The Life and Opinions of Nathan Atlasforum, Gentleman (AMA)

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

We're doing this again? Have at me.

[Vosem]

It's not really that controversial an opinion.

Kill Bill: why we must take Shakespeare out of the classroom

 Here's an op-ed discussing why Shakespeare is outdated and taught incorrectly anyways.

"Shakespeare is outdated" is absolutely not what this op-ed is saying. It's impossible for any remotely decent art to become "outdated" anyway; it just moves from being primarily of relevance to the HIP and NOW to being primarily of relevance to cultural history, a subject that rightists hate and have always hated.

Beyond the generality of this claim, isn’t it at least counter to stereotype? One finds rightists in every country depicted as overly interested in preserving the country’s glorious history and accomplishments, including cultural accomplishments, even if those were really not so great; while leftists are depicted as disinterested in what the country has already accomplished and more interested in highlighting flaws, or highlighting how the country might gain from borrowing foreign practices.

(These are extreme generalities to be sure; I think in the US at least the right is authentically interested in the society they want to create to the exclusion of whatever came before it, but this feels like an outlier applying to few countries or places which are not the 1990s-and-later United States.)

I have idiosyncratic "me" reasons for applying this claim more generally but I don't really feel like going down that rabbit hole at the moment so I'll concede the point for now.

Not sure if you feel like going down this rabbit hole now, but I'm curious as to what your idiosyncratic reasons are for applying this claim more generally.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It's not really that controversial an opinion.

Kill Bill: why we must take Shakespeare out of the classroom

 Here's an op-ed discussing why Shakespeare is outdated and taught incorrectly anyways.

"Shakespeare is outdated" is absolutely not what this op-ed is saying. It's impossible for any remotely decent art to become "outdated" anyway; it just moves from being primarily of relevance to the HIP and NOW to being primarily of relevance to cultural history, a subject that rightists hate and have always hated.

Beyond the generality of this claim, isn’t it at least counter to stereotype? One finds rightists in every country depicted as overly interested in preserving the country’s glorious history and accomplishments, including cultural accomplishments, even if those were really not so great; while leftists are depicted as disinterested in what the country has already accomplished and more interested in highlighting flaws, or highlighting how the country might gain from borrowing foreign practices.

(These are extreme generalities to be sure; I think in the US at least the right is authentically interested in the society they want to create to the exclusion of whatever came before it, but this feels like an outlier applying to few countries or places which are not the 1990s-and-later United States.)

I have idiosyncratic "me" reasons for applying this claim more generally but I don't really feel like going down that rabbit hole at the moment so I'll concede the point for now.

Not sure if you feel like going down this rabbit hole now, but I'm curious as to what your idiosyncratic reasons are for applying this claim more generally.

The short answer is that I'm using "rightist" as a snarl term that doesn't really mean the same thing as "conservative" or "right-of-center" or even "right-wing," but I think you deserve a somewhat more elaborated and nuanced answer, so:

Cultural and social history, as a field and even as an area of layman's interest, has a bottom-up/"people's history of [subject X]" ethos that I think is genuinely difficult to square with the political right's ethos of supporting hierarchical social relationships unless they're proven beyond all doubt to be socially pathological. (I know you don't see your own views this way, which is why we have that whole bit about you being a wild woke utopian and me being a stodgy agrarian reactionary.) It's not that an interest in past social mores and a commitment to right-wing politics can't coexist, but I think people on the political right who are genuinely invested in cultural history are engaging in at least some amount of doublethink--or, more charitably, dialectic--when it comes to what aspects of the past they care about and admire. Even to write a halfway decent history of, say, Victorian women's fashion, to name an aspect of social history interest in which is perceived as conservative-coded (at least for straight people), you have to spend a lot of time on people, places, and things that were traditionally beneath the notice of the ruling business and political classes.

