Conservatives angry at Airline CEO focusing on DEI policies implying “too many” White men in industr

[VBM]

100% of cub caretakers among the bear population are female. Clearly this huge gender disparity is because bears are sexist and discourage males from raising their kids, rather than male bears simply being programmed to have to interest in raising cubs

Since the human mind is much more complex than just about any other animal species on Earth, there’s practically no professions where one gender has no interest in it at all, but we are still animals nonetheless. So it’s not surprising that the male and female brain would be at least slightly different, given that there are very noticeable differences in the male and female brain in just about every other mammal species

[VBM]

What are these supposed psychological differences?

Preferences and interests.

And you think those are naturally ingrained due to biology/brain chemistry, and not due to socialization?

Why not both?

You sound like a phrenologist

This and other posts you have made in this thread are shameful and embarrassing. You're studying to be a scientist for god's sake.

I'm hesitant to degrade myself by wading into this idiotic debate at all but even if it was entirely due to socialization that doesn't refute that the differences is still real and observable. Once again, progressives really have an incredibly difficult grasp of the is/ought distinction (and don't worry - I'm aware that this one is surely social rather than biological).

You’re being a bit harsh on her imo. The one who’s been really shameful here is Badger

[Badger]

What are these supposed psychological differences?

Preferences and interests.

And you think those are naturally ingrained due to biology/brain chemistry, and not due to socialization?

Why not both?

You sound like a phrenologist

This and other posts you have made in this thread are shameful and embarrassing. You're studying to be a scientist for god's sake.

I'm hesitant to degrade myself by wading into this idiotic debate at all but even if it was entirely due to socialization that doesn't refute that the differences is still real and observable. Once again, progressives really have an incredibly difficult grasp of the is/ought distinction (and don't worry - I'm aware that this one is surely social rather than biological).

You’re being a bit harsh on her imo. The one who’s been really shameful here is Badger

Cool. Meanwhile the arguments here have been that basically a combination of natural biology and the Invisible Hand of the market is responsible for a minute share of pilot and other good paying positions being female, even after Frank provided an extensive list of links to class action lawsuits over discrimination in those fields. Ah yes, the lawyers. We Wiley hypnotizing lawyers convince the plaintiffs to take up these causes and truly it was a blow against business efficiency.

Honestly, the causes of this disparity have been argued with little more clarity in this thread than "because reasons". Women value work / lifebalance more than men? Sure, I'll take that at face value. Now explain to me why the percentage of women in the military is substantially higher than the percentage of Pilots? Is it perhaps because one Institution goes out of its way to be welcoming to anyone who can truly hack it in their system and thereby be a true meritocracy?

[Sumner 1868]

This thread is still going...

[VBM]

What are these supposed psychological differences?

Preferences and interests.

And you think those are naturally ingrained due to biology/brain chemistry, and not due to socialization?

Why not both?

You sound like a phrenologist

This and other posts you have made in this thread are shameful and embarrassing. You're studying to be a scientist for god's sake.

I'm hesitant to degrade myself by wading into this idiotic debate at all but even if it was entirely due to socialization that doesn't refute that the differences is still real and observable. Once again, progressives really have an incredibly difficult grasp of the is/ought distinction (and don't worry - I'm aware that this one is surely social rather than biological).

You’re being a bit harsh on her imo. The one who’s been really shameful here is Badger

Cool. Meanwhile the arguments here have been that basically a combination of natural biology and the Invisible Hand of the market is responsible for a minute share of pilot and other good paying positions being female, even after Frank provided an extensive list of links to class action lawsuits over discrimination in those fields. Ah yes, the lawyers. We Wiley hypnotizing lawyers convince the plaintiffs to take up these causes and truly it was a blow against business efficiency.

Honestly, the causes of this disparity have been argued with little more clarity in this thread than "because reasons". Women value work / lifebalance more than men? Sure, I'll take that at face value. Now explain to me why the percentage of women in the military is substantially higher than the percentage of Pilots? Is it perhaps because one Institution goes out of its way to be welcoming to anyone who can truly hack it in their system and thereby be a true meritocracy?

