What does "from the river to the sea " mean ?

[lfromnj]

I kinda put it with the Confederate flag. The original basis of that was fighting to preserve slavery but there is both a regional and rebel symbol to it now .

[Dr. MB]

As much as "free Palestine" does. It's gonna depend on who you ask. Assigning everyone saying it a particular meaning, the person's narrow interpretation of the phrase, is ridiculous, especially when they've demonstrated their interpretation of it is very different than what the people accusing them think it means.

[Antonio the Sixth]

As much as "free Palestine" does. It's gonna depend on who you ask. Assigning everyone saying it a particular meaning, the person's narrow interpretation of the phrase, is ridiculous, especially when they've demonstrated their interpretation of it is very different than what the people accusing them think it means.

That's all fair and good, but you could say the same for "Make America Great Again" (or heck, even the 14 words). There comes a point where a slogan is too compromised for it to be effective at representing a worthwhile political project, and it actually brings together people who should not be working together. Supporters of a democratic one-state solution should not be marching hand in hand with ethnonationalists who think all Israelis should be thrown into the sea.

[Dr. MB]

As much as "free Palestine" does. It's gonna depend on who you ask. Assigning everyone saying it a particular meaning, the person's narrow interpretation of the phrase, is ridiculous, especially when they've demonstrated their interpretation of it is very different than what the people accusing them think it means.

That's all fair and good, but you could say the same for "Make America Great Again" (or heck, even the 14 words). There comes a point where a slogan is too compromised for it to be effective at representing a worthwhile political project, and it actually brings together people who should not be working together. Supporters of a democratic one-state solution should not be marching hand in hand with ethnonationalists who think all Israelis should be thrown into the sea.

I'd argue that the phrasing has gone the opposite way of MAGA or the Confederate flag. Make America Great Again was used by a few different campaigns including Bill Clinton before it was coopted by Trump, transforming it from a vague phrase that wasn't really identifiable with any one candidate or movement to one with a very specific meaning. Donald Trump and his supporters are the only ones using MAGA these days.

Or the Confederate flag, which did have a more widely accepted "Southern pride" usage divorced from racism and was used in that context more widely until the last decade or two. Nowadays if you see someone flying a Confederate flag you can get a pretty good guess of where they stand but that wasn't the case, necessarily, in the past. And once it became more controversial, people who didn't want to be associated with racism stopped using it.

But From the River to the Sea started out as a phrase used by the PLO with a meaning closer to what people are accusing it of being these days (although not entirely accurate), that gradually branched out and became used by people of all stripes who support Palestine, including support for a binational state. I don't think the slogan is particularly useful especially given how divisive it is, and it distracts from the real issues at hand, but it's not going away and painting everyone or even a majority of people who use it as genocidal/antisemitic/wanting ethnic cleansing is a troubling and demonstrably false take that's meant to delegitimize opposition to Israel's invasion/bombing of Gaza and U.S. support for it, and Israel/Israeli policy in general.

[Antonio the Sixth]

But From the River to the Sea started out as a phrase used by the PLO with a meaning closer to what people are accusing it of being these days (although not entirely accurate), that gradually branched out and became used by people of all stripes who support Palestine, including support for a binational state. I don't think the slogan is particularly useful especially given how divisive it is, and it distracts from the real issues at hand, but it's not going away and painting everyone or even a majority of people who use it as genocidal/antisemitic/wanting ethnic cleansing is a troubling and demonstrably false take that's meant to delegitimize opposition to Israel's invasion/bombing of Gaza and U.S. support for it, and Israel/Israeli policy in general.

I'm not saying everyone who uses this slogan is an antisemite, obviously, but can we acknowledge that there's maybe a bit of a problem when so many people within this movement are so willing to adopt a slogan with antisemitic roots and connotations? Like, is is really that hard to say "we don't f**k with that sh*t" and find a different chant? But no, many of these people (whom I am sure don't think of themselves as antisemites) seem to revel in the transgressiveness of it all. I think that does speak to a serious problem within the "pro-Palestinian" crowd that does in the long run contribute to the spread of antisemitic beliefs and tropes.

[Blue3]

I’d say it doesn’t mean genocide. It means a fair system, whether that’s a one state solution or a two/three state solution. But leaning more to one-state solution. Some also equate it with decolonization, and Israel as a colonial power, and don’t see it different than asking the British to give up power in South Africa and India.

[Pericles]

My impression is that it means a one-state solution (despite Green Line Palestine technically extending from the river to the sea). This could mean a democratic state with equal rights for all citizens. That's a naive notion and it could have anti-semitic practical results. It seems like a reach to think everyone using it wants to harm the Jewish people living in Israel though.

[dead0man]

so, when is it ok to use phrases some people find offensive?  There are tens of thousands of college students out there (and probably an Atlas poster or three) who think the word niggardly (on edit I see even the AI censorship bot thinks its a bad word) should be removed from dictionaries but think "from the river to the sea" is not only acceptable, but something that they themselves enjoy shouting.  These people think it's a grave insult to call someone by the wrong gender, have no problem ruining a young person's life because one of them thought she heard something she didn't and will cry to the authorities if you write a politicians name in chalk that they don't like, but have no problem with a phrase that is interpreted by almost everyone to mean a genocide and is meant that way by most of the people shouting it.

[wnwnwn]

To me it means one state solution and forced removsl (not genocide) of the other side.

[Electric Circus]

Coming from activism-poisoned westerners, it's edgy signalling to the in-group that is meant to make others uncomfortable. Threatening, but on the edge of plausible deniability. "Pay attention to me (or you might regret it later)."

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

Someone posted in the international board’s thread that it had two meanings in the way “All lives matter,” did. I can’t think of a better comparison.

[Dr. MB]

Here’s a good and nuanced article from the NYTimes: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/us/politics/river-to-the-sea-israel-gaza-palestinians.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

[Samof94]

I kinda put it with the Confederate flag. The original basis of that was fighting to preserve slavery but there is both a regional and rebel symbol to it now .

Holocaust 2, Electric Boogaloo

[FT-02 Senator A.F.E. 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

Nothing really. It's just one of the many ways water moves through the water cycle

[HisGrace]

At the very least it means expelling all Jews from the general area and turning into an Arabs only state. If you claim to be ignorant of that using the phrase I think you're operating in bad faith. I'm not going to say it automatically equates to supporting a genocide against Jews although it is very frequently used to support that as well.

As another person said, if you're a mainstream left-liberal who wants a two state solution or a one state solution with a multi ethnic Israel this is not the kind of thing that represents your position.

[ingemann]

For stupid people it means a lot of things, while for people with average intelligence or above it either means the killing or expulsion of Jews in the territory between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea.

[ingemann]

Someone posted in the international board’s thread that it had two meanings in the way “All lives matter,” did. I can’t think of a better comparison.

It have different meaning in the same way that 1488 have different meanings. Meaning that in the context of the Israel-Palestine conflict the meaning is incredible clear.

[Samof94]

Nothing really. It's just one of the many ways water moves through the water cycle

Like River Liffey?