Biden admin announces 2.8 billion for passenger rail including high speed

[Horus]

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/12/08/fact-sheet-president-biden-announces-billions-to-deliver-world-class-high-speed-rail-and-launch-new-passenger-rail-corridors-across-the-country/

Biden has been excellent on infrastructure.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Good stuff.

Richmond to Raleigh seems like a strange choice to me but I guess (1) it seems like it's partially for freight, which I don't know the current capacity of and may currently be a critical gap and (2) I imagine this is supposed to link up with pre-existing infrastructure between Richmond and DC so this provides access for the Research Triangle to DC. Seems like it could be prescient to build this up considering the Atlanta-Charlotte corridor is growing and probably at some point will reach out up to Raleigh, in which case HSR may eventually link it up with the NE corridor.

The LA to Vegas project has been discussed online before. Seems like an interesting test case at least. I'm not sure why the western branch ends in Rancho Cucamonga though. Is it just too expensive to build into the rest of the city, or is there already some form transit that connects downtown LA to this terminus?

[American2020]

To bad it doesn't include Hawaii. Anyway...

[pikachu]

Good stuff.

Richmond to Raleigh seems like a strange choice to me but I guess (1) it seems like it's partially for freight, which I don't know the current capacity of and may currently be a critical gap and (2) I imagine this is supposed to link up with pre-existing infrastructure between Richmond and DC so this provides access for the Research Triangle to DC. Seems like it could be prescient to build this up considering the Atlanta-Charlotte corridor is growing and probably at some point will reach out up to Raleigh, in which case HSR may eventually link it up with the NE corridor.

There’s been a lot of investment into the Virginia lines by the state government over the past few years and they’ve been one of the brightest spots in American passenger rail recently so I feel confident that this is a case where the governments know what they’re doing. Iirc, North Carolina’s also gotten pretty serious about rail over the past years too. I think you’re right that in the long run this is a way to link the Northeast Corridor down to Atlanta.

The LA to Vegas project has been discussed online before. Seems like an interesting test case at least. I'm not sure why the western branch ends in Rancho Cucamonga though. Is it just too expensive to build into the rest of the city, or is there already some form transit that connects downtown LA to this terminus?

Yeah, the line is mostly being built on a single track in the desert to save costs and is eventually supposed to hook up with California’s HSR whenever that’s finished. Really interesting project since it and its Florida equivalent are privately funded, so it’s a big test for whether private rail service can be profitable in America. This one’s particularly interesting since it doesn’t have the benefit of being a real estate development scheme like Brightline Florida.

[emailking]

The BIF is incredible!

[Arizona Iced Tea]

Due to bureaucracy and red tape, it's very unlikely we see any fruit from these efforts until the 2030s if it all. I don't think Americans will really use this as car culture is too embedded in our nation. However, there needs to be a focus on urban public transportation like light rail and subways and renovating the systems we already have. Caltrain looks like it was built in the 70s.

[ملكة كرينجيتوك]

To bad it doesn't include Hawaii. Anyway...

Can't wait to be able to take high-speed rail to Seattle and Vancouver BC. Will probably still be able to enjoy that even if I'm no longer based in the Portland area

[ProgressiveModerate]

It's good to see Biden investing in a lot of these regional scale rail projects.

However, I think an equally as big problem that hasn't gotten enough attention is the public transit systems in basically all US cities are either in a bad state of repair (NYC), severely underdeveloped, (Atlanta, LA, San Fransisco), or basically non-existent (Houston). These systems tend to get far more daily riders than regional rail, yet seem to get disproportionately less attention.

[Horus]

It's good to see Biden investing in a lot of these regional scale rail projects.

However, I think an equally as big problem that hasn't gotten enough attention is the public transit systems in basically all US cities are either in a bad state of repair (NYC), severely underdeveloped, (Atlanta, LA, San Fransisco), or basically non-existent (Houston). These systems tend to get far more daily riders than regional rail, yet seem to get disproportionately less attention.

