I asked a professor if Israel is a democracy. His answer is surprising.

[pppolitics]

He said "Yes".

To justify his answer, he points to classical Athens.

In classical Athens, adult citizens (free males) not only vote but take part in the government.

Women and slaves weren't considered citizens and hence could not vote.

In theory, Israel could restrict voting rights to Jewish men and it would still be considered a democracy.

Do you agree with his interpretation?

[Yelnoc]

This might be the most clickbait-style title I have ever seen on the Atlas forum.

[Devils30]

It's a different situation than the American South from 1776-1960s. Unlike slaves who were never offered their own separate country/self-determination, it is widely assumed that Palestinians would have this in a Palestinian state even if it has not yet come to fruition. It is really more of an unresolved war than what we had with slavery, segregation/Jim Crow in the south here.

[pppolitics]

It's a different situation than the American South from 1776-1960s. Unlike slaves who were never offered their own separate country/self-determination, it is widely assumed that Palestinians would have this in a Palestinian state even if it has not yet come to fruition. It is really more of an unresolved war than what we had with slavery, segregation/Jim Crow in the south here.

Palestinians are more analogous to Native Americans.

Palestinian territory is analogous to Indian reservations.

[Alben Barkley]

Utterly irrelevant because women and people of all ethnicities and social status CAN vote in Israel. So it’s clearly a democracy by any standard.

[Devils30]

It's a different situation than the American South from 1776-1960s. Unlike slaves who were never offered their own separate country/self-determination, it is widely assumed that Palestinians would have this in a Palestinian state even if it has not yet come to fruition. It is really more of an unresolved war than what we had with slavery, segregation/Jim Crow in the south here.

Palestinians are more analogous to Native Americans.

Palestinian territory is analogous to Indian reservations.

Ummm, the Jews were there in 500 BC, are they not indigenous as well?

Judaism, Islam and Christianity all have deep roots in the region, this is fact.

[KaiserDave]

Within the Israeli academic sphere, there are generally three schools of thought

1. That Israel is a "democracy with flaws", a liberal democracy with significant issues (outsized role of the military/intelligence sphere, the occupation of the West Bank, social discrimination against Arabs)
2. That Israel is an "ethnic democracy", a liberal democracy that is primarily designed to service a specific ethnic group and exclude outsiders from power (but that does not deny them legal rights)
3. That Israel is an "ethnocracy", that Israel is NOT a liberal democracy and that its democratic institutions are a shallow facade for domination and control

This of course, an oversimplification. I err towards 2.

[pppolitics]

It's a different situation than the American South from 1776-1960s. Unlike slaves who were never offered their own separate country/self-determination, it is widely assumed that Palestinians would have this in a Palestinian state even if it has not yet come to fruition. It is really more of an unresolved war than what we had with slavery, segregation/Jim Crow in the south here.

Palestinians are more analogous to Native Americans.

Palestinian territory is analogous to Indian reservations.

Ummm, the Jews were there in 500 BC, are they not indigenous as well?

Judaism, Islam and Christianity all have deep roots in the region, this is fact.

There were Jews in the Palestinians, but Jews were anywhere close to the majority.

Jews who immigrated to Israel after Nakba were given Citizenship, but Palestinians who were forced displaced can't even return to Israel.

[pppolitics]

Utterly irrelevant because women and people of all ethnicities and social status CAN vote in Israel. So it’s clearly a democracy by any standard.

It's a democracy according to the Athenian definition, but that's a pretty low bar.

The United States was a "democracy" even though women, African Americans, and Native Americans couldn't vote.

[Devils30]

It's a different situation than the American South from 1776-1960s. Unlike slaves who were never offered their own separate country/self-determination, it is widely assumed that Palestinians would have this in a Palestinian state even if it has not yet come to fruition. It is really more of an unresolved war than what we had with slavery, segregation/Jim Crow in the south here.

Palestinians are more analogous to Native Americans.