[All Along The Watchtower]

1. Favorite Christian Democratic party/parties, past and/or present?

2. Favorite Social Democratic/Socialist party/parties, past and/or present?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

1. Favorite Christian Democratic party/parties, past and/or present?

I've memed myself into an unironic-in-an-ironic way affection for la balena bianca. Kuyper's old CHRISTIAN HISTORICAL UNION in the Netherlands has an amazing name, but I don't know much else about it and I don't really like most of what I do know about it. (ETA: I was mistaken about whether Kuyper was in the CHRISTIAN HISTORICAL UNION or the ANTI-REVOLUTIONARY PARTY. The CHU is the one whose name I enjoy.) In general I think Christian democracy is a tradition that produces better political thought than it does actual governance.

2. Favorite Social Democratic/Socialist party/parties, past and/or present?

I know this is a normie answer but the UK's Labour Party, despite its tendencies towards ropey policy culs-de-sac and hilarious factional politics, has achieved some genuinely incredible things over the course of its existence, and I have a lot of admiration for it. I also consider it an honorary Christian democratic party in the limited sense that it owes a lot ideologically and culturally to bleeding-heart nineteenth-century Methodism (an interesting genetic link with the early GOP).

[Battista Minola 1616]

On first thought "Labour is an honorary Christian democratic party" sounds like a violently Nathan posf, but on further reflection I am surprised I have never seen Al use exactly the same words in the same order. (I agree with the rest of the post entirely except that the ARP obviously had a much more fun name than the CHU.)

1. Which part of Japan is most (culturally, politically, etc.) similar to Southern Italy?

2. How do you think the Japanese electoral map would look like if the country had found itself with a "normal" party system and two sides with roughly equal strength?

[afleitch]

Politically (whether it's political or personal-political) what one 'thing' have you got absolutely wrong and what one thing have you nailed dead on, in the past few years.

[All Along The Watchtower]

On first thought "Labour is an honorary Christian democratic party" sounds like a violently Nathan posf, but on further reflection I am surprised I have never seen Al use exactly the same words in the same order.

This reminds me of my formulation about how the activist Left “needs less Marxism and more Socialism” in which I absolutely was ripping off Al, lmao

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

During what historical time period of both the Democrats and Republicans would you consider each party to be at their most Virgin part of their history and also their most Chad?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

What's up with New England? I've never been to your region and am fascinated by its unfortunately-probably-now-dead stereotypes, like Soufies and WASPs.

Also, what's up with Noah Kahan? And are his fans called Kahanists?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

During what historical time period of both the Democrats and Republicans would you consider each party to be at their most Virgin part of their history and also their most Chad?

Tough to say. This doesn't just correlate with party strength--Gilded Age Redeemers were not chads, and the dead-ender New Deal coalition opponents of Reaganism were not virgins--but it doesn't really correlate with the quality of the party's ideology or policy either--Reagan himself was not a virgin, and Biden, whom I like on most policy levels, is not really legible in this dichotomy at all. Overall I'd say the Democratic Party was at its most virgin in the 1850s and in the early 1920s and its most chad in the mid-1930s, and the Republican Party was at its most chad in the 1860s (obviously) and its most virgin throughout the FDR-Truman ventennio, even when it was doing well electorally.

What's up with New England? I've never been to your region and am fascinated by its unfortunately-probably-now-dead stereotypes, like Soufies and WASPs.

Huge question. The most consistent cultural traits are things like moralism, brusqueness, and an unusually high degree of emphasis on formal education by historical US standards, which are absolutely still with us today. The weather is unfortunately getting worse, and the traditional food isn't much to write home about, but I still favor it over any other region of this great land.

Also, what's up with Noah Kahan? And are his fans called Kahanists?

I don't know, but if they're not then they should be.

[Sol]

What are your thoughts on the regional boundaries of New England? You sometimes hear people talk about Eastern Upstate as being basically New England, does that ring true with your experience?

What, in your opinion, are the most beautiful segments of literature which you've read? (not thinking books, more like paragraphs or short poems).

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

On first thought "Labour is an honorary Christian democratic party" sounds like a violently Nathan posf, but on further reflection I am surprised I have never seen Al use exactly the same words in the same order. (I agree with the rest of the post entirely except that the ARP obviously had a much more fun name than the CHU.)