The Gwinnett county MARTA referendum a few years back was an absolute travesty. Jimmy Carter Boulevard, where the new station almost certainly would've been, is one of the most congested roads outside the perimeter. Not to mention the lack of bus service to so many burbs. MARTA will eventually expand to both there and Cobb, but it is depressingly slow.

At least the West Coast systems are consistently expanding.

[ProgressiveModerate]

It's good to see Biden investing in a lot of these regional scale rail projects.

However, I think an equally as big problem that hasn't gotten enough attention is the public transit systems in basically all US cities are either in a bad state of repair (NYC), severely underdeveloped, (Atlanta, LA, San Fransisco), or basically non-existent (Houston). These systems tend to get far more daily riders than regional rail, yet seem to get disproportionately less attention.

The Gwinnett county MARTA referendum a few years back was an absolute travesty. Jimmy Carter Boulevard, where the new station almost certainly would've been, is one of the most congested roads outside the perimeter. Not to mention the lack of bus service to so many burbs. MARTA will eventually expand to both there and Cobb, but it is depressingly slow.

Ye that's the general issue. I feel like we have projects, but they're just happening at such a slow rate - certainly not fast enough to keep up with demand long term in many of these fast growing communities.

It seems like what often happens is politics will put one transit project on a pedestal (here in NYC that's Second Avenue Subway) at the expense of everything else. The project ends up being way overbuilt and overbudget and effectively prevents other major transit projects from happening.

I think the best way forward with our current system of politics is to lump a bunch of transit projects into one big package, similar to what Paris is doing with the Grand Paris Express. That way politicians would still have an easy time selling it as a political win while still getting multiple important projects done at once.

[gerritcole]

i'll believe when i see it lmao, i remember sf to la high speed rail being funded by schwarnegger in ing 06 and here we are w/nothing to show for it. all these pretty maps don't mean squat till the lines are built. we should just subcontract this whole thing to the japanese and ask them to build it. we can pay for it w/'military aid' which society has told me isn't real money

[Storr]

Good stuff.

Richmond to Raleigh seems like a strange choice to me but I guess (1) it seems like it's partially for freight, which I don't know the current capacity of and may currently be a critical gap and (2) I imagine this is supposed to link up with pre-existing infrastructure between Richmond and DC so this provides access for the Research Triangle to DC. Seems like it could be prescient to build this up considering the Atlanta-Charlotte corridor is growing and probably at some point will reach out up to Raleigh, in which case HSR may eventually link it up with the NE corridor.

[snip]

Yep, the main reason for Raleigh to Richmond is because it's more direct than the existing Amtrak route and has only one freight train a day using it (which runs only on the segment currently in use) compared to the existing route which is CSX's Florida to the Northeast mainline (except for Selma to Raleigh).

Both states have bought their respective segments of the new line in 2020, meaning passenger trains will have priority over the route similar to Amtrak's high(er) speed line in Michigan. The article I got the map below from claims the new route "could cut an hour" in travel time.



map source: https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/raleigh-richmond-passenger-project-to-receive-1-billion-grant/

[Antonio the Sixth]

Will that actually, finally get us a high-speed rail connection between San Francisco and LA? That would probably require Newsom getting off his ass.

[Roll Roons]

Will that actually, finally get us a high-speed rail connection between San Francisco and LA? That would probably require Newsom getting off his ass.

It looks like that's one of their priorities, but the trains would have to go through the Central Valley.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Biden would know a thing or two about the usefulness of rail transport.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

Why not actually build true HSR in the Northeast Corridor?

[Yoda]

The Midwest is such a prime example of where expansion of passenger rail would be amazing. High speed passenger rail linking Pitt->Cleveland->Toledo-> Chicago->Milwaukee and a line going from Cincinnati north through Columbus, Toledo to Detroit, and then from Detroit to Lansing and Grand Rapids would just unleash so much economic activity, not to mention alleviate traffic on the highways.

[Aurelius2]

Will that actually, finally get us a high-speed rail connection between San Francisco and LA? That would probably require Newsom getting off his ass.

It looks like that's one of their priorities, but the trains would have to go through the Central Valley.

