Should all illegal immigrants with no exceptions whatsoever be deported?

[Mesu]

Please tell me Mesu, are you for real or do you happen to be joking?

The way I said it sounds like I was joking because it sounded like circumventing bad laws was the best reason for chain immigration. Really it the individual circumstances of the family immigrating that is good about anchor babies.

I do believe that the immigration laws were a bad idea back when they were originally passed and they are a bad idea for the future.

Think about this for a second: If immigrating illegally is a crime then the Border Angels are aiding and abedding a crime and are criminals themselves. Before you agree that they are know that you'd be calling people who give water to people dying of thrist in the desert criminals. That sounds messed up to me.

Yeah, how dare we even have borders.  That's just not fair to those who want to come in.  After all, we should be happy to pay increased taxes for the rest of the world's education, higher insurance premiums for their medical care, as well as increased taxes for more public assistance if they need a little bit more for their families.  After all, I know that's the reason I work -  to subsidize hordes of illegals who ignore our laws and break into the country.  Glad to help.

Oh, and I'm happy to let them steal my identity if they so choose.  Help yourself to my social security number Jose.

It's the same fairness of denying someone who came 133 years or more ago that know one complains about.

[agcatter]

Snowguy,
As far as the corporate types who hire illegals.  I happen to agree.  McCain, martinez,  graham, Hagel, i have no use for them regardless of the R by their name.  Same with Senor Bush.  His stance totally pisses me off.  He and his country club pals sneer at the base and are all about hiring cheap labor.
                                                                                                                     What you left out  (conveniently) are the open border lefties in your party.  Kennedy and the 80 % of Dem Senators who support  this joke of a bill that won't do a damned thing to stop the flow.  But of course, we all know what that's about.  Lot's of future low wage Democratic voters dependent on an expanded government welfare state.  That's the other side of the equation.  It's an unholy alliance between business that cares only about making a buck and libs who can't wait to expand their voting base.  Both are selling out the country.

You made some good points about the business side of it.  The obnoxious comments just make you look like an ass.

[CultureKing]

I dont really get how illegal immigrants are bad economically. The benifit they give in terms of labor far outweighs any cost to the education or health care systems. Though I must say the best way to deal with all this is just give them amnesty, then they as citizens will pay taxes while for the most part working the same jobs. I just dont see these people as a problem for the US, they're hard working and deserve a part of the american dream, and we for our part need to help them and abandon our self-centered holier-than-thou ideologies.

[Gabu]

While many say I am cruel and impractical my plan remains the best:

All illegal immigrants will be deported back on Greyhound buses and they will pay their own fare

Uh, the reason that they go to America is because they have no money, and want to earn some.

[Ebowed]

Anchor babies existing is good thing. They circumvent immigration laws that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Agreed.

[CARLHAYDEN]

I dont really get how illegal immigrants are bad economically. The benifit they give in terms of labor far outweighs any cost to the education or health care systems. Though I must say the best way to deal with all this is just give them amnesty, then they as citizens will pay taxes while for the most part working the same jobs. I just dont see these people as a problem for the US, they're hard working and deserve a part of the american dream, and we for our part need to help them and abandon our self-centered holier-than-thou ideologies.

Let me suggest you review the data in the following url, them perhaps you'll understand that your assumptions are entirely incorrect.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/sr14.cfm

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Either enslave them openly or toss them out.

[Stranger in a strange land]

No. The solution to illegal immigration is better labor laws and better enforcement of existing labor laws.

[Mesu]

I dont really get how illegal immigrants are bad economically. The benifit they give in terms of labor far outweighs any cost to the education or health care systems. Though I must say the best way to deal with all this is just give them amnesty, then they as citizens will pay taxes while for the most part working the same jobs. I just dont see these people as a problem for the US, they're hard working and deserve a part of the american dream, and we for our part need to help them and abandon our self-centered holier-than-thou ideologies.

Let me suggest you review the data in the following url, them perhaps you'll understand that your assumptions are entirely incorrect.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/sr14.cfm

What that data doesn't address is the cost of creating a full proof way of keeping more illegal immigrants from crossing the border. It would be extremely expensive I would think(plus it people wouldn't completely support the idea). That would be added on top of the loss the benefit lost.

