El-Sisi vs. Erdogan

[TDAS04]

The President of Egypt is the lesser evil by far.

[Battista Minola 1616]

For all that Erdoğan may be an aspiring dictator, el-Sisi's rule is much more undemocratic, illiberal, repressive, authoritarian and not particularly more economically competent either.

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

Erdogan

[DavidB.]

Without Sisi, Egypt would be a full-blown Islamist dictatorship instead of a country that is run in an authoritarian way but is still semi-free as long as you stay out of politics.

Without Erdogan, Turkey could have been actually developing instead of committing economic suicide and letting AKP cronies conduct gross mismanagement, leading to the building permits disaster we've seen regarding the earthquake. Turkey is also backsliding in terms of personal freedom.

What's more, Sisi isn't killing Kurds and is acting like a responsible adult in the current Israel-Gaza crisis, unlike Erdogan, who gets irresponsibly unhinged.

The answer is quite easy, honestly. Yes, Turkey is more democratic than Egypt, but that's despite Erdogan, not because of him. I'd still rather live in Turkey than in Egypt but that's not the question here.

[KaiserDave]

If you are seriously arguing that what Morsi would realistically have established would have been more oppressive then what Sisi has actually implemented, that is fanciful. The European far-right has an unhealthy fixation with the worst Middle Eastern dictators so long as they profess secularism. The baton that is beating the demonstrator is secular, not religious!

[Reactionary Libertarian]

Without Sisi, Egypt would be a full-blown Islamist dictatorship instead of a country that is run in an authoritarian way but is still semi-free as long as you stay out of politics.

Without Erdogan, Turkey could have been actually developing instead of committing economic suicide and letting AKP cronies conduct gross mismanagement, leading to the building permits disaster we've seen regarding the earthquake. Turkey is also backsliding in terms of personal freedom.

What's more, Sisi isn't killing Kurds and is acting like a responsible adult in the current Israel-Gaza crisis, unlike Erdogan, who gets irresponsibly unhinged.

The answer is quite easy, honestly. Yes, Turkey is more democratic than Egypt, but that's despite Erdogan, not because of him. I'd still rather live in Turkey than in Egypt but that's not the question here.

This. Sisi is decent relative to the alternatives. Erdogan is very bad relative to the alternatives.

[Blow by blow, the passion dies]

Sisi is actually competent and less authoritarian

[Antonio the Sixth]

Sisi is if anything more authoritarian than Erdogan (I mean come on, just compare the results of the last Turkish election to the last Egyptian one), but I guess he's less of a destabilizing force on an international level and has fewer minorities to oppress. Narrow Sisinvote I guess.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Sisi killed about 1000 unarmed civilian protesters in one day, he makes erdogan seem benign by comparison.

[lfromnj]

Sisi is if anything more authoritarian than Erdogan (I mean come on, just compare the results of the last Turkish election to the last Egyptian one), but I guess he's less of a destabilizing force on an international level and has fewer minorities to oppress. Narrow Sisinvote I guess.

The Copts I know actually like Sisi for overthrowing Morsi. Islamist democracy should be oppressed until the countries are ready not to oppress others.

[PSOL]

lmao, if we are talking about minority politics I guess Sisi doing wide scale deportations of Sinaiians from their homes among those he killed recently don't count. Or the crackdowns on LGBT people he does to keep conservative sections of the populace happy.

The nonsense of "alternatives" to cover up for abuses of the current Egyptian government really rings hollow, especially so since the Muslim Brotherhood and the rest of the theocrats in Egypt have been pretty much sidelined and eviscerated since then. The last few protests against Sisi have been from Egyptian liberals.

[Reactionary Libertarian]

Sisi is actually competent and less authoritarian

I wouldn’t really call Sisi competent, from an economic perspective. And he’s certainly more authoritarian. But he still better than Erdogan, who represents pro-radical Islam forces, which Sisi strongly opposes.

[Republican Party Stalwart]

Erdogan

No surprise there.

[PSOL]

Sisi is actually competent and less authoritarian

I wouldn’t really call Sisi competent, from an economic perspective. And he’s certainly more authoritarian. But he still better than Erdogan, who represents pro-radical Islam forces, which Sisi strongly opposes.

The f••• are you on about, Sisi has been Egypt’s Reagan in engaging in mass austerity policies and ensuring the only real economy is the war economy through his security policies and ventures into Libya till he chickened out.

[Republican Party Stalwart]

I have some reservations about the democratic and populist (ergo quasi/pseudo-leftish) tendencies of the Muslim Brotherhood (and of their "Islamic modernist" ideological origins), and therefore I had some hesitation in casting my vote for Erdogan in this poll. That said, I find him better than Sisi in almost every way. Erdogan is probably the closest thing we have in the republics of the world today to a democratically elected classical-conservative leader, and he has genuinely done a commendable (if imperfect) job of making Turkey more conservative and exposing the hypocrisy and despotism of the imposed Kemalist order of the Republic of Turkey; Sisi on the other hand is just a continuation of the same contemptible, nepotistic Nasserist military regime that has ruled Egypt for the last 70 years.

[Republican Party Stalwart]

If you are seriously arguing that what Morsi would realistically have established would have been more oppressive then what Sisi has actually implemented, that is fanciful. The European far-right has an unhealthy fixation with the worst Middle Eastern dictators so long as they profess secularism. The baton that is beating the demonstrator is secular, not religious!

