Which of these professions should require a Master's degree?
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  Which of these professions should require a Master's degree?
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Author Topic: Which of these professions should require a Master's degree?  (Read 995 times)
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Just Passion Through
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« on: February 11, 2024, 12:32:14 PM »

Two professions that I think would be a lot better if the people working in them had a Master's degree. Finland is the education capital of the West; teachers are required to have a Master's degree along with pedagogical studies and teaching practice. Failure is virtually not an option for students because the teachers they work with do everything they can to prevent it. They are compensated appropriately.

Police officers could certainly use some training in mediation. I support increasing funding for the police for this exact reason. At the bare minimum, departments should require Bachelor's degrees. No more military rejects looking for an excuse to exert authority.

Obviously, both these things are much easier said than done in the US. But having a country where teachers and law enforcement are both respected and in tune with the people they serve is extremely important for social cohesion.
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Flats the Flounder
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2024, 12:42:35 PM »

Two professions that I think would be a lot better if the people working in them had a Master's degree. Finland is the education capital of the West; teachers are required to have a Master's degree along with pedagogical studies and teaching practice. Failure is virtually not an option for students because the teachers they work with do everything they can to prevent it. They are compensated appropriately.

Police officers could certainly use some training in mediation. I support increasing funding for the police for this exact reason. At the bare minimum, departments should require Bachelor's degrees. No more military rejects looking for an excuse to exert authority.

Obviously, both these things are much easier said than done in the US. But having a country where teachers and law enforcement are both respected and in tune with the people they serve is extremely important for social cohesion.

I basically agree with everything you say here. Both professions are, in my opinion, essential, and so it's also essential that we give the people who want to go into these professions the best training they can get.

The tradeoff would absolutely have to be higher wages for those jobs, though. There's simply no way we can get anyone to agree to go into possibly further debt for a job with such barely sustainable wages as it is.
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Vosem
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2024, 12:46:00 PM »

Neither; credentialing requirements make it too difficult for Americans to start careers (especially poorer Americans). Teachers should have a good knowledge of their subject and pedagogical principles, but there's no reason a master's degree should be required (and research has repeatedly shown that teachers with master's degrees are not more effective pedagogues). I don't think police officers should even be required to have a bachelor's degree; police academies exist, and should teach everything required to get someone started (though I think this is a job where a lot of learning very much has to happen on the job), along with any continuing education which may be necessary.

Frankly I'm not even confident that a bachelor's degree should be required for teachers, particularly at the elementary level. Feels like an institution similar to a police academy would be a better fit. (At higher grades, obviously you want a demonstration of deep knowledge of a particular topic, and I think a bachelor's degree in that topic, or a closely associated one, is a reasonable requirement. There's no reason for "education" majors to be a thing, though.)
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lfromnj
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2024, 12:59:02 PM »
« Edited: February 11, 2024, 01:44:47 PM by lfromnj »

Neither; credentialing requirements make it too difficult for Americans to start careers (especially poorer Americans). Teachers should have a good knowledge of their subject and pedagogical principles, but there's no reason a master's degree should be required (and research has repeatedly shown that teachers with master's degrees are not more effective pedagogues). I don't think police officers should even be required to have a bachelor's degree; police academies exist, and should teach everything required to get someone started (though I think this is a job where a lot of learning very much has to happen on the job), along with any continuing education which may be necessary.

Frankly I'm not even confident that a bachelor's degree should be required for teachers, particularly at the elementary level. Feels like an institution similar to a police academy would be a better fit. (At higher grades, obviously you want a demonstration of deep knowledge of a particular topic, and I think a bachelor's degree in that topic, or a closely associated one, is a reasonable requirement. There's no reason for "education" majors to be a thing, though.)

Yes the pay raises associated with master degrees are some of the most inefficient processes in this country for teachers. There could be an argument for testing but unfortunately that is too risky because if it shows any disparity between a group it will literally cost you billions as in NYC.

