social expectations thing than a legal thing.

I find it interesting how little correlation this map has with evangelical populations or whether a state is red or blue.

Probably because in mainstream politics it’s a non-issue; many of these laws were likely enacted 50 or 100+ years ago and no one has bothered to change them.

Some of it also probably has to do with court decisions that nobody bothered to punt up to SCOTUS, since women do sue about this occasionally even though it's not a high-salience issue. I think Utah is in yellow rather than dark red because of a Tenth Circuit decision, for instance.

On that note I was slightly incorrect about Canada, the 1991 decision came from the Canadian Court of Appeal (they apparently only have one), and never reached the Supreme Court of Canada. So if any province or municipality wanted to challenge this to the Supreme Court of Canada, they could in theory, but it's such a minor low-salience issue this has not occurred in the 30+ years.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also the most surprising thing about that map in my opinion is the maroon color of Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands as I was under the impression the culture in both the Caribbean and Latin America was far more relaxed about this. Maybe there's an exemption for beaches or something.