A quick Google search shows that pretty much every military branch is 80+% percent male. The military branch with the highest percentage of females is the Air Force, with 23% of its members being female. That’s basically the exact same as the percentage of pilots that are female

[lfromnj]

A quick Google search shows that pretty much every military branch is 80+% percent male. The military branch with the highest percentage of females is the Air Force, with 23% of its members being female. That’s basically the exact same as the percentage of pilots that are female

Its about 7 or 8 % for pilots in the Air Force itself . The RAF in the UK actually tried to ban white males because they wanted more women and minorities.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

PinkAnon never dies...

[dead0man]

Cool. Meanwhile the arguments here have been that basically a combination of natural biology and the Invisible Hand of the market is responsible for a minute share of pilot and other good paying positions being female, even after Frank provided an extensive list of links to class action lawsuits over discrimination in those fields. Ah yes, the lawyers. We Wiley hypnotizing lawyers convince the plaintiffs to take up these causes and truly it was a blow against business efficiency.

does the existence of a handful of lawsuits proves something is common place?  Someone couldn't find the same number of lawsuits over something that rarely happens?

[Fuzzy Bear]

This is racist, misogynistic logic. The assumption that diversity means hiring anyone off the street is extremely bigoted and intended to stir up violence against women and people of color.

DEI is anti-white racism, pure and simple.

There are many jobs where you could hire less than the "best qualified candidate" and be OK.  The "best qualified candidate" may not be long for the job, whereas a lesser (but qualified) candidate may stay a long time.  Being an airline pilot isn't one of them.  Being a doctor isn't one of them, either.  Race does not, and should not, have any bearing on who is selected to be an airline pilot.  Lives are at stake on every flight.  People should resent DEI in that it suggests that persons should be selected for a job on the basis of considerations other than qualifications and ability.  In general, that idea ought to be abhorrent.

[Fuzzy Bear]

If any industry needs some diversifying its pilots. 80-90% or pilots are men.

Not sure why the percentage of pilots that are men is at all relevant so long as the companies are hiring the most qualified applicants

From a purely statistical standpoint that doesn’t hold water. No way 80% of pilots are men just because “they make the best pilots” or whatever.

There's probably much less women than men seeking to become pilots

That’s! Why! DEI! Exists!

To try and include and support all kinds of people to seek and stay in the job so the organization can succeed to the best of its ability.

Why must there be an equal number of female and male pilots?

[Badger]

If any industry needs some diversifying its pilots. 80-90% or pilots are men.

Not sure why the percentage of pilots that are men is at all relevant so long as the companies are hiring the most qualified applicants

From a purely statistical standpoint that doesn’t hold water. No way 80% of pilots are men just because “they make the best pilots” or whatever.

There's probably much less women than men seeking to become pilots

That’s! Why! DEI! Exists!

To try and include and support all kinds of people to seek and stay in the job so the organization can succeed to the best of its ability.

Why must there be an equal number of female and male pilots?

Who said equal? Just a 90-10 split is problematic. Ofc.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1749974638086517183

[dead0man]

Who said equal? Just a 90-10 split is problematic. Ofc.

what ratio would you be happy with?  What ratio would a feminist organization be happy with?  Should the ratio be the same for lumberjacks and pipe fitters?  Garbage men and the people who change the light bulbs on top of super tall things?  or are you like an earlier redavatar and only think "high profile jobs" should be regendered?  (and since you seemed to have missed it..) Does the existence of a handful of lawsuits proves something is common place?

[lfromnj]

https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-a-quick-overview

If anyone wants a overview of some of the complaints not against Pilots but the FAA and ATC's

A scandal at the FAA has been moving on a slow-burn through the courts for a decade, culminating in the class-action lawsuit currently known as Brigida v. Buttigieg, brought by a class who spent years and thousands of dollars in coursework to become air traffic controllers, only to be dismissed by a pass-fail biographical questionnaire with a >90% fail rate, implemented without warning after many of them had already taken, and passed, a skill assessment. The questionnaire awarded points for factors like "lowest grade in high school is science," something explicitly admitted by the FAA in a motion to deny class certification.

[Skill and Chance]

https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-a-quick-overview

If anyone wants a overview of some of the complaints not against Pilots but the FAA.