Regarding police, I don't think Scott falls into this category but I think one reason white liberals propose mandating a degree requirement for cops is that they hate the fact that someone without a degree has a measure of power over them.
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2024, 01:21:13 PM »

Neither; credentialing requirements make it too difficult for Americans to start careers (especially poorer Americans). Teachers should have a good knowledge of their subject and pedagogical principles, but there's no reason a master's degree should be required (and research has repeatedly shown that teachers with master's degrees are not more effective pedagogues). I don't think police officers should even be required to have a bachelor's degree; police academies exist, and should teach everything required to get someone started (though I think this is a job where a lot of learning very much has to happen on the job), along with any continuing education which may be necessary.

Frankly I'm not even confident that a bachelor's degree should be required for teachers, particularly at the elementary level. Feels like an institution similar to a police academy would be a better fit. (At higher grades, obviously you want a demonstration of deep knowledge of a particular topic, and I think a bachelor's degree in that topic, or a closely associated one, is a reasonable requirement. There's no reason for "education" majors to be a thing, though.)

If you could cite the source saying that highly educated teachers are not more effective than less educated teachers, I would appreciate it. But police academies obviously aren't effective as Los Angeles, to borrow an example, has shown. There needs to be serious reform.

I would agree that a Master's shouldn't be required for grades after elementary school, but middle and high schools are another story. That is when kids start to get a taste of the real world. But education needs to be completely rethought in the United States and I want quality teachers to get the same reverence as quality police officers. Faith in institutions has been falling apart for a long time, and that's not good for society at all.
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lfromnj
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2024, 01:25:00 PM »

Neither; credentialing requirements make it too difficult for Americans to start careers (especially poorer Americans). Teachers should have a good knowledge of their subject and pedagogical principles, but there's no reason a master's degree should be required (and research has repeatedly shown that teachers with master's degrees are not more effective pedagogues). I don't think police officers should even be required to have a bachelor's degree; police academies exist, and should teach everything required to get someone started (though I think this is a job where a lot of learning very much has to happen on the job), along with any continuing education which may be necessary.

Frankly I'm not even confident that a bachelor's degree should be required for teachers, particularly at the elementary level. Feels like an institution similar to a police academy would be a better fit. (At higher grades, obviously you want a demonstration of deep knowledge of a particular topic, and I think a bachelor's degree in that topic, or a closely associated one, is a reasonable requirement. There's no reason for "education" majors to be a thing, though.)

If you could cite the source saying that highly educated teachers are not more effective than less educated teachers, I would appreciate it. But police academies obviously aren't effective as Los Angeles, to borrow an example, has shown. There needs to be serious reform.

I would agree that a Master's shouldn't be required for grades after elementary school, but middle and high schools are another story. That is when kids start to get a taste of the real world. But education needs to be completely rethought in the United States and I want quality teachers to get the same reverence as quality police officers. Faith in institutions has been falling apart for a long time, and that's not good for society at all.

How exactly does a masters in education improve a teacher in teaching basic math, science, english? Is it just that the teachers who obtain masters are naturally smarter? In that case ideally we could just establish a testing standard to filter out bad candidates. Unfortunately that isn't legal anymore because of wokies.
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2024, 01:39:16 PM »

Neither; credentialing requirements make it too difficult for Americans to start careers (especially poorer Americans). Teachers should have a good knowledge of their subject and pedagogical principles, but there's no reason a master's degree should be required (and research has repeatedly shown that teachers with master's degrees are not more effective pedagogues). I don't think police officers should even be required to have a bachelor's degree; police academies exist, and should teach everything required to get someone started (though I think this is a job where a lot of learning very much has to happen on the job), along with any continuing education which may be necessary.

Frankly I'm not even confident that a bachelor's degree should be required for teachers, particularly at the elementary level. Feels like an institution similar to a police academy would be a better fit. (At higher grades, obviously you want a demonstration of deep knowledge of a particular topic, and I think a bachelor's degree in that topic, or a closely associated one, is a reasonable requirement. There's no reason for "education" majors to be a thing, though.)