Palestinian territory is analogous to Indian reservations.

Ummm, the Jews were there in 500 BC, are they not indigenous as well?

Judaism, Islam and Christianity all have deep roots in the region, this is fact.

There were Jews in the Palestinians, but Jews were anywhere close to the majority.

Jews who immigrated to Israel after Nakba were given Citizenship, but Palestinians who were forced displaced can't even return to Israel.

There weren't any Muslims in 500 BC but why bother even thinking.

[Ferguson97]

This might be the most clickbait-style title I have ever seen on the Atlas forum.

I know lmao, at first I genuinely thought that the OP just posted a New York Times op-ed and just made the thread title the title of the article.

[Senator Incitatus]

This might be the most clickbait-style title I have ever seen on the Atlas forum.

Man polls 1,304 likely voters. You won’t believe what happens next.

[Vosem]

If Palestine should be independent eventually, then it is a democracy, because it is under no obligations to let Palestinians vote.

If Palestine should never be independent, then it isn't a democracy, because the Palestinians should be given the same rights as ordinary Israelis.

So it depends on whether you think there should eventually be a Palestinian state. If you do think so, then Israel is a democracy. If you don't, then it isn't.

[Ferguson97]

If Palestine should be independent eventually, then it is a democracy, because it is under no obligations to let Palestinians vote.

If Palestine should never be independent, then it isn't a democracy, because the Palestinians should be given the same rights as ordinary Israelis.

So it depends on whether you think there should eventually be a Palestinian state. If you do think so, then Israel is a democracy. If you don't, then it isn't.

I don't understand, are you suggesting that if Palestinas are allowed to vote, it would necessarily not be a democracy?

[Vosem]

If Palestine should be independent eventually, then it is a democracy, because it is under no obligations to let Palestinians vote.

If Palestine should never be independent, then it isn't a democracy, because the Palestinians should be given the same rights as ordinary Israelis.

So it depends on whether you think there should eventually be a Palestinian state. If you do think so, then Israel is a democracy. If you don't, then it isn't.

I don't understand, are you suggesting that if Palestinas are allowed to vote, it would necessarily not be a democracy?

No. What I'm saying is that if Palestine is a foreign country occupied by Israel, then the Palestinians' inability to vote in Israeli elections does not reflect negatively on Israel's democracy (much as the Iraqis' or West Germans' inability to vote in American elections did not reflect negatively on American democracy). If Palestine is not a foreign country, then of course it does reflect negatively.

(The subtext is that two common criticisms of the Israeli state -- that the occupation is unjust and that Israel is an 'apartheid state' -- are actually mutually exclusive; both cannot possibly be true. My position, which I've reiterated many times, is that the occupation is just and that Israel is not an apartheid state.*)

*Except possibly with regard to the Jewish settlers in Gaza, whose deportations kind of do echo 1950s South Africa -- but, of course, people arguing that Israel is an apartheid state are virtually always arguing for orders of magnitude more settler deportations!

[pppolitics]

If Palestine should be independent eventually, then it is a democracy, because it is under no obligations to let Palestinians vote.

If Palestine should never be independent, then it isn't a democracy, because the Palestinians should be given the same rights as ordinary Israelis.

So it depends on whether you think there should eventually be a Palestinian state. If you do think so, then Israel is a democracy. If you don't, then it isn't.

I don't understand, are you suggesting that if Palestinas are allowed to vote, it would necessarily not be a democracy?

No. What I'm saying is that if Palestine is a foreign country occupied by Israel, then the Palestinians' inability to vote in Israeli elections does not reflect negatively on Israel's democracy (much as the Iraqis' or West Germans' inability to vote in American elections did not reflect negatively on American democracy). If Palestine is not a foreign country, then of course it does reflect negatively.