California's geography also makes it inherently slower and more expensive than other places. That California's government is highly skilled at lighting massive piles of money on fire does make it much worse.

Basically, to get from LA to SF you have to cross at least two major mountain ranges. On top of that, earthquake risk makes things much more difficult than they would otherwise be.

[Mercenary]

Infrastructure is an area I do support increased spending such as this. Would like high speed rail between Vancouver BC, Seattle and Portland. Would love it even more if it also went across the mountains to Spokane but that is unlikely. Trainand public transport was so convenient when living abroad, would really like nore of it here. We need denser cities that are more walkable to be coupled with this to eliminate some of the car dependency.

[Roll Roons]

Will that actually, finally get us a high-speed rail connection between San Francisco and LA? That would probably require Newsom getting off his ass.

It looks like that's one of their priorities, but the trains would have to go through the Central Valley.

California's geography also makes it inherently slower and more expensive than other places. That California's government is highly skilled at lighting massive piles of money on fire does make it much worse.

Basically, to get from LA to SF you have to cross at least two major mountain ranges. On top of that, earthquake risk makes things much more difficult than they would otherwise be.

Yeah. How would the line even leave SF - is it more likely to cross the Bay into Alameda County or go south into San Mateo? Since the current goal is expand the existing Merced/Fresno/Bakersfield line, I feel like the former would require an additional stop in Modesto and the latter in San Jose.

[Pres Mike]

Part of the plan would connect Memphis and Nashville by train, which would be a massive game changer for the state. So far its only 500k for planning, but I really hope it leads to something real.

[Roll Roons]

I also feel like it could do very well in the Texas Triangle - have a line that basically follows I-35 from San Antonio through Austin and and splits at Waco with one branch going to Dallas and the other to Fort Worth, although the Dallas and Fort Worth stations would also be closely connected.

There could also be lines from Houston to Dallas, Austin and San Antonio, with the Houston-Dallas line stopping in College Station.

[Aurelius2]

Will that actually, finally get us a high-speed rail connection between San Francisco and LA? That would probably require Newsom getting off his ass.

It looks like that's one of their priorities, but the trains would have to go through the Central Valley.

California's geography also makes it inherently slower and more expensive than other places. That California's government is highly skilled at lighting massive piles of money on fire does make it much worse.

Basically, to get from LA to SF you have to cross at least two major mountain ranges. On top of that, earthquake risk makes things much more difficult than they would otherwise be.

Yeah. How would the line even leave SF - is it more likely to cross the Bay into Alameda County or go south into San Mateo?

South through San Mateo. Here's a map of the planned project and current status.

Since the current goal is expand the existing Merced/Fresno/Bakersfield line, I feel like the former would require an additional stop in Modesto and the latter in San Jose.

There is no "existing Merced/Fresno/Bakersfield line". The viaducts along that line are currently under construction. The first track and systems construction is supposed to begin next year. Passenger service along the valley segment, as of this year's Project Update, is projected to begin in 2030.

[pikachu]

I also feel like it could do very well in the Texas Triangle - have a line that basically follows I-35 from San Antonio through Austin and and splits at Waco with one branch going to Dallas and the other to Fort Worth, although the Dallas and Fort Worth stations would also be closely connected.

There could also be lines from Houston to Dallas, Austin and San Antonio, with the Houston-Dallas line stopping in College Station.

Amtrak's in collaboration with a private partner on this. Texas Central was originally doing it solo, but it was struggling (in a complete shock to anyone who followed American infrastructure projects) with land acquisition.

Why not actually build true HSR in the Northeast Corridor?

There are a couple projects - the Frederick Douglass Tunnel in Baltimore, Gateway in NY/NJ, and a bunch of rail improvements in Connecticut that should quicken up Acela times by a lot. (I think there are more plans too.) Ik the first two have gotten the necessary money and I think the Connecticut projects have gotten some funding. I'm not super clear on the technical side, but from what I understand, the geography of the current Northeast Corridor in Connecticut makes it a bit tougher which why you get pipe dream proposals like this.

It's good to see Biden investing in a lot of these regional scale rail projects.