A scandal at the FAA has been moving on a slow-burn through the courts for a decade, culminating in the class-action lawsuit currently known as Brigida v. Buttigieg, brought by a class who spent years and thousands of dollars in coursework to become air traffic controllers, only to be dismissed by a pass-fail biographical questionnaire with a >90% fail rate, implemented without warning after many of them had already taken, and passed, a skill assessment. The questionnaire awarded points for factors like "lowest grade in high school is science," something explicitly admitted by the FAA in a motion to deny class certification.

Yikes!  Also, note the issue is about air traffic controllers, not pilots.  The former is a significantly less prestigious/culturally significant job. 

[Reactionary Libertarian]

https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-a-quick-overview

If anyone wants a overview of some of the complaints not against Pilots but the FAA and ATC's

A scandal at the FAA has been moving on a slow-burn through the courts for a decade, culminating in the class-action lawsuit currently known as Brigida v. Buttigieg, brought by a class who spent years and thousands of dollars in coursework to become air traffic controllers, only to be dismissed by a pass-fail biographical questionnaire with a >90% fail rate, implemented without warning after many of them had already taken, and passed, a skill assessment. The questionnaire awarded points for factors like "lowest grade in high school is science," something explicitly admitted by the FAA in a motion to deny class certification.

Steve Sailer was ringing the alarm on FAA diversity initiatives long ago. More concerning than what’s going with pilots, IMHO.

[HisGrace]

So am I interpreting this correctly? They gave you bonus points for getting low science grades in school under the assumption that it would result in them hiring more black people? These woke white people in DEI are the most condescending racists.

[AGA]

I hope the next Republican DoJ starts prosecuting DEI as a violation of the Civil Rights Act.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

I hope the next Republican DoJ starts prosecuting DEI as a violation of the Civil Rights Act.

how… DEI doesn’t have any actual authority’s in most companies just makes recommendations that are usually ignored

[AGA]

I hope the next Republican DoJ starts prosecuting DEI as a violation of the Civil Rights Act.

how… DEI doesn’t have any actual authority’s in most companies just makes recommendations that are usually ignored

It influences hiring decisions. Also, an argument could be made that diversity training creates a hostile work environment.

[Horus]

I hope the next Republican DoJ starts prosecuting DEI as a violation of the Civil Rights Act.

how… DEI doesn’t have any actual authority’s in most companies just makes recommendations that are usually ignored

It influences hiring decisions. Also, an argument could be made that diversity training creates a hostile work environment.

Affinity group exercises, part of DEI training, absolutely create a hostile work environment as they promote segregation. Some of the other stuff seems kinda silly to get too mad over though. I'm no more skeptical of flying than I was a year ago, and anyone who is is a paranoid fool.

[VBM]

I hope the next Republican DoJ starts prosecuting DEI as a violation of the Civil Rights Act.

how… DEI doesn’t have any actual authority’s in most companies just makes recommendations that are usually ignored

It influences hiring decisions. Also, an argument could be made that diversity training creates a hostile work environment.

I remember that when I went through a DEI training course for my grad school orientation, the instructor designated separate areas of the room for certain parts of one’s identity (for example, one section of the room represented race, another sex, another sexual orientation, another gender identity, etc), and made us stand in the area which corresponds to the identity classification we were most uncomfortable with, and then explain why we were uncomfortable with it. I wasn’t actually uncomfortable with any of the options, but I chose gender identity since that’s the most “justifiable” phobia (I have no problems with any adult choosing to transition from their birth gender to another one). It was pretty awkward though since there was a trans student there, so I did worry that he might get the wrong idea and think that I actually am denying his gender identity.

I wonder if Fergie’s, Badger’s, leecannon’s, and Scarlet’s opinions on DEI training would sour if they had to do that in their DEI training session. You literally had to pick one area which you were more “bigoted” in, but I can’t imagine any of those posters actually going along with it. I feel like they’d just freeze up and beg the instructor to not force them to choose

[lfromnj]

So am I interpreting this correctly? They gave you bonus points for getting low science grades in school under the assumption that it would result in them hiring more black people? These woke white people in DEI are the most condescending racists.