1. Which part of Japan is most (culturally, politically, etc.) similar to Southern Italy?

This has varied historically. The traditional answer for many hundreds of years would have been the southwestern peripheries of Kyushu and Shikoku, which had a similar political relationship to the rest of Japan (plenty of de facto local autonomy, little or no money...) and even some of the same traditional stereotypes about mindsets and behaviors (male homosexuality, brigandage, clannishness), but these were the parts of Japan that led the Meiji Restoration and later became quite prosperous and economically connected to mainland Asia, so I would say that now the closest equivalent to the Mezzogiorno would be Tohoku. Relatively remote, still fairly rural, very old population even by the standards of the country as a whole, political tendencies towards idiosyncratic independents or the economically heterodox right. The southern coastline of Shikoku and the northern coastline of the western tip of Honshu, however, are still areas that have some of these traits as well.

2. How do you think the Japanese electoral map would look like if the country had found itself with a "normal" party system and two sides with roughly equal strength?

I think Japan is the sort of country that would have relatively intact class voting due to the lack of major culture war cleavages (or rather the unusual nature of the culture war cleavages it does have), with some regional divides as well. There would be a broad east-west divide with Tohoku, Hokkaido, and much of Kanto to the left of everything else (you see this in the real 2009 map), an urban-rural divide (with the possible exception of Osaka) but one much weaker than in lots of other countries these days, and probably the pronounced tendencies towards the left that already do exist in places like Okinawa that are "nonstandard" culturally.

[Christian Man]

What's your favorite thread (at least of the ones that you can remember)?

[Alben Barkley]

Why did you become a Catholic and can you convince me I still should become one?

[All Along The Watchtower]

Opinion of Francis Xavier?

[LabourJersey]

Favorite piece of fiction you've read recently?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

What's your favorite thread (at least of the ones that you can remember)?

Like, on the forum, of all time? Any thread The Professor posted in was golden. The thread about whether black people can be racist that was unanimous until bronz of all people trotted out the "prejudice+power" talking point is a more recent standout.

Why did you become a Catholic and can you convince me I still should become one?

The deepest and most honest answer I can give to this is that my decision-making at the time had a lot to do with idiosyncracies of my relationships with my deceased grandparents, so no I cannot, unless your family history has a bunch of odd similarities with mine. What I will say is that if any belief system or current of thought interests you then you shouldn't entirely close yourself off to it, at least intellectually or hypothetically.

Opinion of Francis Xavier?

Fascinating person. Since he's a canonized saint I'm bound to believe he's in heaven, but that's true of a lot of people. I tend to think well of him personally too but there's obviously a ton to criticize with any Early Modern missionary.

If you look at his life and Ignatius Loyola's you see some really endearing human traits emerge. Both were from Basque nobility but Ignatius's family "just" had a manor out in the boonies, whereas Francis's father was the prime minister of Navarre. Francis was raised bilingual in Basque and something called Navarro-Aragonese, which was already endangered during his lifetime and is considered moribund or extinct now; it was somewhere between Catalan, Occitan, and Castilian. Ignatius was raised speaking only Basque and apparently struggled with languages; he never attained fluency in anything else and his prose style in the various Romance languages he picked up as an adult is apparently godawful. He's thought to have traded on a contemporary reputation of Basques as a martial race to get support for the Jesuit order (which to this day has a military-inspired organizational structure and internal terminology), and he may have put Francis in charge of the Asian missions in part because he was so much better at languages. (Ignatius only ever left Europe once, for a brief pilgrimage to Jerusalem.) Such distinct, familiar personalities!

Favorite piece of fiction you've read recently?

I had a great time with Konbini ningen by Murata Sayaka. It's available in English as Convenience Store Woman and the translation is fine except for the title; in Japanese the second word means human, not woman, and whoever decided to ghettoize the book as chick lit in English should be keelhauled.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

How would you have felt if you were present at HolyName's Furnace Fest set? (Previously touched on here.)

(note especially the beginning and 16:49.)

And for the record, the frontman of this band is the guy who wrote "I don't worship a concept, I follow a King."

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Politically (whether it's political or personal-political) what one 'thing' have you got absolutely wrong and what one thing have you nailed dead on, in the past few years.

In the past few years?

