Speaker Johnson still blocking Ukraine aid over border bill, despite Senate GOP pressure

[Ferguson97]

Paying workers sub par wages and often blackmailing them with deportation if they protest is evil, not sure why you have quotation marks.

I'm not sure why you think you have the moral high ground here, since you want to deport them.

Deporting them immediately is far more ethical than employing them for sh*t wages while they live as second class citizens.

Obviously the ideal solution is for them to be given citizenship so they can work for the same wages as anyone else, but I completely disagree. Deporting them is the worst thing we could do.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Paying workers sub par wages and often blackmailing them with deportation if they protest is evil, not sure why you have quotation marks.

I'm not sure why you think you have the moral high ground here, since you want to deport them.

Deporting them immediately is far more ethical than employing them for sh*t wages while they live as second class citizens.

Obviously the ideal solution is for them to be given citizenship so they can work for the same wages as anyone else, but I completely disagree. Deporting them is the worst thing we could do.

People don’t have a right to move to another country

[Ferguson97]

People don’t have a right to move to another country

Yes they do.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Paying workers sub par wages and often blackmailing them with deportation if they protest is evil, not sure why you have quotation marks.

I'm not sure why you think you have the moral high ground here, since you want to deport them.

Deporting them immediately is far more ethical than employing them for sh*t wages while they live as second class citizens.

Obviously the ideal solution is for them to be given citizenship so they can work for the same wages as anyone else, but I completely disagree. Deporting them is the worst thing we could do.

People don’t have a right to move to another country

Says someone who wouldn’t be here without immigration

[OSR stands with Israel]

Paying workers sub par wages and often blackmailing them with deportation if they protest is evil, not sure why you have quotation marks.

I'm not sure why you think you have the moral high ground here, since you want to deport them.

Deporting them immediately is far more ethical than employing them for sh*t wages while they live as second class citizens.

Obviously the ideal solution is for them to be given citizenship so they can work for the same wages as anyone else, but I completely disagree. Deporting them is the worst thing we could do.

People don’t have a right to move to another country

Says someone who wouldn’t be here without immigration

I wasn’t an illegal immigrant and legal immigration numbers weren’t at Canadian levels like many liberals like Ferguson seem to want .

I am perfectly fine with legal immigration numbers being around where they are today (I’d just switch the criteria to a point based system) so these talking points are getting ridiculous.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Having seen the horribly convoluted immigration system up close and knowing what goes into doing it the right way, this oddly popular talking point that legal immigrants are obliged to carry water for illegal immigration is something special.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

     Having seen the horribly convoluted immigration system up close and knowing what goes into doing it the right way, this oddly popular talking point that legal immigrants are obliged to carry water for illegal immigration is something special.

I would think knowing how much of a clusterf**k the process required to immigrate the "right" way would make one more sympathetic to people desperate enough to escape dire straits to risk illegal immigration.

[Pericles]

Mixing immigration up with the major US foreign policy is stupid. This is yet another embarassment that shows the rest of the world that the US is not a reliable partner. The House should just take what they're offered and do their jobs. These are immature brats who are at best fit to sit on opposition benches for years, not have real power and responsibility.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Having seen the horribly convoluted immigration system up close and knowing what goes into doing it the right way, this oddly popular talking point that legal immigrants are obliged to carry water for illegal immigration is something special.

I would think knowing how much of a clusterf**k the process required to immigrate the "right" way would make one more sympathetic to people desperate enough to escape dire straits to risk illegal immigration.

     The problem with that is that this difficulty creates a perverse incentive where many choose to not bother with legal channels because it's too hard and a cousin said they just had to show up at the southern border and Biden would roll out the red carpet. Genuinely desperate people crossing the border illegally do exist, but the more we do to welcome them the more others will cynically take advantage.

[MasterJedi]

     Having seen the horribly convoluted immigration system up close and knowing what goes into doing it the right way, this oddly popular talking point that legal immigrants are obliged to carry water for illegal immigration is something special.

I would think knowing how much of a clusterf**k the process required to immigrate the "right" way would make one more sympathetic to people desperate enough to escape dire straits to risk illegal immigration.

     The problem with that is that this difficulty creates a perverse incentive where many choose to not bother with legal channels because it's too hard and a cousin said they just had to show up at the southern border and Biden would roll out the red carpet. Genuinely desperate people crossing the border illegally do exist, but the more we do to welcome them the more others will cynically take advantage.

So exactly like how lax regulation and pocket change fines cause most businesses to epically screw us but I’m sure you’re ok with that vs actual people.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Having seen the horribly convoluted immigration system up close and knowing what goes into doing it the right way, this oddly popular talking point that legal immigrants are obliged to carry water for illegal immigration is something special.

I would think knowing how much of a clusterf**k the process required to immigrate the "right" way would make one more sympathetic to people desperate enough to escape dire straits to risk illegal immigration.