(The subtext is that two common criticisms of the Israeli state -- that the occupation is unjust and that Israel is an 'apartheid state' -- are actually mutually exclusive; both cannot possibly be true. My position, which I've reiterated many times, is that the occupation is just and that Israel is not an apartheid state.*)

*Except possibly with regard to the Jewish settlers in Gaza, whose deportations kind of do echo 1950s South Africa -- but, of course, people arguing that Israel is an apartheid state are virtually always arguing for orders of magnitude more settler deportations!

The two-state solution is dead.

Israel killed it.

It's time to figure out how the Palestinians fit into Israel's society.

[Vosem]

If Palestine should be independent eventually, then it is a democracy, because it is under no obligations to let Palestinians vote.

If Palestine should never be independent, then it isn't a democracy, because the Palestinians should be given the same rights as ordinary Israelis.

So it depends on whether you think there should eventually be a Palestinian state. If you do think so, then Israel is a democracy. If you don't, then it isn't.

I don't understand, are you suggesting that if Palestinas are allowed to vote, it would necessarily not be a democracy?

No. What I'm saying is that if Palestine is a foreign country occupied by Israel, then the Palestinians' inability to vote in Israeli elections does not reflect negatively on Israel's democracy (much as the Iraqis' or West Germans' inability to vote in American elections did not reflect negatively on American democracy). If Palestine is not a foreign country, then of course it does reflect negatively.

(The subtext is that two common criticisms of the Israeli state -- that the occupation is unjust and that Israel is an 'apartheid state' -- are actually mutually exclusive; both cannot possibly be true. My position, which I've reiterated many times, is that the occupation is just and that Israel is not an apartheid state.*)

*Except possibly with regard to the Jewish settlers in Gaza, whose deportations kind of do echo 1950s South Africa -- but, of course, people arguing that Israel is an apartheid state are virtually always arguing for orders of magnitude more settler deportations!

The two-state solution is dead.

Israel killed it.

It's time to figure out how the Palestinians fit into Israel's society.

I would be fine with this, but the actual Palestinian political organizations that exist right now do not seem to agree with you; their goal remains the establishment of a State of Palestine.

Maybe you should support Israel's current war to destroy Hamas? Then there would be one less such organization.

[Progressive Pessimist]

Its system has its faulrs, as many democracies do, but it is indeed a democracy.

[buritobr]

Maybe this is a way many people in the English speaking world understand as democracy: more about periodic elections, separation of powers, independent judiciary, rule of law, constitution than about universal suffrage. In the UK and in the US, there were these characteristics of a liberal regime many years before the universal suffrage, which was established gradually. Many people consider these countries democracies even before the universal suffrage.

On the other hand, in many countries in Continental Europe, Latin America, Asia, Africa, there was direct movement from an authocracy to a liberal democracy with universal suffrage.

[Devils30]

If Palestine should be independent eventually, then it is a democracy, because it is under no obligations to let Palestinians vote.

If Palestine should never be independent, then it isn't a democracy, because the Palestinians should be given the same rights as ordinary Israelis.

So it depends on whether you think there should eventually be a Palestinian state. If you do think so, then Israel is a democracy. If you don't, then it isn't.

I don't understand, are you suggesting that if Palestinas are allowed to vote, it would necessarily not be a democracy?

No. What I'm saying is that if Palestine is a foreign country occupied by Israel, then the Palestinians' inability to vote in Israeli elections does not reflect negatively on Israel's democracy (much as the Iraqis' or West Germans' inability to vote in American elections did not reflect negatively on American democracy). If Palestine is not a foreign country, then of course it does reflect negatively.

(The subtext is that two common criticisms of the Israeli state -- that the occupation is unjust and that Israel is an 'apartheid state' -- are actually mutually exclusive; both cannot possibly be true. My position, which I've reiterated many times, is that the occupation is just and that Israel is not an apartheid state.*)

*Except possibly with regard to the Jewish settlers in Gaza, whose deportations kind of do echo 1950s South Africa -- but, of course, people arguing that Israel is an apartheid state are virtually always arguing for orders of magnitude more settler deportations!

