Can we get a list of Atlas posters that are neutral on Israel/Palestine and Russia/Ukraine?

[Saint Milei]

Just want to see how many of us exist in 2023

[Ferguson97]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_invertebrates

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It's a lot easier to find people who are neutral on Israel/Palestine in the sense of siding against Hamas in the current moment but thinking that ~The Conflict~ as a whole is the way it is because of decades of indefensible actions and decisions on both sides. The Russia/Ukraine situation doesn't really allow for that interpretation.

[It’s so Joever]

I am morally ambiguous on Israel Palestine but think the US has nothing to lose by supporting Israel a bit now.

Obviously I am strongly pro Ukraine and approve of what John Dule said for that reason.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

There are non-standard ways to be pro-Ukraine, and some posters here are not really anti-Russian in a general sense, like yours truly. But I've also been among the most consistent defenders of Ukrainian aid and giving Ukraine latitude to fight how it wants. Compartmentalization...working with Russia as needed for American foreign policy goals (and they remain a powerful country and a non-pariah in the world as a whole), while undermining them in Ukraine.

As for Israel-Palestine, I am a neutral in the sense of being anti-Hamas and anti-Bibi in instinct. But owing to me being Muslim and most of my family being Muslim, I do lean pro-Palestinian. Nonetheless, reality is messy and it is clear there are many actions on both sides  that cannot be portrayed as downright moral/constructive for peace, finding resolution to the current flare-up and having the least bad possible thing happen if a bad thing is bound to happen at all are things I might tolerate out of pragmatism. Things won't improve substantially until the leadership on both sides improves, and the present situation is sad yet borderline-inevitable given the choices that those in the region have made.

[Saint Milei]

It's a lot easier to find people who are neutral on Israel/Palestine in the sense of siding against Hamas in the current moment but thinking that ~The Conflict~ as a whole is the way it is because of decades of indefensible actions and decisions on both sides. The Russia/Ukraine situation doesn't really allow for that interpretation.

This is an insane take.

[Ferguson97]

It's a lot easier to find people who are neutral on Israel/Palestine in the sense of siding against Hamas in the current moment but thinking that ~The Conflict~ as a whole is the way it is because of decades of indefensible actions and decisions on both sides. The Russia/Ukraine situation doesn't really allow for that interpretation.

This is an insane take.

How are Russia's actions defensible?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

It's a lot easier to find people who are neutral on Israel/Palestine in the sense of siding against Hamas in the current moment but thinking that ~The Conflict~ as a whole is the way it is because of decades of indefensible actions and decisions on both sides. The Russia/Ukraine situation doesn't really allow for that interpretation.

This is an insane take.

Russia-Ukraine is itself kind of new, actually. Russia had sphere primacy until 2014 and was secure in its place. Ukraine generally elected pro-Russian presidents. Russia's military base in Sevastopol was secure. Ukraine being an anti-Russian place is very recent, in that sense it's nothing like Israel-Palestine where despite land being an issue in both, the wound in I vs P are far deeper; the breakdown in UA vs RU relations goes down to Vladimir Putin and his more recent incompetence in key foreign policy domains for Russia.

Hell, in 2019 80% of Russians thought positively of Ukrainians as a people and vice versa. You don't see that sort of divide in Israel vs Palestine, at all.

[jojoju1998]

I support Ukraine. But am neutral on Israel/Palestine.

[Horus]

TimTurner is neutral on everything.

[Ferguson97]

TimTurner is neutral on everything.

Except his support for Erdogan lmao

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Jaichind in practice. Literally just in it for the hustle.

[Cashew]

I think the best thing for all outsiders of the conflict to do is recognize how privileged we are.

How many of you can honestly tell me with absolute certainty that if you were in the shoes of a holocaust survivor desperate to prevent another one no matter the cost you wouldn't support the Nakba, and justify it as "better them than us?"

How many of you can tell me with absolute certainty that if you were born in poverty in a refugee camp or in Gaza because your father's neighborhood got ethnically cleansed in 1948 that you would not be seeking a right to return? What if you were a part of one of those families who had their homes demolished just recently so they could get rebuilt and squatted on by settlers, how many if you wouldn't be seething in hatred after that?

Most people I see discussing it have not lived through any of that, so why do so many people debase themselves to the point of genocidal bloodlust for a conflict that they do not even have any life or death stake in?