Either enslave them openly or toss them out.

And you asked me if i'm for real?

[CARLHAYDEN]

I dont really get how illegal immigrants are bad economically. The benifit they give in terms of labor far outweighs any cost to the education or health care systems. Though I must say the best way to deal with all this is just give them amnesty, then they as citizens will pay taxes while for the most part working the same jobs. I just dont see these people as a problem for the US, they're hard working and deserve a part of the american dream, and we for our part need to help them and abandon our self-centered holier-than-thou ideologies.

Let me suggest you review the data in the following url, them perhaps you'll understand that your assumptions are entirely incorrect.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/sr14.cfm

What that data doesn't address is the cost of creating a full proof way of keeping more illegal immigrants from crossing the border. It would be extremely expensive I would think(plus it people wouldn't completely support the idea). That would be added on top of the loss the benefit lost.

Either enslave them openly or toss them out.

And you asked me if i'm for real?

I think you meant to say "fool proof."

Well, perfection is NOT the objective, but reasonable security levels are.

Hey, people escape from maximun security prisons.

Further, the Congress has already voted for border security, its just that the Bush administration is dragging its feet on implementing the measures Congress has authoritized.

[Mesu]

I think you meant to say "fool proof."

Well, perfection is NOT the objective, but reasonable security levels are.

Hey, people escape from maximun security prisons.

Further, the Congress has already voted for border security, its just that the Bush administration is dragging its feet on implementing the measures Congress has authoritized.

It just seemed strange that they would write a very long and detailed paper and not include the current cost of border patrol which is $1.8 billion annually when alot of people think it should be much larger. Or any estimated deportation costs.

I'm not convinced anyone who doesn't have a net positive effect on the economy shouldn't be here though. The articule suggested that people who don't pay $30,000 a year in taxes and use many of those government services are not good for the economy(if that's the case most of nebraska could be deported if that was all that was required). After reading parts of that I'm still skepitical that low income immigrants are bad for the economy.

Another is they lump education in with cost of illegal immigrants. I don't feel that is appropiate since the immigrants children are the ones receiving that benefits and their impact on the economy will be determined later in their life.

Also the dropout rates for illegal immigrants being high now than in the past shouldn't be taken to assume it will always be higher.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

I dont really get how illegal immigrants are bad economically. The benifit they give in terms of labor far outweighs any cost to the education or health care systems. Though I must say the best way to deal with all this is just give them amnesty, then they as citizens will pay taxes while for the most part working the same jobs. I just dont see these people as a problem for the US, they're hard working and deserve a part of the american dream, and we for our part need to help them and abandon our self-centered holier-than-thou ideologies.

Let me suggest you review the data in the following url, them perhaps you'll understand that your assumptions are entirely incorrect.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/sr14.cfm

What that data doesn't address is the cost of creating a full proof way of keeping more illegal immigrants from crossing the border. It would be extremely expensive I would think(plus it people wouldn't completely support the idea). That would be added on top of the loss the benefit lost.

Either enslave them openly or toss them out.

And you asked me if i'm for real?

I am for real on that.

[CARLHAYDEN]

I think you meant to say "fool proof."

Well, perfection is NOT the objective, but reasonable security levels are.

Hey, people escape from maximun security prisons.

Further, the Congress has already voted for border security, its just that the Bush administration is dragging its feet on implementing the measures Congress has authoritized.

It just seemed strange that they would write a very long and detailed paper and not include the current cost of border patrol which is $1.8 billion annually when alot of people think it should be much larger. Or any estimated deportation costs.

I'm not convinced anyone who doesn't have a net positive effect on the economy shouldn't be here though. The articule suggested that people who don't pay $30,000 a year in taxes and use many of those government services are not good for the economy(if that's the case most of nebraska could be deported if that was all that was required). After reading parts of that I'm still skepitical that low income immigrants are bad for the economy.

Another is they lump education in with cost of illegal immigrants. I don't feel that is appropiate since the immigrants children are the ones receiving that benefits and their impact on the economy will be determined later in their life.

Also the dropout rates for illegal immigrants being high now than in the past shouldn't be taken to assume it will always be higher.

Well Mesu, my response was to your allegation that economically illegal aliens are a net benefit. 

It seems to me that you are shifting your ground somewhat.