If you could cite the source saying that highly educated teachers are not more effective than less educated teachers, I would appreciate it. But police academies obviously aren't effective as Los Angeles, to borrow an example, has shown. There needs to be serious reform.

I would agree that a Master's shouldn't be required for grades after elementary school, but middle and high schools are another story. That is when kids start to get a taste of the real world. But education needs to be completely rethought in the United States and I want quality teachers to get the same reverence as quality police officers. Faith in institutions has been falling apart for a long time, and that's not good for society at all.

How exactly does a masters in education improve a teacher in teaching basic math, science, english? Is it just that the teachers who obtain masters are naturally smarter? In that case ideally we could just establish a testing standard to filter out bad candidates. Unfortunately that isn't legal anymore because of wokies.

I am contrasting the perception and the success of education in the United States with Finland, where teachers are regarded much in the same way doctors, firefighters, and law enforcement are. Teaching methods are also experimental and flexible.

If there's a good, legitimate reason someone shouldn't become a teacher, filter them out. I don't care about wokeness.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2024, 02:51:50 PM »

Police should absolutely. Not because the degree itself will necessarily better equip them for their job, but because having the requirement will prevent a lot of bad people who shouldn't be cops from wanting to become a cop in the first place.
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2024, 03:04:23 PM »

Neither
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dead0man
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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2024, 03:23:06 PM »

aren't we short of both already?  Where are we going to come up with the people who are smart enough to get a masters degree (unless masters degrees are bullspit and just as easy to get as bachelors, then what's the point?) and want to do these jobs?  Are there even close to enough masters programs to fill the need?  Do grade school teachers teaching regular grade school aged kids really need a masters degree?
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2024, 10:06:54 PM »

Neither.
Police officers need good training, but college isn't the best place for that.
USA need teachers on a large scale and living well.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2024, 10:11:24 PM »

I don't think it's "credentialism" to ask that teachers have an academic background, wtf. Pedagogy IS an academic science, and one that requires a lot of learning to fully internalize. Education is one of the most sacred duties of a society and we owe it to future generation to hold it to high standards.

Cops also need extensive training, of course, and the current state of police training is a sick joke. Learning to be a good police officer is not really an academic process in the same way, though, so the notion of a Master's degree doesn't really apply to it.
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2024, 02:26:15 PM »

Not just neither, but none. Master's degrees shouldn't exist. Most of these programs are a racket for the universities, and the rest could be redesigned as professional credentials.

For police: A two-year degree is a good enough filter. Even that wouldn't be necessary if they weren't giving high school diplomas to anyone who can keep a chair warm. That's in addition to whatever time is necessary to get through a service academy.

For teachers: We should bring back specialized "normal schools" where the focus is on the practice of teaching.
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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2024, 09:15:17 PM »

Neither
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2024, 09:40:45 PM »

Not just neither, but none. Master's degrees shouldn't exist. Most of these programs are a racket for the universities, and the rest could be redesigned as professional credentials.

For police: A two-year degree is a good enough filter. Even that wouldn't be necessary if they weren't giving high school diplomas to anyone who can keep a chair warm. That's in addition to whatever time is necessary to get through a service academy.

For teachers: We should bring back specialized "normal schools" where the focus is on the practice of teaching.

That's fair. Now we're talking about a radical reform of post-secondary education, which I'm all on board for at least in principle (not sure how much we'd agree on the particulars).

But the point remains that whatever the structure of a post-secondary education, teachers need a significant amount of it in order to adequately prepare them to what is an extraordinarily difficult and socially valuable job.
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2024, 11:03:17 PM »

Education inflation, in general, needs to stop.
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John Dule
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2024, 03:29:04 AM »

The skill sets that make a good teacher or a good police officer are completely disconnected from the skills it takes to obtain a Master's degree.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2024, 06:08:23 PM »

Police should absolutely. Not because the degree itself will necessarily better equip them for their job, but because having the requirement will prevent a lot of bad people who shouldn't be cops from wanting to become a cop in the first place.