I view the Israeli Palestian conflict as a hobbseian struggle that Israel has won, not a matter of good vs evil. The founding of Israel was most certainly not as spotless as most of Israel's supporters portray it as, but the people responsible are now dead. Palestinian wrath and obsinacy are understandable considering the situation, but as time goes on refusing to accept obvious defeat makes you increasingly liable for the continuation of the conflict. At this point the best path forward for Palestinians is to accept that Israel holds all the cards, and that military conflict is futile even if it does mean overlooking past injustice.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

TimTurner is neutral on everything.

That's definitely not true, I'm against the Swiss People's Party.

[Saint Milei]

It's a lot easier to find people who are neutral on Israel/Palestine in the sense of siding against Hamas in the current moment but thinking that ~The Conflict~ as a whole is the way it is because of decades of indefensible actions and decisions on both sides. The Russia/Ukraine situation doesn't really allow for that interpretation.

This is an insane take.

Russia-Ukraine is itself kind of new, actually. Russia had sphere primacy until 2014 and was secure in its place. Ukraine generally elected pro-Russian presidents. Russia's military base in Sevastopol was secure. Ukraine being an anti-Russian place is very recent, in that sense it's nothing like Israel-Palestine where despite land being an issue in both, the wound in I vs P are far deeper; the breakdown in UA vs RU relations goes down to Vladimir Putin and his more recent incompetence in key foreign policy domains for Russia.

Hell, in 2019 80% of Russians thought positively of Ukrainians as a people and vice versa. You don't see that sort of divide in Israel vs Palestine, at all.

Ukraine allowed itself to be a vassal state in between two great powers. That's indefensible on its part.

[Red Velvet]

I am neutral on both.

I find it funny that a lot of people here are in Ukraine-Israel camps though, even if their contexts are complete opposites to each other.

Israel has more parallels to Russia and Palestine to Ukraine, so I end up seeing people change their moral arguments according to whatever is more convenient to their self-interests / cultural alignment.

[Aurelius2]

I am neutral on both.

I find it funny that a lot of people here are in Ukraine-Israel camps though, even if their contexts are complete opposites to each other.

Israel has more parallels to Russia and Palestine to Ukraine, so I end up seeing people change their moral arguments according to whatever is more convenient to their self-interests / cultural alignment.

Both Israel and Ukraine stand for civilization, humanity and righteousness in the face of murderous savagery.

[T'Chenka]

Smart people will criticize the Israeli government AND Hamas. Both have done bad things. If that's a "neutral" position, then probably lots of posters.

[Red Velvet]

I am neutral on both.

I find it funny that a lot of people here are in Ukraine-Israel camps though, even if their contexts are complete opposites to each other.

Israel has more parallels to Russia and Palestine to Ukraine, so I end up seeing people change their moral arguments according to whatever is more convenient to their self-interests / cultural alignment.

Both Israel and Ukraine stand for civilization, humanity and righteousness in the face of murderous savagery.

This comment fits in my point about moral hypocrisy / inconsistency being accepted in order to fit for better cultural alignment.

Russia and Israel = Invading stronger powers taking someone else’s land

Ukraine and Palestine = Reactive forces who attack the ones invading them

I don’t mind people using their selfish goals as parameter for geopolitical actions and positions though, as long as they’re honest and direct about it and don’t pretend to be following some universal moral code or rules-based order standards.

There’s nothing I look down on more than people who use propaganda “hero or villain” talk to drive up emotional and simplistic responses to conflicts, constantly adapting what exactly defines a hero or a villain to whatever fits their interests better.

If Ukraine reacts to Russian land grabbing, it becomes an act of bravery because “Russia evil”. If Palestine does the same, it’s terrorism because the ones they’re up against are whiter and closer to the West.

[It’s so Joever]

I am neutral on both.

I find it funny that a lot of people here are in Ukraine-Israel camps though, even if their contexts are complete opposites to each other.

Israel has more parallels to Russia and Palestine to Ukraine, so I end up seeing people change their moral arguments according to whatever is more convenient to their self-interests / cultural alignment.

Both Israel and Ukraine stand for civilization, humanity and righteousness in the face of murderous savagery.

This comment fits in my point about moral hypocrisy / inconsistency being accepted to fit for better cultural alignment.

Russia and Israel = Invading stronger powers taking someone else’s land

Ukraine and Palestine = Reactive forces who attack the ones invading them

I don’t mind people using their selfish goals as parameter for geopolitical actions and positions though, as long as they’re honest and direct about it and don’t pretend to be following some universal moral code or rules-based order standards.

There’s nothing I look down on more than people who use propaganda “hero or villain” talk to drive up emotional and simplistic responses to conflicts, constantly adapting what exactly defines a hero or a villain.

