Religious denomination of Southern elites

[100% pro-life no matter what]

I kind of suspect that Southern Episcopalians are one of the groups most likely to be white Democrats in the South.

Remember that despite what Atlas likes to believe, religious affiliation is not static amongst generations. Plenty of conservatives brought up Episcopalian there have likely gone Southern Baptist/Pentecostal/etc. People who are still Episcopalian can't be that socially conservative.

Why would someone that is convinced of Episcopal/anglican theology become a Baptist over just politics. When the ACNA exist. There are larger issues some people will not sacrafice like the liturgy. I'm not an anglican/episcopalian but i would find it hard to go from liturgical service to something else

Also you might find this data interesting this data from all anglican churches not just the Episcopal.  I can't post links yet but here. www pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/religious-denomination/anglican-church/

58% Republican/leanRep. 5% no lean, 37% Democrat/leanDem

The real question mark is where young credobaptists on the socially moderate/progressive side will end up over time?  The ABC USA has been in long term decline and is probably too small to revive at this point.  Perhaps this is the most fertile ground for a new denomination that eventually includes several % of the population?

I'd guess certain types of non-denominational churches might be where people like that would go.  Of course, you have examples like BRTD's church, but there are other explicitly progressive churches that stylistically might look like a SBC church.  Although, there are certainly people who wouldn't want an explicitly progressive church either, so non-denominational churches are a spectrum.

Within a half hour drive, I could easily wind up at non-denominational churches with a range of beliefs from "if you're not speaking in tongues, you aren't really a Christian" to "basically Southern Baptist without the name" to "Jesus was a queer socialist".

[RINO Tom]

Only tangentially related, but this got me thinking of the early state churches in the US:

Anglican/Episcopalian
Congregationalist



Georgia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Rhode Island did not have a state church.  I also grouped Vermont and Maine into their old colonies and included West Virginia with Virginia just to fill out the map.  So for what little it's worth, the South was certainly far more Anglican than the rest of the country circa the Revolutionary War.  I know the Baptists and Methodists exploded in popularity in the 1800s and took a lot of adherents from the more traditional Protestant groups, but I imagine that was taken disproportionately from the lower classes in every region.

Somewhat OT, but I think a fascinating hypothetical would be if the states had maintained state churches through the Nineteenth Century, what denominations would pop up on an expanded map?  Would any Southern states abandon Episcopalianism in favor of a state Baptist church even though Baptist are notoriously against state churches?  Would any of the states adopt Presbyterian state churches?  I have to believe that multiple Methodist state churches would pop up on the western frontier of the US.  I am not sure Lutheranism could have been separated from Germanic immigrants in time to obtain a state church in any state, honestly.  Obviously, Catholics would not have stood a chance anywhere.

[RINO Tom]

Not surprisingly, the most Episcopalian metro area is Washington DC.  It obviously has a lot of that elite WASP demographic (with roots in both the North and South).

What's the Episcopalian partisan lean for other regions?

West: 50% DEM, 35% GOP
South: 49% DEM, 40% GOP
Northeast: 49% DEM, 41% GOP
Midwest: Sample size too small

Really interesting that Episcopalians in the Northeast have pretty similar politics to those in the South.  It is also worth noting that Anglicans that are NOT part of the Episcopal Church proper are 58% GOP, 37% DEM.  And if you added the ACNA back to the Episcopal Church tomorrow, ACNA members would represent almost 10% of the total.  That might not sound like a lot, but given their decidedly more partisan lean than TEC members, it would probably shift the overall percentage a bit.

[Skill and Chance]

Only tangentially related, but this got me thinking of the early state churches in the US:

Anglican/Episcopalian
Congregationalist



Georgia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Rhode Island did not have a state church.  I also grouped Vermont and Maine into their old colonies and included West Virginia with Virginia just to fill out the map.  So for what little it's worth, the South was certainly far more Anglican than the rest of the country circa the Revolutionary War.  I know the Baptists and Methodists exploded in popularity in the 1800s and took a lot of adherents from the more traditional Protestant groups, but I imagine that was taken disproportionately from the lower classes in every region.