     The problem with that is that this difficulty creates a perverse incentive where many choose to not bother with legal channels because it's too hard and a cousin said they just had to show up at the southern border and Biden would roll out the red carpet. Genuinely desperate people crossing the border illegally do exist, but the more we do to welcome them the more others will cynically take advantage.

So exactly like how lax regulation and pocket change fines cause most businesses to epically screw us but I’m sure you’re ok with that vs actual people.

     My political evolution in recent years has led me to be far less opposed to business regulations as a matter of principle. As much as I like Colombia and want to move there, there are problems there that would be solved by some more regulation.

[Sir Mohamed]

Mixing immigration up with the major US foreign policy is stupid. This is yet another embarassment that shows the rest of the world that the US is not a reliable partner. The House should just take what they're offered and do their jobs. These are immature brats who are at best fit to sit on opposition benches for years, not have real power and responsibility.

The GOP just uses this an excuse not pass any aid, which they don't want for other reasons. A majority of Americans and especially swing voters feel like the border situation is a crisis and Biden isn't doing enough to solve it. Consequently the GOP thinks they can make cheap political points here. In reality, they don't have much a desire to actually address immigration issues and find meaningful compromises.

[Hindsight was 2020]

None of what’s going on here is actually about immigration, this is about screwing over Ukraine to satisfy the Putin simp crowd and using immigration as an optics cover. If this was actually about immigration then Johnson wouldn’t be saying wait until after the election when even people like Mitch are pointing out they won’t get a better deal on immigration post election

[Yoda]

The obvious truth is - despite his lies to the contrary - that Johnson is a hardcore trump Republican, who not-so-secretly wants Russia to win and does not want Ukraine, under any circumstances whatsoever (including getting a border bill filled with conservatives' wildest immigration dreams) to get the military aid it needs to defend itself from Russia.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

     Having seen the horribly convoluted immigration system up close and knowing what goes into doing it the right way, this oddly popular talking point that legal immigrants are obliged to carry water for illegal immigration is something special.

I would think knowing how much of a clusterf**k the process required to immigrate the "right" way would make one more sympathetic to people desperate enough to escape dire straits to risk illegal immigration.

     The problem with that is that this difficulty creates a perverse incentive where many choose to not bother with legal channels because it's too hard and a cousin said they just had to show up at the southern border and Biden would roll out the red carpet. Genuinely desperate people crossing the border illegally do exist, but the more we do to welcome them the more others will cynically take advantage.

If we assume your characterization of this issue is correct, what problems do people coming in the illegal way cause that wouldn't be solved by giving them the legal right to work in the US?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Having seen the horribly convoluted immigration system up close and knowing what goes into doing it the right way, this oddly popular talking point that legal immigrants are obliged to carry water for illegal immigration is something special.

I would think knowing how much of a clusterf**k the process required to immigrate the "right" way would make one more sympathetic to people desperate enough to escape dire straits to risk illegal immigration.

     The problem with that is that this difficulty creates a perverse incentive where many choose to not bother with legal channels because it's too hard and a cousin said they just had to show up at the southern border and Biden would roll out the red carpet. Genuinely desperate people crossing the border illegally do exist, but the more we do to welcome them the more others will cynically take advantage.

If we assume your characterization of this issue is correct, what problems do people coming in the illegal way cause that wouldn't be solved by giving them the legal right to work in the US?

     I find it amusing that I posited that the situation is unfair to legal immigrants and your response was to make it more unfair. Anyone who tries to do things legally at that point is pretty much just a dupe. Sure you can be denied entry coming illegally, but as of July 2023 only 14% of migrants were turned back at the Mexican border.

[Storr]

Politico: "Dems float a trade: Ukraine-border deal for protecting Johnson"

“[T]hat some Democrats are even talking about the idea shows how desperate they are to find a solution. The party knows that time is running out to help Ukraine. And they’re getting pummeled on the border issue politically and need to do something to alleviate the situation.”

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1748345745218957784?s=20

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

Politico: "Dems float a trade: Ukraine-border deal for protecting Johnson"

“[T]hat some Democrats are even talking about the idea shows how desperate they are to find a solution. The party knows that time is running out to help Ukraine. And they’re getting pummeled on the border issue politically and need to do something to alleviate the situation.”

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1748345745218957784?s=20

protect him one time, sure. Inevitably he gets booted anyway considering the unruly caucus. Kick that can down closer to the election.

[Vosem]

Part of the issue here is that Mike Johnson (R-relatively rural northwestern Louisiana) is not in the same position as John Boehner (R-suburban Dayton) or Paul Ryan (R-suburban Milwaukee) or Kevin McCarthy (R-machine politics of rural California); if he actually makes a highly visible and controversial deal with the Democrats it would be perfectly plausible for his own voters to kick him out.