Also, you really should reread the article, the article as you seem to have badly misunderstood it.  It calculated that the net difference between income and outgo for illegal aliens was so high because illegal aliens use public services to a far greater extent that typical Americans.

Now, you are free to be "skeptical" but please do not make future assertions that the illegal aliens are a net benefit, which is clearly contraindicated by the facts.

Turning now to the cost of "education," let me advise you that it costs far more to educate the children of illegal aliens than it does to educate the average American child.

[MaC]

No, but they should be fed to the lions.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Current illegal immigrants should be given amnesty with a clear path towards citizenship that allows them to stay in the country.  Both illegal immigrants and their employers should be equally responsible for any back taxes owed, and they must be paid in full before citizenship can be attained.  No guest worker program.  Come here to be an American, not to make a quick buck and take off.

Beef up border control and have a much stronger human presence along the border.  We can use volunteer organizations and the military to do this.

Make legal immigration easier for people who want to become American citizens.  Allow only those that intend to stay in the U.S. for life citizenship.

A basic comprehension of English would be prudent.  This is necessary in order to understand traffic signs and to summon help in an emergency.

Enforce labor laws that prohibit hiring illegal immigrants and make education of new immigrants/citizens in regards to labor rights/laws a top priority.  A well educated worker is the best defense against companies trying to take advantage of "cheap labor."

Give non-Americans the opportunity to come to this country and succeed in a legal manner.  All I ask is that new immigrants make a full commitment to America.  We can't afford free loaders.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Current illegal immigrants should be given amnesty with a clear path towards citizenship that allows them to stay in the country.  Both illegal immigrants and their employers should be equally responsible for any back taxes owed, and they must be paid in full before citizenship can be attained.  No guest worker program.  Come here to be an American, not to make a quick buck and take off.

Beef up border control and have a much stronger human presence along the border.  We can use volunteer organizations and the military to do this.

Make legal immigration easier for people who want to become American citizens.  Allow only those that intend to stay in the U.S. for life citizenship.

A basic comprehension of English would be prudent.  This is necessary in order to understand traffic signs and to summon help in an emergency.

Enforce labor laws that prohibit hiring illegal immigrants and make education of new immigrants/citizens in regards to labor rights/laws a top priority.  A well educated worker is the best defense against companies trying to take advantage of "cheap labor."

Give non-Americans the opportunity to come to this country and succeed in a legal manner.  All I ask is that new immigrants make a full commitment to America.  We can't afford free loaders.

First, I want to thank you for being honest about supporting amnesty.  Too many supporters of amnesty try to play absurd games denying that what they support is in truth amnesty.

Second, it is nice to see that you agree that illegal aliens should pay back taxes.  Now, if we could only convice Bush and his cronies of that.

Third, I once supported guest worker programs (hell, in 1986 I supported the Reagan amnesty bill) but now agree with you that a guest worker program is a bad idea.

Fourth, yes we need to "beef up border control," but Bush is adamantly opposed to this.  When Congress appropriates money for this purpose, he deliberately, willfully, and maliciously uses the money instead to harass American citizens who live in the Border area.  I can cite two projects within an hour's drive of my home as examples.

Fifth, millions of aliens legally come into this country every year. 

Sixth, most of the illegal aliens presently in the country are "sorjourners" who come here to make some money and then return home.  The are not interested in becoming citizens.  Indeed, less than forty percent of the people obtaining amnesty under the 1986 bill ever became citizens.

Seventh, while a basic understanding of English should not only be "prudent," it seems to me that it should be mandatory for those seeking to legally live and work in this county.

Eighth, I strongly agree with you that existing labor laws prohibiting the employment of illegal aliens should be enforced.  The Bush administration has deliberately, intentionally, and willfully refused to enforce such laws except on very rare occasions (he's worse than Clinton in this respect).

Ninth, I don't know if you are aware of it, by S. 1348 would actually have adversely impacted the ability of highly skilled/talented people to come to this country to work! 

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

ABSOLUTELY!

[Mesu]

Well Mesu, my response was to your allegation that economically illegal aliens are a net benefit. 

It seems to me that you are shifting your ground somewhat.