https://twitter.com/tracewoodgrains/status/1752197413605941701

CTI schools were blindsided and outraged by this change. A report on FAA hiring issues found that 70% of CTI administrators agreed that the changes in the process had led to a negative effect on the air traffic control infrastructure. One respondent stated their "numbers [had] been devastated," and the majority agreed that it would severely impact the health of their own programs. The largest program dropped from more than 600 students to less than 300. Concurrent to all of this, NBCFAE members were hard at work. In particular, one Shelton Snow, an FAA employee and then-president of the NBCFAE's Washington Suburban chapter, provided NBCFAE members with "buzz words" in January 2014 that would automatically push their resumes to the tops of HR files. A 2013 NBCFAE meeting advised members to "please include [on resumes] if you are a NBCFAE Member. [...] Can you see the strategy", emphasizing they were "only concerned" with the employment of "African-Americans, women ... and other minorities."

It honestly seems less of a test and more of a questionaire which means it wouldn't be taken in a controlled environment. In which case the answers just seem to be a jumble of noise which very few people would get without the correct answer. They actually punished people for saying they worked more in college. Based on that NBCFAE email I wouldn't be surprised if the answers were given out.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

I hope the next Republican DoJ starts prosecuting DEI as a violation of the Civil Rights Act.

how… DEI doesn’t have any actual authority’s in most companies just makes recommendations that are usually ignored

It influences hiring decisions. Also, an argument could be made that diversity training creates a hostile work environment.

I remember that when I went through a DEI training course for my grad school orientation, the instructor designated separate areas of the room for certain parts of one’s identity (for example, one section of the room represented race, another sex, another sexual orientation, another gender identity, etc), and made us stand in the area which corresponds to the identity classification we were most uncomfortable with, and then explain why we were uncomfortable with it. I wasn’t actually uncomfortable with any of the options, but I chose gender identity since that’s the most “justifiable” phobia (I have no problems with any adult choosing to transition from their birth gender to another one). It was pretty awkward though since there was a trans student there, so I did worry that he might get the wrong idea and think that I actually am denying his gender identity.

I wonder if Fergie’s, Badger’s, leecannon’s, and Scarlet’s opinions on DEI training would sour if they had to do that in their DEI training session. You literally had to pick one area which you were more “bigoted” in, but I can’t imagine any of those posters actually going along with it. I feel like they’d just freeze up and beg the instructor to not force them to choose

I never said I liked DEI, just that it’d toothless and concerns about it are overblown. I’ve had DEI training and I understand where it comes from, but like in your experience, it often misses the mark and creates unintended consequences, usually because it’s so toothless and amorphous.

But I fail to see how that’s close to a legal issue and not just a company issue. The difference between me and a lot of posters here is where I just think the execution is often poor, they are against diversity  period.

[Skill and Chance]

So am I interpreting this correctly? They gave you bonus points for getting low science grades in school under the assumption that it would result in them hiring more black people? These woke white people in DEI are the most condescending racists.

https://twitter.com/tracewoodgrains/status/1752197413605941701

CTI schools were blindsided and outraged by this change. A report on FAA hiring issues found that 70% of CTI administrators agreed that the changes in the process had led to a negative effect on the air traffic control infrastructure. One respondent stated their "numbers [had] been devastated," and the majority agreed that it would severely impact the health of their own programs. The largest program dropped from more than 600 students to less than 300. Concurrent to all of this, NBCFAE members were hard at work. In particular, one Shelton Snow, an FAA employee and then-president of the NBCFAE's Washington Suburban chapter, provided NBCFAE members with "buzz words" in January 2014 that would automatically push their resumes to the tops of HR files. A 2013 NBCFAE meeting advised members to "please include [on resumes] if you are a NBCFAE Member. [...] Can you see the strategy", emphasizing they were "only concerned" with the employment of "African-Americans, women ... and other minorities."

It honestly seems less of a test and more of a questionaire which means it wouldn't be taken in a controlled environment. In which case the answers just seem to be a jumble of noise which very few people would get without the correct answer. They actually punished people for saying they worked more in college. Based on that NBCFAE email I wouldn't be surprised if the answers were given out.

The allegations are that they literally wrote a secret code into the survey and coordinated to share the "correct" answers with their preferred candidates.  "Winning" the survey was a prerequisite to advance further into the hiring/training process, meaning they could absolutely gatekeep access to the real assessment tests.  If proven true, this was an old boys club hiring through a secret society, just by a different name.