What are you even talking about?
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« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2024, 09:08:45 PM »

Neither.

The police question seems so obvious to me that I won't address it. As far as teaching goes, my thoughts are:

The only advantage I can see to a masters program in education/pedagogy is that these often require a practicum which provides hands-on experience. These are much more valuable than taking a handful of pedagogical theory classes, and I think it's harder to ask of an undergraduate student than of a master's student.

But, masters classes in an academic setting will probably require immersion in pedagogical theory, and currently pedagogical/educational research space is an absolute disaster. This space, like a lot of other areas of higher education, has been co-opted by ideologues. I don't think taking classes in an academic setting following "cutting edge" pedagogical research will make you a better teacher. I don't think being immersed in modern pedagogical theory is itself going to make you a bad teacher, but education graduate programs focus entirely too much on academic fads ("critical pedagogy") and less on practical basics of teaching. It's not worth asking people who are interested in teaching to sit through two or more years of this stuff, especially when they're on the hook financially for it.

So while I agree that some form of pedagogical training is beneficial or even necessary, I don't think a masters degree-granting program is the best way to achieve this. I'd rather focus on more experience-based training than having students write term papers on nonsense that passes as "research". In short, although I don't know how effective the alternatives would be, I'm confident that moving educational training away from the degree-granting university campus model and towards something else would, at the very least, not make for lower quality teachers.
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John Dule
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« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2024, 10:30:20 PM »

Police should absolutely. Not because the degree itself will necessarily better equip them for their job, but because having the requirement will prevent a lot of bad people who shouldn't be cops from wanting to become a cop in the first place.

What are you even talking about?

He thinks being in academia makes you a good person.
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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2024, 12:37:07 AM »

Police should absolutely. Not because the degree itself will necessarily better equip them for their job, but because having the requirement will prevent a lot of bad people who shouldn't be cops from wanting to become a cop in the first place.

What are you even talking about?
I'm guessing he believes that there's a correlation between intelligence and ignorance even though there isn't.
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« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2024, 08:47:12 PM »

Belated thought, but a lot of Americans take for granted that medical and legal education have to be a certain way. Plenty of countries allow people to train for these professions without the costly and time-consuming obstacle of doing a separate undergraduate degree first.
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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2024, 02:48:38 AM »

I know somebody who went through a bachelor's degree program for elementary education, and in my unprofessional opinion, everything of use could have been fit in maybe 2 years. The program had a ton of fluff and unnecessary gen-ed and distribution requirements. There was useful information on theory and practical education in there, but it was surrounded by loads of nonsense.

I think nationwide reform on this topic would be a good idea. Shorter (2 year?) programs followed by certs should be the standard, with the relative few who chose to go into the study of education at the graduate level continuing on.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2024, 03:51:41 PM »

Police should absolutely. Not because the degree itself will necessarily better equip them for their job, but because having the requirement will prevent a lot of bad people who shouldn't be cops from wanting to become a cop in the first place.

What are you even talking about?

He thinks being in academia makes you a good person.

No, thatís not what Iím saying.

Iím saying that itís far too easy to become a cop. Making it too easy to become a cop attracts a lower quality of applicants.

Itís not about the masters degree itself, itís about the time and commitment.
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John Dule
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« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2024, 06:20:21 PM »

Police should absolutely. Not because the degree itself will necessarily better equip them for their job, but because having the requirement will prevent a lot of bad people who shouldn't be cops from wanting to become a cop in the first place.

What are you even talking about?

He thinks being in academia makes you a good person.

No, thatís not what Iím saying.

Iím saying that itís far too easy to become a cop. Making it too easy to become a cop attracts a lower quality of applicants.

Itís not about the masters degree itself, itís about the time and commitment.

And your solution to this problem is to erect pointless and wasteful barriers to entry that have nothing to do with the skills one needs to be a successful policeman? Brilliant.
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