I just wanted to clearify that whether or not there is a net benefit isn't the reason I support amnesty and open borders. I suspect alot of the anti immigration peoples decision wouldn't be effected by whether or not it is a net benefit either.

Also, you really should reread the article, the article as you seem to have badly misunderstood it.  It calculated that the net difference between income and outgo for illegal aliens was so high because illegal aliens use public services to a far greater extent that typical Americans.

Now, you are free to be "skeptical" but please do not make future assertions that the illegal aliens are a net benefit, which is clearly contraindicated by the facts.

The article states that the average american uses $23,000 in social programs. While that is significantly less than $30,000, it is still more than anyone I know pays in taxes. It seems like there would be a better way of determining net economic benefit.

Turning now to the cost of "education," let me advise you that it costs far more to educate the children of illegal aliens than it does to educate the average American child.

It could be that some of those extra cost are because of unfamilarity with teaching students whose first language is spanish. Over time those costs should go down a bit.

A basic comprehension of English would be prudent.  This is necessary in order to understand traffic signs and to summon help in an emergency.

Seventh, while a basic understanding of English should not only be "prudent," it seems to me that it should be mandatory for those seeking to legally live and work in this county.

Why is that anyways? It has been shown by illegal immigrants that people can live and work in this country without learning english(plus they'll probably learn english anyways over time).

(I am strongly opposed to english-only laws mostly because some of my ancestors where forced to learn english-only at indian boarding schools)

[CARLHAYDEN]

First, its nice of you to admit that the economic impact is not your primary basis for supporting illegal aliens coming into the country.

Second, with respect to the cost/benefit, legal aliens both use less in services and pay more in taxes, as is the case with the native born.

Third, you are also wrong about the cost of educationing the children of illegals.  What has happened is that federal judges have decreed that the most expensive and inefficent method be utilized. 

Fourth, you engage in the left-wing fallacious attempt to mislead with you "english only."  English should be the official language, and government should have no power to prevent you from speaking gibberish, or any other language you prefer.  However, mechants should have the right to refuse you service if you decline to speak English, and official business of government should be conducted in English.

[Mesu]

Second, with respect to the cost/benefit, legal aliens both use less in services and pay more in taxes, as is the case with the native born.

But a significant portion of american citizens don't pay $23,000 or more in taxes. Which is the average that would need to pay to net tax contributors according to the article.

Third, you are also wrong about the cost of educationing the children of illegals.  What has happened is that federal judges have decreed that the most expensive and inefficent method be utilized. 

That doesn't mean we can't find ways to lower those cost over time.

Fourth, you engage in the left-wing fallacious attempt to mislead with you "english only."  English should be the official language, and government should have no power to prevent you from speaking gibberish, or any other language you prefer.  However, mechants should have the right to refuse you service if you decline to speak English, and official business of government should be conducted in English.

I didn't realize there was a difference between english only and english as the official language(I never assumed it keep people from speaking other languages in their private life though). Still if your suggesting it be required for someone to be a citizen then it must have some effect on people that aren't merchants or lawmakers.

 Also you didn't answer my question of why is should be mandatory. If it's just an preference based on tradition or something else you should probably make that clear to avoid confusion. 

(Edited because of a typo: "are" should have been "aren't")

[AkSaber]

No, that would be a massive waste of time and resources.

I think the border should be secured. Then all illegals would be given a certain amount of time to register with the INS, and pay back taxes. Then after the registration period ends, all illegals who didn't register would be deported. And all illegals who registered and who didn't commit felonies would then become legal immigrants. Then, if they wanted to, could start the whole becoming a citizen thing. They wouldn't get any special treatment. They'd complete the process like everyone else.

I wouldn't make any illegals citizens. That would just piss is the face of all who became citizens legally.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Second, with respect to the cost/benefit, legal aliens both use less in services and pay more in taxes, as is the case with the native born.

But a significant portion of american citizens don't pay $23,000 or more in taxes. Which is the average that would need to pay to net tax contributors according to the article.

Third, you are also wrong about the cost of educationing the children of illegals.  What has happened is that federal judges have decreed that the most expensive and inefficent method be utilized. 

That doesn't mean we can't find ways to lower those cost over time.

Fourth, you engage in the left-wing fallacious attempt to mislead with you "english only."  English should be the official language, and government should have no power to prevent you from speaking gibberish, or any other language you prefer.  However, mechants should have the right to refuse you service if you decline to speak English, and official business of government should be conducted in English.