If Ukraine reacts to Russian land grabbing, it becomes an act of bravery because “Russia evil”. If Palestine does the same, it’s terrorism because the ones they’re up against are whiter and closet to the West.

Palestine initiated the invasion but on the other hand was being invaded by settlers for years prior and nobody did anything.

Russia invaded Ukraine and initiated it on their own without strong excuse.

Not the same.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

[Red Velvet]

I am neutral on both.

I find it funny that a lot of people here are in Ukraine-Israel camps though, even if their contexts are complete opposites to each other.

Israel has more parallels to Russia and Palestine to Ukraine, so I end up seeing people change their moral arguments according to whatever is more convenient to their self-interests / cultural alignment.

Both Israel and Ukraine stand for civilization, humanity and righteousness in the face of murderous savagery.

This comment fits in my point about moral hypocrisy / inconsistency being accepted to fit for better cultural alignment.

Russia and Israel = Invading stronger powers taking someone else’s land

Ukraine and Palestine = Reactive forces who attack the ones invading them

I don’t mind people using their selfish goals as parameter for geopolitical actions and positions though, as long as they’re honest and direct about it and don’t pretend to be following some universal moral code or rules-based order standards.

There’s nothing I look down on more than people who use propaganda “hero or villain” talk to drive up emotional and simplistic responses to conflicts, constantly adapting what exactly defines a hero or a villain.

If Ukraine reacts to Russian land grabbing, it becomes an act of bravery because “Russia evil”. If Palestine does the same, it’s terrorism because the ones they’re up against are whiter and closet to the West.

Palestine initiated the invasion but on the other hand was being invaded by settlers for years prior and nobody did anything.

Russia invaded Ukraine and initiated it on their own without strong excuse.

Not the same.

You’re sooo close to getting it through the part I bolded. And yet, still so distant that you will never reach it.

I’ll try helping: Why exactly do you think no one did/does anything when Palestine is occupied by settlers, while an outrage and actions are mobilized for the sake of Ukraine when their land possession is compromised??

[It’s so Joever]

I am neutral on both.

I find it funny that a lot of people here are in Ukraine-Israel camps though, even if their contexts are complete opposites to each other.

Israel has more parallels to Russia and Palestine to Ukraine, so I end up seeing people change their moral arguments according to whatever is more convenient to their self-interests / cultural alignment.

Both Israel and Ukraine stand for civilization, humanity and righteousness in the face of murderous savagery.

This comment fits in my point about moral hypocrisy / inconsistency being accepted to fit for better cultural alignment.

Russia and Israel = Invading stronger powers taking someone else’s land

Ukraine and Palestine = Reactive forces who attack the ones invading them

I don’t mind people using their selfish goals as parameter for geopolitical actions and positions though, as long as they’re honest and direct about it and don’t pretend to be following some universal moral code or rules-based order standards.

There’s nothing I look down on more than people who use propaganda “hero or villain” talk to drive up emotional and simplistic responses to conflicts, constantly adapting what exactly defines a hero or a villain.

If Ukraine reacts to Russian land grabbing, it becomes an act of bravery because “Russia evil”. If Palestine does the same, it’s terrorism because the ones they’re up against are whiter and closet to the West.

Palestine initiated the invasion but on the other hand was being invaded by settlers for years prior and nobody did anything.

Russia invaded Ukraine and initiated it on their own without strong excuse.

Not the same.

You’re sooo close to getting it through the part I bolded. And yet, still so distant that you will never reach it.

If I’m wrong you would best be served explaining how instead of making a vague suggestion I may or may not be.

[Hindsight was 2020]

I am neutral on both.

I find it funny that a lot of people here are in Ukraine-Israel camps though, even if their contexts are complete opposites to each other.

Israel has more parallels to Russia and Palestine to Ukraine, so I end up seeing people change their moral arguments according to whatever is more convenient to their self-interests / cultural alignment.

Yeah you’re so neutral you said South Americans who support or volunteer to fight for Ukraine are self hating, European boot licking fascists and reaction to Russia’s war crimes was literally post “yawn”.

[Horus]

I am neutral on both.

I find it funny that a lot of people here are in Ukraine-Israel camps though, even if their contexts are complete opposites to each other.

Israel has more parallels to Russia and Palestine to Ukraine, so I end up seeing people change their moral arguments according to whatever is more convenient to their self-interests / cultural alignment.

Yeah you’re so neutral you said South Americans who support or volunteer to fight for Ukraine are self hating, European boot licking fascists and reaction to Russia’s war crimes was literally post “yawn”.

I don't believe he's neutral but the last sentence in his post is 100% factual.