(OTOH, Louisiana specifically seems like it has more of a culture than other places of tolerating even very right-wing Republicans, like Tea Party stalwart Jeff Landry, reaching deals with legislative Democrats on specific issues, so maybe not. And by becoming Speaker of the House Mike Johnson has become the most powerful politician from Louisiana since...uh...Zachary Taylor? Huey Long and Hale Boggs had lots of potential but both of them are substantially famous for their untimely deaths.)

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

     Having seen the horribly convoluted immigration system up close and knowing what goes into doing it the right way, this oddly popular talking point that legal immigrants are obliged to carry water for illegal immigration is something special.

I would think knowing how much of a clusterf**k the process required to immigrate the "right" way would make one more sympathetic to people desperate enough to escape dire straits to risk illegal immigration.

     The problem with that is that this difficulty creates a perverse incentive where many choose to not bother with legal channels because it's too hard and a cousin said they just had to show up at the southern border and Biden would roll out the red carpet. Genuinely desperate people crossing the border illegally do exist, but the more we do to welcome them the more others will cynically take advantage.

If we assume your characterization of this issue is correct, what problems do people coming in the illegal way cause that wouldn't be solved by giving them the legal right to work in the US?

     I find it amusing that I posited that the situation is unfair to legal immigrants and your response was to make it more unfair. Anyone who tries to do things legally at that point is pretty much just a dupe. Sure you can be denied entry coming illegally, but as of July 2023 only 14% of migrants were turned back at the Mexican border.

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I think I can understand why someone who dealt with the obstacles the US puts in place to immigrate legally would not take kindly to people circumventing the legal process. I don't agree; I view immigration restrictions as always unjust outside of extreme circumstances, and do not have a problem with people breaking unjust/bad laws.

Legal immigration should become as easy as arriving at a border checkpoint and doing a background check. And those who went or are going through the current system are owed serious compensation.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Having seen the horribly convoluted immigration system up close and knowing what goes into doing it the right way, this oddly popular talking point that legal immigrants are obliged to carry water for illegal immigration is something special.

I would think knowing how much of a clusterf**k the process required to immigrate the "right" way would make one more sympathetic to people desperate enough to escape dire straits to risk illegal immigration.

     The problem with that is that this difficulty creates a perverse incentive where many choose to not bother with legal channels because it's too hard and a cousin said they just had to show up at the southern border and Biden would roll out the red carpet. Genuinely desperate people crossing the border illegally do exist, but the more we do to welcome them the more others will cynically take advantage.

If we assume your characterization of this issue is correct, what problems do people coming in the illegal way cause that wouldn't be solved by giving them the legal right to work in the US?

     I find it amusing that I posited that the situation is unfair to legal immigrants and your response was to make it more unfair. Anyone who tries to do things legally at that point is pretty much just a dupe. Sure you can be denied entry coming illegally, but as of July 2023 only 14% of migrants were turned back at the Mexican border.

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I think I can understand why someone who dealt with the obstacles the US puts in place to immigrate legally would not take kindly to people circumventing the legal process. I don't agree; I view immigration restrictions as always unjust outside of extreme circumstances, and do not have a problem with people breaking unjust/bad laws.

Legal immigration should become as easy as arriving at a border checkpoint and doing a background check. And those who went or are going through the current system are owed serious compensation.

     Likewise, I understand but don't agree with your position that immigration restrictions are unjust per se, but I respect your proposal that deals elegantly with both legal and illegal immigration. Too often the left only considers illegal immigration when discussing the topic, creating a situation that is unbalanced in favor of illegal entry and thereby discouraging people from even attempting to go through legal channels. I don't think there's a realistic way of getting things under control until we reconcile this gap in policy.

     I appreciate you taking a moment to explain yourself; not nearly enough people (myself included) do that.

[Hindsight was 2020]

https://twitter.com/burgessev/status/1749551889358651689
It’s actually amazing how House Republicans likely are going to kill the best immigration deal they’ll ever get (even better than anything in a post-Trump win world) just to keep it as an election issue and pander to the Putin simp caucus

[Storr]

I know this hasn't been brought up since the focus of this debate has been on border security, illegal immigration and enforcement, not legal immigration, but I wonder if getting rid of the diversity immigrant lottery would be enticing enough for House Republicans to agree to a deal.

[Landslide Lyndon]

https://twitter.com/burgessev/status/1749551889358651689
It’s actually amazing how House Republicans likely are going to kill the best immigration deal they’ll ever get (even better than anything in a post-Trump win world) just to keep it as an election issue and pander to the Putin simp caucus

GOP House Caucus' Motto: Some people just want to watch the world burn.

[Sir Mohamed]

https://twitter.com/burgessev/status/1749551889358651689
It’s actually amazing how House Republicans likely are going to kill the best immigration deal they’ll ever get (even better than anything in a post-Trump win world) just to keep it as an election issue and pander to the Putin simp caucus

I just hope Biden's team is going to cut a bunch of great ads on that.