The question of "what Morsi would realistically have established" is sort of a moot point, since there's not "realistic" scenario in which he wouldn't eventually have been "coup-d'état"-ed by the military at some point.

[Republican Party Stalwart]

What's more, Sisi isn't killing Kurds ... .

Sisi ... has fewer minorities to oppress. Narrow Sisinvote I guess.

Imagine thinking that Erdogan in particular, or the Islamic right in Turkey in general, is any more "anti-Kurdish" or "anti-minority" than any of the other viable political factions or leaders who have ever ruled Turkey since the Tanzimat Reforms or who ever will realistically rule Turkey in the near-future.

[Republican Party Stalwart]

Sisi is actually competent and less authoritarian

"Average Arafat Fan" yep display name checks out.

[PSOL]

I have some reservations about the democratic and populist (ergo quasi/pseudo-leftish) tendencies of the Muslim Brotherhood (and of their "Islamic modernist" ideological origins), and therefore I had some hesitation in casting my vote for Erdogan in this poll. That said, I find him better than Sisi in almost every way. Erdogan is probably the closest thing we have in the republics of the world today to a democratically elected classical-conservative leader, and he has genuinely done a commendable (if imperfect) job of making Turkey more conservative and exposing the hypocrisy and despotism of the imposed Kemalist order of the Republic of Turkey; Sisi on the other hand is just an extension of the same contemptible Nasserist military nepotistic regime that has ruled Egypt for the last 70 years.

Calling the Muslim Brotherhood populists or quasi-leftists really is something now.

The Kemalist order has been gone since Ecevit and Sisi is no Nasser.

[Antonio the Sixth]

What's more, Sisi isn't killing Kurds ... .

Sisi ... has fewer minorities to oppress. Narrow Sisinvote I guess.

Imagine thinking that Erdogan in particular, or the Islamic right in Turkey in general, is any more "anti-Kurdish" or "anti-minority" than any of the other viable political factions or leaders who have ever ruled Turkey since the Tanzimat Reforms or who ever will realistically rule Turkey in the near-future.

So what? He doesn't get a pass on oppressing Kurds just because it's been Turkey's favorite pastime for a century.

Also the fact that he was a lot better for Kurds in his first decade in power and then made the conscious choices to return to the old ways when it became politically convenient if anything makes him more despicable than his predecessors who just did it out of habit.

[Blow by blow, the passion dies]

Sisi is actually competent and less authoritarian

"Average Arafat Fan" yep display name checks out.

1. My opinion on Yasser Arafat and/or the PLO is irrelevant to this conversation.
2. After looking at his Wikipedia page, I concede Sisi is more authoritarian than Erdogan, but I haven't found anything suggesting he's incompetent.

[DavidB.]

Imagine thinking that Erdogan in particular, or the Islamic right in Turkey in general, is any more "anti-Kurdish" or "anti-minority" than any of the other viable political factions or leaders who have ever ruled Turkey since the Tanzimat Reforms or who ever will realistically rule Turkey in the near-future.

Given the fact that any non-AKP coalition will inevitably include HDP, yes, that coalition would indeed be less anti-Kurdish.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

My gut is telling me Erdogan.

[Republican Party Stalwart]

Imagine thinking that Erdogan in particular, or the Islamic right in Turkey in general, is any more "anti-Kurdish" or "anti-minority" than any of the other viable political factions or leaders who have ever ruled Turkey since the Tanzimat Reforms or who ever will realistically rule Turkey in the near-future.

Given the fact that any non-AKP coalition will inevitably include HDP, yes, that coalition would indeed be less anti-Kurdish.

Erdogan's current coalition includes Islamic conservative Kurdish parties.

[Republican Party Stalwart]

What's more, Sisi isn't killing Kurds ... .

Sisi ... has fewer minorities to oppress. Narrow Sisinvote I guess.

Imagine thinking that Erdogan in particular, or the Islamic right in Turkey in general, is any more "anti-Kurdish" or "anti-minority" than any of the other viable political factions or leaders who have ever ruled Turkey since the Tanzimat Reforms or who ever will realistically rule Turkey in the near-future.

So what? He doesn't get a pass on oppressing Kurds just because it's been Turkey's favorite pastime for a century.

Also the fact that he was a lot better for Kurds in his first decade in power and then made the conscious choices to return to the old ways when it became politically convenient if anything makes him more despicable than his predecessors who just did it out of habit.

To the extent that it's true Erdogan "made the conscious choices to return to the old ways," he did so because he had to, not because he wanted to. Erdogan's Islamic conservative political forces represent an absolute minority of the country's population and parliament, and Erdogan's administration in order to stay in power cannot afford to offend the ethnic-nationalist/secular-rightist sector of the voting public. Erdogan got away with being "a lot better for Kurds in his first decade in power" because the economy was doing very well and because the international diplomatic pressures created by the aftermath of the 2016 coup attempt did not yet exist, but ever since then Erdogan has been more desperate to maintain greater than 50% toleration by the voting public and elected parliament, and the easiest way to do so is by "returning to the old ways" in regards to policies concerning the Kurds (since "oppression of Kurds" is a broadly popular position among the sound majority of ethnic-Turk Turkish citizens and ergo Turkish swing voters, and is among the primary list of demands among the secular/nationalist-right faction which Erdogan constantly has to appease in order to keep power).