Somewhat OT, but I think a fascinating hypothetical would be if the states had maintained state churches through the Nineteenth Century, what denominations would pop up on an expanded map?  Would any Southern states abandon Episcopalianism in favor of a state Baptist church even though Baptist are notoriously against state churches?  Would any of the states adopt Presbyterian state churches?  I have to believe that multiple Methodist state churches would pop up on the western frontier of the US.  I am not sure Lutheranism could have been separated from Germanic immigrants in time to obtain a state church in any state, honestly.  Obviously, Catholics would not have stood a chance anywhere.

This depends on how long it persisted and how hard it would be to alter.  Do you envision them persisting in some states until 1947 when the Supreme Court incorporated the Establishment Clause?  It seems inevitable that as society liberalizes and becomes more world facing and more diverse in the late 19th and 20th centuries, recognition of state churches would decline through legislative action at the state level. 

By suppressing the equivalent of a "marketplace" in conversions, it's entirely possible it would make society more secular faster.  For example, it seems likely an officially Congregationalist New England would be equivalent to officially Lutheran Scandinavia today.

 If any inland South states did succeed in switching from Anglican to Baptist in the 19th Century, I could see them holding out as officially Baptist until 1947. 

In a scenario where state churches persist, the incentives for Methodists would be very different.  There would be much more to gain by gradually contesting control of the Anglican/Episcopal hierarchy.  They may stay in Anglicanism at least partially, or leave and then eventually return when the US and the UK were on better terms again.  In the long run, they could just end up being the informal wing of Anglicanism.  However, the disputes that led to Methodists leaving were super early in the context of US history, so IDK?

If we extend the timeline of state churches to 1947, it's hard not to imagine the Dakotas going officially Lutheran.  They were usually comfortable with state-controlled institutions of daily life at the time (see the still extant Bank of North Dakota).

I don't think it's crazy to imagine a clause in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo allowing, say, the New Mexico territory to remain officially Catholic?  However, a large state with a megacity voting to be officially Catholic seems like an event that would trigger a SCOTUS ruling incorporating the Establishment Clause earlier.

Utah would surely try to go officially Mormon, and the federal government would surely try to preempt this.  In a world where the Establishment Clause is interpreted this way, it seems clear that a federal law prohibiting Utah from officially adopting Mormonism as a condition of statehood would be unconstitutional.  However, a Supreme Court ruling in favor of Utah on this point would be extremely unpopular, so IDK they might find a technicality on which to rule the other way.  If Utah does succeed in becoming officially Mormon, it would clearly remain so until 1947.     

[Irenaeus of Smyrna]

Not surprisingly, the most Episcopalian metro area is Washington DC.  It obviously has a lot of that elite WASP demographic (with roots in both the North and South).

What's the Episcopalian partisan lean for other regions?

West: 50% DEM, 35% GOP
South: 49% DEM, 40% GOP
Northeast: 49% DEM, 41% GOP
Midwest: Sample size too small

Really interesting that Episcopalians in the Northeast have pretty similar politics to those in the South.  It is also worth noting that Anglicans that are NOT part of the Episcopal Church proper are 58% GOP, 37% DEM.  And if you added the ACNA back to the Episcopal Church tomorrow, ACNA members would represent almost 10% of the total.  That might not sound like a lot, but given their decidedly more partisan lean than TEC members, it would probably shift the overall percentage a bit.

Thanks for all the great data i have some friends in the ACNA and did not know it has become so big as 10% of the Episcopal Church over the few years i has existed. I guess they did have some help from the Reformed Episcopal Church.

[RINO Tom]

Not surprisingly, the most Episcopalian metro area is Washington DC.  It obviously has a lot of that elite WASP demographic (with roots in both the North and South).

What's the Episcopalian partisan lean for other regions?

West: 50% DEM, 35% GOP
South: 49% DEM, 40% GOP
Northeast: 49% DEM, 41% GOP
Midwest: Sample size too small

Really interesting that Episcopalians in the Northeast have pretty similar politics to those in the South.  It is also worth noting that Anglicans that are NOT part of the Episcopal Church proper are 58% GOP, 37% DEM.  And if you added the ACNA back to the Episcopal Church tomorrow, ACNA members would represent almost 10% of the total.  That might not sound like a lot, but given their decidedly more partisan lean than TEC members, it would probably shift the overall percentage a bit.

Thanks for all the great data i have some friends in the ACNA and did not know it has become so big as 10% of the Episcopal Church over the few years i has existed. I guess they did have some help from the Reformed Episcopal Church.