The two-state solution is dead.

Israel killed it.

It's time to figure out how the Palestinians fit into Israel's society.

Nah, the Palestinians should have their own country. Netanyahu's remarks today were wrong. There needs to be a pathway for Palestine if they recognize Israel in something resembling its 1967 lines and they renounce violence. We aren't there yet unfortunately but I don't mind if Biden breaks with Bibi on this point.

[Pres Mike]

If Palestine should be independent eventually, then it is a democracy, because it is under no obligations to let Palestinians vote.

If Palestine should never be independent, then it isn't a democracy, because the Palestinians should be given the same rights as ordinary Israelis.

So it depends on whether you think there should eventually be a Palestinian state. If you do think so, then Israel is a democracy. If you don't, then it isn't.

I don't understand, are you suggesting that if Palestinas are allowed to vote, it would necessarily not be a democracy?

No. What I'm saying is that if Palestine is a foreign country occupied by Israel, then the Palestinians' inability to vote in Israeli elections does not reflect negatively on Israel's democracy (much as the Iraqis' or West Germans' inability to vote in American elections did not reflect negatively on American democracy). If Palestine is not a foreign country, then of course it does reflect negatively.

(The subtext is that two common criticisms of the Israeli state -- that the occupation is unjust and that Israel is an 'apartheid state' -- are actually mutually exclusive; both cannot possibly be true. My position, which I've reiterated many times, is that the occupation is just and that Israel is not an apartheid state.*)

*Except possibly with regard to the Jewish settlers in Gaza, whose deportations kind of do echo 1950s South Africa -- but, of course, people arguing that Israel is an apartheid state are virtually always arguing for orders of magnitude more settler deportations!

The two-state solution is dead.

Israel killed it.

It's time to figure out how the Palestinians fit into Israel's society.

Nah, the Palestinians should have their own country. Netanyahu's remarks today were wrong. There needs to be a pathway for Palestine if they recognize Israel in something resembling its 1967 lines and they renounce violence. We aren't there yet unfortunately but I don't mind if Biden breaks with Bibi on this point.

Palestinians want nothing more than a state with 1967 borders. Thats what they demanded in peace conferences in 2001 and 2008.

The problem is, Israel won't give up East Jerusalem or the various settlements in the West Bank. Israel is not willing to give 1967 borders

[Devils30]

If Palestine should be independent eventually, then it is a democracy, because it is under no obligations to let Palestinians vote.

If Palestine should never be independent, then it isn't a democracy, because the Palestinians should be given the same rights as ordinary Israelis.

So it depends on whether you think there should eventually be a Palestinian state. If you do think so, then Israel is a democracy. If you don't, then it isn't.

I don't understand, are you suggesting that if Palestinas are allowed to vote, it would necessarily not be a democracy?

No. What I'm saying is that if Palestine is a foreign country occupied by Israel, then the Palestinians' inability to vote in Israeli elections does not reflect negatively on Israel's democracy (much as the Iraqis' or West Germans' inability to vote in American elections did not reflect negatively on American democracy). If Palestine is not a foreign country, then of course it does reflect negatively.

(The subtext is that two common criticisms of the Israeli state -- that the occupation is unjust and that Israel is an 'apartheid state' -- are actually mutually exclusive; both cannot possibly be true. My position, which I've reiterated many times, is that the occupation is just and that Israel is not an apartheid state.*)

*Except possibly with regard to the Jewish settlers in Gaza, whose deportations kind of do echo 1950s South Africa -- but, of course, people arguing that Israel is an apartheid state are virtually always arguing for orders of magnitude more settler deportations!

The two-state solution is dead.

Israel killed it.

It's time to figure out how the Palestinians fit into Israel's society.

Nah, the Palestinians should have their own country. Netanyahu's remarks today were wrong. There needs to be a pathway for Palestine if they recognize Israel in something resembling its 1967 lines and they renounce violence. We aren't there yet unfortunately but I don't mind if Biden breaks with Bibi on this point.

