Resolution on the issue of Atlasian recognition of the USA [Failed]

[Colin]

Well then my prior objections stand. I would be willing to promote some sort of public debate on the issue followed by a public referendum on the future of Atlasian-US relations, however it is my belief, from years of service to Atlasia, that committees that take time to study issues usually do nothing more than end up inactive and do nothing more than make an actual problem "disappear" do to lack of involvement.

So I would have nothing wrong with a resolution promoting a frank and honest discussion among all Atlasians concerning this problem and I would have no problem with the calling of a public referendum with multiple options concerning the future state of affairs between the United States and Atlasia. However as I said before the current resolution is nothing but sillyness and is truely a dishonour to those who want to see a true solution and common application of the status of the Atlasian state in the international arena.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I think we should vote on an amendment to replace this whole bill with the bill TrueDem came up with

[Colin]

I think we should vote on an amendment to replace this whole bill with the bill TrueDem came up with

I fail to see where True Dem brought forward an amendment to this bill for consideration and review by the Senate. I have only seen him make comments concerning the nature of a "national discussion" on the issue.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I think we should vote on an amendment to replace this whole bill with the bill TrueDem came up with

I fail to see where True Dem brought forward an amendment to this bill for consideration and review by the Senate. I have only seen him make comments concerning the nature of a "national discussion" on the issue.

He proposed a bill that I am now sponsoring that can be found in the legislation introduction thread.  I think we could all agree to just replace this bill with that.

[Colin]

I think we should vote on an amendment to replace this whole bill with the bill TrueDem came up with

I fail to see where True Dem brought forward an amendment to this bill for consideration and review by the Senate. I have only seen him make comments concerning the nature of a "national discussion" on the issue.

He proposed a bill that I am now sponsoring that can be found in the legislation introduction thread.  I think we could all agree to just replace this bill with that.

Having read through it my immediate problem with the bill is the creation of a committee. As I stated before in my long history of government service in Atlasia I have never seen a committee created by the Senate fulfill its goal to the degree that the solution is able to be implemented into law. Committees either disband after a while do to lack of interest, or never come up with a full report and drag on for months, or come back with very loose and fluid answers to the questions at hand. I've never seen a committee actually create a national discussion on an issue, if anything a committee usually serves to bury the issue by dragging out proceedings for months at a time. Committees in Atlasia sweep major issues under the rug instead of trying to actively solve them.

For these reasons I would be very leery of any committee being formed to discuss these issues. I have nothing wrong with an informal, or formal, discussion among Atlasian voters as to their opinions, culminating in a referenda on the issue, but I do not believe that a committee would do anything more than stall this issue and sweep another major problem that must be solved under the rug.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Why form another committee? Is the Senate not a good enough place for debating important issues?

[True Democrat]

I believe a committee worked well with the micronation issue, so I don't see why it cannot work well with this issue.  I believe a formalized committee would be a better place than the Senate for a number of reasons.  First, its primary concern would be on this issue, as opposed to the Senate which has to deal with many other bills and issues.  A separate committee would have the ability to call for interviews and statements, while I have rarely seen this from the Senate because of how busy the Senate is.  Also, members from every branch of the federal government, a representative from the regional governments, and ordinary citizens can serve on the committee.  This diversity will allow a wider array of opinions.  For these reasons, I believe a committee is the best way to come up with a comprehensive policy.

[Colin]

I believe a committee worked well with the micronation issue, so I don't see why it cannot work well with this issue.

Well I actually believe that the micronation committee did nothing or, at least, they let the issue slip away and kept the status quo without considering other options. Like most committees it let the issue die away without actually coming out with a formal analysis of the problems at hand.

A formalized committee, with its structure and all the aspects of forming such a body as well as writing reports and setting up all these interviews as such, would be too tedious for the issue of whether or not we should retain the status quo. The options, in my mind, are simple and easy enough for all Atlasians to comprehend them. Either we retain the status quo or we recognize that Atlasia and America are two different entities and that the reality that we live in is nearly the same as that of the real world. If the people vote to recognize that Atlasia and America are two seperate nations then we can work out the details from there, since a committee would be a complete waste of time if the people didn't agree that we need to change the current status quo.

I have a compromise idea though. A public referendum will be held with two options, one being the maintaining of the status quo and the other being the recognition of America and the creation of a seperate Atlasian entity. If a majority vote for the second option then it probably would be in the nations best interest to set up a committee to debate the proper form that this new Atlasian entity should take.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I propose scrapping the entire bill and replacing it with:

Upon the passage of this bill, the United States Relations Commission shall be created with the following guidelines:
     a. The said commission shall be composed of the following:
            i. One member of the executive branch, as chosen by the President, with the possibility of the President himself,
           ii. Two members of the Senate, as chosen by the Senate at large, to be determined by a first past the post system of voting in the Senate with the top two recipients of votes being elected to serve on the commission,
          iii. One member of the Supreme Court, with the members of the Supreme Court choosing its representive in the same manner as the Senate,
          iv. One governor, as chosen by the governors as a whole by a first past the post system identical to the one used to elect the representatives from the Senate, and
         v. Two other citizens of Atlasia chosen the President, with no requirements on holding or not holding office for any of these citizens.
     b. The said commission shall elect a President and a Vice President to guide debate.
     c. In addition to the inclusion of a President and Vice President, the commission shall create its own rules and procedures and debate, including entertaining statements by citizens of Atlasia who are not members of the Commission and asking other citizens to appear for question and answer sessions.
     d. The primary goal of the said commission shall be to provide a comprehensive policy to the Senate on the possible recognition of the United States, with the topics including the following, but no limited to:
         i. Recognition of the United States,
         ii. Divergence from actual history,
         iii. The budget of Atlasia with regard to the United States,
         iv. The role of the Game Moderator, and
         v. The population, power, and status of Atlasia if it were to recognize the United States
     e. The Commission shall create a final report on its findings on the said issues to present to the Senate.
     f. The report of the commission shall not become law, but shall be used by the Senate for future consideration on this issue.

[Colin]

As I have said before I am quite leery of the idea of a committee to discuss the issue of recognition of the United States before consulting the Atlasian people about whether they would want to retain the status quo or recognize the United States. I would be content, as I stated above, if a committee was formed after a majority voted for the recognition of the United States since then many different variables, such as world history between 2004-2007 and the location and composition of the Atlasian state, would have to be considered.

I would consider it a waste of time to consult only the opinions of 6 people and whoever they want to interview when we can easily see, through public referenda, what the opinion of a much larger body of Atlasian voters. It would be a waste of time for such a committee to form, take its merry old time deciding anything, release a report, if they ever do release one, in November, and then have the Atlasian people vote against the proposals anyway and we remain in the same effective position vis-a-vis the United States of America as we are now.

[True Democrat]

Mr. President, I believe you have put forward a fair compromise that I believe I could support.  A referendum should be held on the issue, and if the results favor recognizing the United States as a separate nation, then a committee should be formed.

[Sam Spade]

That is an acceptable idea to me, Mr. President.  FWIW...

[Sam Spade]

Minor query:  I am assuming that after the public talk period is over, an amendment will be made for a public referendum on the Atlasia/US.

I would like to suggest to the Senate that we table this legislation.  Once a public referendum has been drafted and posted on the Legislation Intro Thread, I will put that legislation on the fast track towards debate and approval.

Unless, of course, we have the referendum language drafted and want to adopt it now (with a certain period set aside for debate).  Then please post it here and we'll vote on it.

I'm just hoping to speed the legislative process on, that's all.

[Sam Spade]

bumping for thoughts on my post above...

[Colin]

Minor query:  I am assuming that after the public talk period is over, an amendment will be made for a public referendum on the Atlasia/US.

Well it will definitely be over by the time the Senate actually gets to tabling this bill and passing some sort of public referenda idea as I proposed above. I really didn't have a set time for this public discussion to last and wanted it to be a more free and open discourse than anything set in stone. Mostly to make people aware of the debate and to participate in it themselves.

It may be easier just to introduce any proposed public referenda legislation as an amendment to this current legislation, striking the current text. I currently do not have a text for any such bill/amendment, and I really am horrible at writing bills that's the reason I've always differed to others to turn my ideas into legislation.

[Sam Spade]

I'm starting a vote on DWTL's amendment this afternoon.

[Sam Spade]

Make it this evening...

Voting is now open on this amendment:

I propose scrapping the entire bill and replacing it with:

Upon the passage of this bill, the United States Relations Commission shall be created with the following guidelines:
     a. The said commission shall be composed of the following:
            i. One member of the executive branch, as chosen by the President, with the possibility of the President himself,
           ii. Two members of the Senate, as chosen by the Senate at large, to be determined by a first past the post system of voting in the Senate with the top two recipients of votes being elected to serve on the commission,
          iii. One member of the Supreme Court, with the members of the Supreme Court choosing its representive in the same manner as the Senate,
          iv. One governor, as chosen by the governors as a whole by a first past the post system identical to the one used to elect the representatives from the Senate, and
         v. Two other citizens of Atlasia chosen the President, with no requirements on holding or not holding office for any of these citizens.
     b. The said commission shall elect a President and a Vice President to guide debate.
     c. In addition to the inclusion of a President and Vice President, the commission shall create its own rules and procedures and debate, including entertaining statements by citizens of Atlasia who are not members of the Commission and asking other citizens to appear for question and answer sessions.
     d. The primary goal of the said commission shall be to provide a comprehensive policy to the Senate on the possible recognition of the United States, with the topics including the following, but no limited to:
         i. Recognition of the United States,
         ii. Divergence from actual history,
         iii. The budget of Atlasia with regard to the United States,
         iv. The role of the Game Moderator, and
         v. The population, power, and status of Atlasia if it were to recognize the United States
     e. The Commission shall create a final report on its findings on the said issues to present to the Senate.
     f. The report of the commission shall not become law, but shall be used by the Senate for future consideration on this issue.

Please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

[Ebowed]

Aye

[minionofmidas]

Nay.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Aye

[Sam Spade]

Abstain

[Keystone Phil]

Nay

[PBrunsel]

Nay

[Brandon H]

Abstain

[Ebowed]

I change my vote to Nay.