Dead right: support for Ukraine and grudging back-burnering of my pacifist instincts in favor of something slightly more Niebuhrian (ugh, I still hate to say it out loud, but it is what it is).
Dead wrong: I was a little too suspicious of Phil Scott and not nearly suspicious enough of Maura Healey. Diversity win! The governor who keeps line-item-vetoing support services for disabled children is a lesbian now!

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

What are your thoughts on the regional boundaries of New England? You sometimes hear people talk about Eastern Upstate as being basically New England, does that ring true with your experience?

In some ways, yeah. The traditional agricultural land use patterns--size of farm fields, general distance between small towns, etc.--change pretty dramatically into something more more Midwestern-adjacent (or at least more Pennsylvania-ish), but it happens after the Hudson, not after the Taconics. On the other hand the local political culture changes almost immediately at the state line (except in some places like Torie's "Birkenstock Belt" bits of Columbia County and, formerly, some of the areas along Lake Champlain), and of course "non-New England" is creeping eastward in the south just as "New England" bleeds westward in the north. There are also, of course, ways in which areas as far as Michigan or even Iowa still have discernible cultural connections to New England because of their settlement histories.

What, in your opinion, are the most beautiful segments of literature which you've read? (not thinking books, more like paragraphs or short poems).

This is a big enough question that I've held off answering this post for days now because of it, but here are the first three that come to mind:

From Beatrix Potter's "The Tailor of Gloucester":

But it is in the old story that all the beasts can talk, in the night between Christmas Eve and Christmas Day in the morning (though there are very few folk that can hear them, or know what it is that they say).

A poem by Christina Rossetti:

When I am dead, my dearest,
Sing no sad songs for me;
Plant thou no roses at my head,
Nor shady cypress tree:
Be the green grass above me
With showers and dewdrops wet;
And if thou wilt, remember,
And if thou wilt, forget.

I shall not see the shadows,
I shall not feel the rain;
I shall not hear the nightingale
Sing on, as if in pain:
And dreaming through the twilight
That doth not rise nor set,
Haply I may remember,
And haply may forget.

From Kamo no Chōmei's "Hōjōki"; Donald Keene's translation:

This is what my temporary hut is like. I shall now attempt to describe its surroundings. To the south there is a bamboo pipe which empties water into the rock pool I have laid. The woods come close to my house, and it is thus a simple matter for me to gather brushwood. The mountain is named Toyama. Creeping vines block the trails and the valleys are overgrown, but to the west is a clearing, and my surroundings thus do not leave me without spiritual comfort.— In the spring I see waves of wistaria like purple clouds, bright in the west. In the summer I hear the cuckoo call, promising to guide me on the road of death. In the autumn the voice of the evening insects fills my ears with a sound of lamentation for this cracked husk of a world. In winter I look with deep emotion on the snow, piling up and melting away like sins and hindrances to salvation.

When I do not feel like reciting the nembutsu — and cannot put my heart into reading the Sutras, no one will keep me from resting or being lazy, and there is no friend who will feel ashamed of me. Even though I make no special attempt to observe the discipline of silence, living alone automatically makes me refrain from the sins of speech; and though I do not necessarily try to obey the precepts, here where there are no temptations what should induce me to break them?

Basil Bunting, of whom Al will almost certainly have heard even if nobody else reading this thread will have, has a poem closely paraphrasing the Hōjōki where he renders the last part "There’s a Lent of commandments kept where there’s no way to break them," which I'd like in the service booklet for my funeral when I die.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

How would you have felt if you were present at HolyName's Furnace Fest set? (Previously touched on here.)

(note especially the beginning and 16:49.)

And for the record, the frontman of this band is the guy who wrote "I don't worship a concept, I follow a King."

Overstimulated, but also sort of fascinated as a sociological matter to experience this side of American Christian culture.

Also, regarding an earlier answer, I was mistaken in thinking that the Mezziogorno had a higher median age than other parts of Italy, but the other points of my analysis stand.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

この日本の都道府県は一番好きですか?

[America needs a 13-6 Progressive SCOTUS]

Where would you draw the line between Upstate and Downstate NY?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

この日本の都道府県は一番好きですか?

青森県は私の第一です。個人的な懐かしさと寒冷地にある田舎の美的特質のおかげで、深く感動します。