Palestinians want nothing more than a state with 1967 borders. Thats what they demanded in peace conferences in 2001 and 2008.

The problem is, Israel won't give up East Jerusalem or the various settlements in the West Bank. Israel is not willing to give 1967 borders

East Jerusalem is one of the more complicated parts of this. Ideally, Israel dismantles the settlements deep inside the West Bank and annexes the ones near the green line in exchange for Israeli land of comparable area (part of the 2008 offer).

But things like this (https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791) really make me doubt that a majority of Palestinians are as pragmatic as you. I am well aware this poll might have methodological issues that make Trafalgar and Emerson polls look sound but still it's alarming. We missed a lot of opportunities around 2000 that would have improved things.

[Pres Mike]

If Palestine should be independent eventually, then it is a democracy, because it is under no obligations to let Palestinians vote.

If Palestine should never be independent, then it isn't a democracy, because the Palestinians should be given the same rights as ordinary Israelis.

So it depends on whether you think there should eventually be a Palestinian state. If you do think so, then Israel is a democracy. If you don't, then it isn't.

I don't understand, are you suggesting that if Palestinas are allowed to vote, it would necessarily not be a democracy?

No. What I'm saying is that if Palestine is a foreign country occupied by Israel, then the Palestinians' inability to vote in Israeli elections does not reflect negatively on Israel's democracy (much as the Iraqis' or West Germans' inability to vote in American elections did not reflect negatively on American democracy). If Palestine is not a foreign country, then of course it does reflect negatively.

(The subtext is that two common criticisms of the Israeli state -- that the occupation is unjust and that Israel is an 'apartheid state' -- are actually mutually exclusive; both cannot possibly be true. My position, which I've reiterated many times, is that the occupation is just and that Israel is not an apartheid state.*)

*Except possibly with regard to the Jewish settlers in Gaza, whose deportations kind of do echo 1950s South Africa -- but, of course, people arguing that Israel is an apartheid state are virtually always arguing for orders of magnitude more settler deportations!

The two-state solution is dead.

Israel killed it.

It's time to figure out how the Palestinians fit into Israel's society.

Nah, the Palestinians should have their own country. Netanyahu's remarks today were wrong. There needs to be a pathway for Palestine if they recognize Israel in something resembling its 1967 lines and they renounce violence. We aren't there yet unfortunately but I don't mind if Biden breaks with Bibi on this point.

Palestinians want nothing more than a state with 1967 borders. Thats what they demanded in peace conferences in 2001 and 2008.

The problem is, Israel won't give up East Jerusalem or the various settlements in the West Bank. Israel is not willing to give 1967 borders

East Jerusalem is one of the more complicated parts of this. Ideally, Israel dismantles the settlements deep inside the West Bank and annexes the ones near the green line in exchange for Israeli land of comparable area (part of the 2008 offer).

But things like this (https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791) really make me doubt that a majority of Palestinians are as pragmatic as you. I am well aware this poll might have methodological issues that make Trafalgar and Emerson polls look sound but still it's alarming. We missed a lot of opportunities around 2000 that would have improved things.

The 2000 offer wasn't that great. Yeah, as a Palestinian America I think they should have accepted. But they couldn't control their water or electrcity for example

[Devils30]

If Palestine should be independent eventually, then it is a democracy, because it is under no obligations to let Palestinians vote.

If Palestine should never be independent, then it isn't a democracy, because the Palestinians should be given the same rights as ordinary Israelis.

So it depends on whether you think there should eventually be a Palestinian state. If you do think so, then Israel is a democracy. If you don't, then it isn't.

I don't understand, are you suggesting that if Palestinas are allowed to vote, it would necessarily not be a democracy?