However, I think an equally as big problem that hasn't gotten enough attention is the public transit systems in basically all US cities are either in a bad state of repair (NYC), severely underdeveloped, (Atlanta, LA, San Fransisco), or basically non-existent (Houston). These systems tend to get far more daily riders than regional rail, yet seem to get disproportionately less attention.

The Gwinnett county MARTA referendum a few years back was an absolute travesty. Jimmy Carter Boulevard, where the new station almost certainly would've been, is one of the most congested roads outside the perimeter. Not to mention the lack of bus service to so many burbs. MARTA will eventually expand to both there and Cobb, but it is depressingly slow.

Ye that's the general issue. I feel like we have projects, but they're just happening at such a slow rate - certainly not fast enough to keep up with demand long term in many of these fast growing communities.

It seems like what often happens is politics will put one transit project on a pedestal (here in NYC that's Second Avenue Subway) at the expense of everything else. The project ends up being way overbuilt and overbudget and effectively prevents other major transit projects from happening.

I think the best way forward with our current system of politics is to lump a bunch of transit projects into one big package, similar to what Paris is doing with the Grand Paris Express. That way politicians would still have an easy time selling it as a political win while still getting multiple important projects done at once.

This is kind of what's happening in Seattle, LA, and a bunch of other blue state cities that don't have legacy transit systems. Those cities do have funded master plans - it's just that since the money is coming through sales taxes, it's not available yet due to not existing. Barring that, the issue's money. Now's not the best time to be borrowing for megaprojects and you'd need to find the political will to shift a greater % of transportation funding from roads to transit.

[Sestak]

Good stuff.

Richmond to Raleigh seems like a strange choice to me but I guess (1) it seems like it's partially for freight, which I don't know the current capacity of and may currently be a critical gap and (2) I imagine this is supposed to link up with pre-existing infrastructure between Richmond and DC so this provides access for the Research Triangle to DC. Seems like it could be prescient to build this up considering the Atlanta-Charlotte corridor is growing and probably at some point will reach out up to Raleigh, in which case HSR may eventually link it up with the NE corridor.

Others have already noted some of this, but essentially the gist of this is:

-Demand: Virginia has been an extremely fast growing state for Amtrak ridership, with even Covid not slowing it down for very long. Amtrak service within NC also continues to grow, with service being increased recently within the state.
-The S-Line itself is the most direct route between these two cities, and it is currently a mostly abandoned rail line that the two states themselves own. Thus since there’s no freight traffic they can rebuild and upgrade the line much faster than with an in-use freight line, but they also don’t need to do nearly as much eminent domain since the track is already there.
- Because of the above, the plan calls for improving the line to allow 110 mph - not true high speed rail, but a definite improvement. Currently DC to Raleigh is a six hour journey; between the direct routing and the faster speeds, the intention here is to cut it down close to four.
- Since the states own the lines, it allows them to make this a passenger-focused corridor. This is important because it means they can choose to increase or reduce service as needed without having to negotiate with the freight carrier all the time. (Yes, CSX Transportation still owns the track between Richmond and DC but that’s  a much smaller obstacle). If this pans out it’ll essentially make the line through to NC a de facto extension of Northeast Corridor service. The real long term pipe-dream plan is to then pair this with an all-new actual high speed rail between Charlotte and Atlanta to create a full connection on the east coast.

The LA to Vegas project has been discussed online before. Seems like an interesting test case at least. I'm not sure why the western branch ends in Rancho Cucamonga though. Is it just too expensive to build into the rest of the city, or is there already some form transit that connects downtown LA to this terminus?

Both. Building into the city will be difficult and expensive (the LA-San Francisco HSR just plans to upgrade existing railroads in both metro areas, and even that’s daunting enough that they’re saving it for last) and it will instead connect to the easternmost point on one of LA’s commuter rail lines, a 90 minute ride from Downtown Los Angeles. This does make for some misleading advertising - Brightline proudly proclaims this service as being a 2 hour 10 minute journey, but the full downtown-to-downtown time is nearly double that. One of the many reasons a lot of people are more skeptical of this project.