Totally anecdotal, but this is my take.  The Mainliners of the 1950s or so set a precedent to adapt the mainstream Protestant churches (which collectively act as the "default" religion in America historically) to whatever the cultural norms were.  In the 1950s, that likely only meant maybe taking a more liberal understanding of things like Genesis.  However, fast forward to the 2020s, and you have Mainline churches that put far more emphasis on SJW issues than anything theological.  A Mainline pastor in the Episcopal Church would have a FAR greater chance of being expelled if he refused to perform a same sex marriage on Biblical grounds than he would if he claimed that the Resurrection is metaphorical ... I support same-sex marriage, but that speaks to a theological sickness within these churches (and I am an ELCA Lutheran, so I am not hating on the Mainline!).

Conversely, the more "conservative" churches (often labeled as "Evangelical") paradoxically totally lack the tradition, liturgy, sacramentology, etc. of the Mainline Protestant churches.  Most of them have completely symbolic views of things like baptism and the Lord's Supper (completely divorcing themselves from all historic church views on the subject before the Anabaptists), and their services look more like Jesus-themed Ted Talks in an auditorium than they do a "stereotypical" church.

Combine these two aspects, and you have a serious "gap" for what a lot of young Christians want - a traditional denomination in both theology AND liturgy.  Many of these folks have (unfortunately, JMO) converted to Orthodox or Catholic churches, but there are also quite a few that want this more theologically conservative and yet classically Protestant/more liturgical experience that groups like the ACNA provide.  Given how much the Mainline (defined here as the quite-liberal Seven Sisters) is declining, I would expect that in a few decades you will see a coalescence of the confessional/classical Protestants (Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.) that still have more traditional services.  I'm not sure how that will play out (e.g., I doubt the ELCA and LCMS ever approach each other), but I do think the more conservative and traditional Protestants will eventually co-opt the Mainline.

[King of Kensington]

Looking at the religion census in 1952, even in Virginia the number of Baptists and Methodists were pretty close in number.

[Badger]

I kind of suspect that Southern Episcopalians are one of the groups most likely to be white Democrats in the South.

Remember that despite what Atlas likes to believe, religious affiliation is not static amongst generations. Plenty of conservatives brought up Episcopalian there have likely gone Southern Baptist/Pentecostal/etc. People who are still Episcopalian can't be that socially conservative.

I beg to differ.  A major reason why the "Main Line" continues to shrink is because their pews are still full of, if not conservative, then at least traditional Christians.  Their exodus will continue as long as mainline clergy and seminaries claim it is their right to instruct the faithful in more "progressive" spiritual and political views.

But to answer OP's question, where I grew up in Mississippi seemed defined mostly by a Baptist/Methodist split with the Methodists having slightly more social capital than everyone else. 

Gay bashing in the name of Jesus sure does fill up the pews!

[jojoju1998]

I kind of suspect that Southern Episcopalians are one of the groups most likely to be white Democrats in the South.

Remember that despite what Atlas likes to believe, religious affiliation is not static amongst generations. Plenty of conservatives brought up Episcopalian there have likely gone Southern Baptist/Pentecostal/etc. People who are still Episcopalian can't be that socially conservative.

I beg to differ.  A major reason why the "Main Line" continues to shrink is because their pews are still full of, if not conservative, then at least traditional Christians.  Their exodus will continue as long as mainline clergy and seminaries claim it is their right to instruct the faithful in more "progressive" spiritual and political views.

But to answer OP's question, where I grew up in Mississippi seemed defined mostly by a Baptist/Methodist split with the Methodists having slightly more social capital than everyone else. 

Gay bashing in the name of Jesus sure does fill up the pews!

Well, yes and no.

There are the two types of evangelicals/conservative christians in the US.

1. The Tim Kellers. Classical Protestant conservatives. These guys are also the break off churches of the more liturigical denominations like Episcopalianism, think of the Anglican Church of America. And also the Presbyterian Church in America, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. This group is actually growing, and getting far more diverse than people think. THey might be conservative on social issues, but they're not really that interested in cultural griviences. Why would they ? What would an Asian American christian see in Donald Trump ?


2. The Southern Baptist/Fundamentalist type. These guys are what people think of, when they hear the word evangelical. The fire and brimestone types. These guys are decliniing.