No. What I'm saying is that if Palestine is a foreign country occupied by Israel, then the Palestinians' inability to vote in Israeli elections does not reflect negatively on Israel's democracy (much as the Iraqis' or West Germans' inability to vote in American elections did not reflect negatively on American democracy). If Palestine is not a foreign country, then of course it does reflect negatively.

(The subtext is that two common criticisms of the Israeli state -- that the occupation is unjust and that Israel is an 'apartheid state' -- are actually mutually exclusive; both cannot possibly be true. My position, which I've reiterated many times, is that the occupation is just and that Israel is not an apartheid state.*)

*Except possibly with regard to the Jewish settlers in Gaza, whose deportations kind of do echo 1950s South Africa -- but, of course, people arguing that Israel is an apartheid state are virtually always arguing for orders of magnitude more settler deportations!

The two-state solution is dead.

Israel killed it.

It's time to figure out how the Palestinians fit into Israel's society.

Nah, the Palestinians should have their own country. Netanyahu's remarks today were wrong. There needs to be a pathway for Palestine if they recognize Israel in something resembling its 1967 lines and they renounce violence. We aren't there yet unfortunately but I don't mind if Biden breaks with Bibi on this point.

Palestinians want nothing more than a state with 1967 borders. Thats what they demanded in peace conferences in 2001 and 2008.

The problem is, Israel won't give up East Jerusalem or the various settlements in the West Bank. Israel is not willing to give 1967 borders

East Jerusalem is one of the more complicated parts of this. Ideally, Israel dismantles the settlements deep inside the West Bank and annexes the ones near the green line in exchange for Israeli land of comparable area (part of the 2008 offer).

But things like this (https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791) really make me doubt that a majority of Palestinians are as pragmatic as you. I am well aware this poll might have methodological issues that make Trafalgar and Emerson polls look sound but still it's alarming. We missed a lot of opportunities around 2000 that would have improved things.

The 2000 offer wasn't that great. Yeah, as a Palestinian America I think they should have accepted. But they couldn't control their water or electrcity for example

2000 offer was in a place that could have led to future counteroffers. Israel could have offered the water/electricity rights and to dismantle all settlements x miles in in exchange for Palestinians relenting on right to return.

[pppolitics]

If Palestine should be independent eventually, then it is a democracy, because it is under no obligations to let Palestinians vote.

If Palestine should never be independent, then it isn't a democracy, because the Palestinians should be given the same rights as ordinary Israelis.

So it depends on whether you think there should eventually be a Palestinian state. If you do think so, then Israel is a democracy. If you don't, then it isn't.

I don't understand, are you suggesting that if Palestinas are allowed to vote, it would necessarily not be a democracy?

No. What I'm saying is that if Palestine is a foreign country occupied by Israel, then the Palestinians' inability to vote in Israeli elections does not reflect negatively on Israel's democracy (much as the Iraqis' or West Germans' inability to vote in American elections did not reflect negatively on American democracy). If Palestine is not a foreign country, then of course it does reflect negatively.

(The subtext is that two common criticisms of the Israeli state -- that the occupation is unjust and that Israel is an 'apartheid state' -- are actually mutually exclusive; both cannot possibly be true. My position, which I've reiterated many times, is that the occupation is just and that Israel is not an apartheid state.*)

*Except possibly with regard to the Jewish settlers in Gaza, whose deportations kind of do echo 1950s South Africa -- but, of course, people arguing that Israel is an apartheid state are virtually always arguing for orders of magnitude more settler deportations!

The two-state solution is dead.

Israel killed it.

It's time to figure out how the Palestinians fit into Israel's society.

Nah, the Palestinians should have their own country. Netanyahu's remarks today were wrong. There needs to be a pathway for Palestine if they recognize Israel in something resembling its 1967 lines and they renounce violence. We aren't there yet unfortunately but I don't mind if Biden breaks with Bibi on this point.

The two-state is as dead as my grandmother and I don't think that she is going to be resurrected any time soon.

Israel gets de jure ownership of former Palestinian territories and the Palestinians there.