I didn't realize there was a difference between english only and english as the official language(I never assumed it keep people from speaking other languages in their private life though). Still if your suggesting it be required for someone to be a citizen then it must have some effect on people that are merchants or lawmakers.

 Also you didn't answer my question of why is should be mandatory. If it's just an preference based on tradition or something else you should probably make that clear to avoid confusion. 

Lets look at the three points you sort of contested.

First, you are comparing apples to oranges.  The computations which you do not contest note that the illegal aliens are a net drain.  Just because some current citizens are a net drain does not mean that therefor we should add more net losers.

Second, we do have now more effective and cost efficent methods to teach English.  The problem is that the judges are determined to inflict the more costly and less effective means.

Third, if you want to go around mumbling gibberish, well that's you right.  However, if you want to require others to communicate with you in gibberish, that is NOT your right.

[Mesu]

Lets look at the three points you sort of contested.

First, you are comparing apples to oranges.  The computations which you do not contest note that the illegal aliens are a net drain.  Just because some current citizens are a net drain does not mean that therefor we should add more net losers.

What i'm saying is it's seems very likely that alot the current citizens this report show to be a net drain actually aren't. Because that is a large number of people. I think the report overstates the impact of illegal immigrants significantly. As far as goals for the type of immigrants we should get, that could take care of itself in the long run.

Second, we do have now more effective and cost efficent methods to teach English.  The problem is that the judges are determined to inflict the more costly and less effective means.

What I was saying was when a method is first introduced the costs per student should be at their peak. Over time the costs should go down. If it goes down from much more expensive than an average american to slightly more expensive than an average american that is a very good thing as far as i'm concerned.

Third, if you want to go around mumbling gibberish, well that's you right.  However, if you want to require others to communicate with you in gibberish, that is NOT your right.

You dodged the question again(why does it need to be mandatory?). It's possible you're actually worried that you'll be forced to speak spanish someday. But only in the most extreme circumstances would the official language be made spanish and according to you that won't really a negative effect on anyone. I can admit my reasons for being against english as the official could be mostly based irrational sentiment but it seems your reasons why you are for it are also.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I guess this is really dumb but I just realized that everytime I say something BRTD makes a thread about it

[CARLHAYDEN]

Lets look at the three points you sort of contested.

First, you are comparing apples to oranges.  The computations which you do not contest note that the illegal aliens are a net drain.  Just because some current citizens are a net drain does not mean that therefor we should add more net losers.

What i'm saying is it's seems very likely that alot the current citizens this report show to be a net drain actually aren't. Because that is a large number of people. I think the report overstates the impact of illegal immigrants significantly. As far as goals for the type of immigrants we should get, that could take care of itself in the long run.

Second, we do have now more effective and cost efficent methods to teach English.  The problem is that the judges are determined to inflict the more costly and less effective means.

What I was saying was when a method is first introduced the costs per student should be at their peak. Over time the costs should go down. If it goes down from much more expensive than an average american to slightly more expensive than an average american that is a very good thing as far as i'm concerned.

Third, if you want to go around mumbling gibberish, well that's you right.  However, if you want to require others to communicate with you in gibberish, that is NOT your right.

You dodged the question again(why does it need to be mandatory?). It's possible you're actually worried that you'll be forced to speak spanish someday. But only in the most extreme circumstances would the official language be made spanish and according to you that won't really a negative effect on anyone. I can admit my reasons for being against english as the official could be mostly based irrational sentiment but it seems your reasons why you are for it are also.

Mesu, when I provide specific facts, you respond that you think or fell it just isn't so because, you claim to think/feel that way.  You have absolutely no credible evidence to support your feelings.

Next, the system ordered by the federal judges is not some "new" system which will have cost reductions, but rather an old and failed system which is proven to be highly ineffective. 

I suggest you need look no further than Canada where people ARE compelled to be bilingual.  Indeed, in this country we print ballots in Spanish.

I have never "doged" any issue in this debate, you have however.

Next, you simply lie.  I NEVER said "that won't really a negative effect on anyone."

Finally, yes you "reasons for geing against (E)nglish as the official (language is) irrational."