[jojoju1998]

Not surprisingly, the most Episcopalian metro area is Washington DC.  It obviously has a lot of that elite WASP demographic (with roots in both the North and South).

What's the Episcopalian partisan lean for other regions?

West: 50% DEM, 35% GOP
South: 49% DEM, 40% GOP
Northeast: 49% DEM, 41% GOP
Midwest: Sample size too small

Really interesting that Episcopalians in the Northeast have pretty similar politics to those in the South.  It is also worth noting that Anglicans that are NOT part of the Episcopal Church proper are 58% GOP, 37% DEM.  And if you added the ACNA back to the Episcopal Church tomorrow, ACNA members would represent almost 10% of the total.  That might not sound like a lot, but given their decidedly more partisan lean than TEC members, it would probably shift the overall percentage a bit.

Thanks for all the great data i have some friends in the ACNA and did not know it has become so big as 10% of the Episcopal Church over the few years i has existed. I guess they did have some help from the Reformed Episcopal Church.

Totally anecdotal, but this is my take.  The Mainliners of the 1950s or so set a precedent to adapt the mainstream Protestant churches (which collectively act as the "default" religion in America historically) to whatever the cultural norms were.  In the 1950s, that likely only meant maybe taking a more liberal understanding of things like Genesis.  However, fast forward to the 2020s, and you have Mainline churches that put far more emphasis on SJW issues than anything theological.  A Mainline pastor in the Episcopal Church would have a FAR greater chance of being expelled if he refused to perform a same sex marriage on Biblical grounds than he would if he claimed that the Resurrection is metaphorical ... I support same-sex marriage, but that speaks to a theological sickness within these churches (and I am an ELCA Lutheran, so I am not hating on the Mainline!).

Conversely, the more "conservative" churches (often labeled as "Evangelical") paradoxically totally lack the tradition, liturgy, sacramentology, etc. of the Mainline Protestant churches.  Most of them have completely symbolic views of things like baptism and the Lord's Supper (completely divorcing themselves from all historic church views on the subject before the Anabaptists), and their services look more like Jesus-themed Ted Talks in an auditorium than they do a "stereotypical" church.

Combine these two aspects, and you have a serious "gap" for what a lot of young Christians want - a traditional denomination in both theology AND liturgy.  Many of these folks have (unfortunately, JMO) converted to Orthodox or Catholic churches, but there are also quite a few that want this more theologically conservative and yet classically Protestant/more liturgical experience that groups like the ACNA provide.  Given how much the Mainline (defined here as the quite-liberal Seven Sisters) is declining, I would expect that in a few decades you will see a coalescence of the confessional/classical Protestants (Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.) that still have more traditional services.  I'm not sure how that will play out (e.g., I doubt the ELCA and LCMS ever approach each other), but I do think the more conservative and traditional Protestants will eventually co-opt the Mainline.

The conservative episcopalians have already broken off, and formed the Anglican Church of North America ( of which by the way, John Kasich is a member ! Interesting factoid of the day.).

[jojoju1998]

I kind of suspect that Southern Episcopalians are one of the groups most likely to be white Democrats in the South.

Remember that despite what Atlas likes to believe, religious affiliation is not static amongst generations. Plenty of conservatives brought up Episcopalian there have likely gone Southern Baptist/Pentecostal/etc. People who are still Episcopalian can't be that socially conservative.

Conservative episcopalians have already broken off, in. a way, and formed the Anglican Church in North America.

[Del Tachi]

I kind of suspect that Southern Episcopalians are one of the groups most likely to be white Democrats in the South.

Remember that despite what Atlas likes to believe, religious affiliation is not static amongst generations. Plenty of conservatives brought up Episcopalian there have likely gone Southern Baptist/Pentecostal/etc. People who are still Episcopalian can't be that socially conservative.

I beg to differ.  A major reason why the "Main Line" continues to shrink is because their pews are still full of, if not conservative, then at least traditional Christians.  Their exodus will continue as long as mainline clergy and seminaries claim it is their right to instruct the faithful in more "progressive" spiritual and political views.

But to answer OP's question, where I grew up in Mississippi seemed defined mostly by a Baptist/Methodist split with the Methodists having slightly more social capital than everyone else.  

Gay bashing in the name of Jesus sure does fill up the pews!

"Traditional Christianity" as synonymous with gay bashing is a pretty illiterate take.  Keep up the good work, Badger!