Israel-Gaza war

[Meclazine for Israel]

Would Ireland/Norway/Spain have recognized Palestine in 2024 if 10/7 didn't happen?
No they likely wouldn't have.
Therefore logic follows that if Hamas's goal was to further the Palestinian cause they were 100% successful in their aims and the world is rewarding them for 10/7/.
Explain why someone whose number one goal is to support the Palestinian cause shouldn't support more 10/7s?

Good point.

However, I wouldn't say 100% successful.

Look carefully at the history of Palestinian migration to Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait and I am not sure you could qualify success in terms of a very high percentage.

Then add to that the killing, raping and kidnapping, including dead bodies () Of Israeli's on Oct 7.

Not exactly a resume of success.

[pppolitics]

Ireland, Spain and Norway say they will recognize a Palestinian state

CNN - Ireland, Spain and Norway have announced plans to formally recognize a Palestinian state next week, in a move that is likely to bolster the global Palestinian cause but further strain relations between Europe and Israel.

The three European nations say their landmark decision is the best way to achieve lasting peace in the Middle East, but it sparked swift condemnation from Israel, as its foreign minister ordered the immediate recall of its ambassadors from those countries.

Most of the world already recognizes Palestinian statehood. More than 140 out of 193 member states of the United Nations have made their recognition official. But only some nations in the 27-member European Union are among them.

Irish Prime Minister Simon Harris told a Wednesday news conference in Dublin: “Today, Ireland, Norway and Spain are announcing that we recognize the state of Palestine. Each of us will now undertake whatever national steps are necessary to give effect to that decision.”

[...]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/middleeast/palestinian-statehood-spain-norway-ireland-intl/index.html

Belgium will likely follow. It's just one government party (MR) that is standing on the brakes here, but I suspect we will eventually recognise Palestine as well.

Belgium is likely the next country to recognize Palestine.

[pppolitics]

The War Is Shifting Europe’s Politics Away From Israel

In Europe, long a vital source of support for Israel, the political center of gravity is moving away from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government.

Spain, Ireland and Norway on Wednesday recognized Palestinian statehood, despite vehement Israeli and American opposition. And most European governments offered unequivocal support to the International Criminal Court this week, after it requested arrest warrants for Israel’s prime minister and defense minister, along with leaders of Hamas.

Israel still has staunch allies within the European Union, especially Hungary and the Czech Republic, and key players like Germany, despite growing discomfort with Israel’s conduct, have not shown any inclination to alter their stance. The growing fissures within Europe mean that the consensus-driven European Union will not change its positions any time soon.

But European countries face rising international and domestic pressure to take a firmer stand against Israel’s handling of the Palestinian territories, and particularly the devastating war in Gaza.

Among European Union members, Sweden has for a decade stood alone in recognizing Palestinian statehood. Europe has long supported the eventual creation of a Palestinian state — the “two-state solution” that Israel’s government steadfastly opposes — and voiced frustration with Israel’s handling of the Gaza Strip and the occupied West Bank, but most nations have been unwilling to go further.

[...]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/22/world/middleeast/europe-israel-palestinian-state.html

[pppolitics]

US ‘concerned’ by Israel’s isolation, Biden national security adviser says

The US is concerned about Israel’s growing diplomatic isolation among countries that have traditionally supported it, Joe Biden’s national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, said on Wednesday.

Sullivan’s remarks, at a White House briefing, followed the announcement by Ireland, Spain and Norway that they will next week formally recognise a Palestinian state. They also came amid efforts by the Biden administration and Congress to coordinate a response to a decision by the international criminal court (ICC) to seek an arrest warrant for Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, over Israeli actions in Gaza.

Asked if he was concerned about Israel’s diplomatic isolation, Sullivan – who is due to visit the country in the coming days – answered affirmatively.

“I think it’s a fair question,” he said. “As a country that stands strong in defense of Israel in international forums like the United Nations, we certainly have seen a growing chorus of voices, including voices that had previously been in support of Israel, drift in another direction. That is of concern to us because we do not believe that that contributes to Israel’s long-term security or vitality … So that’s something we have discussed with the Israeli government.”

[...]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/22/israel-national-security-jake-sullivan

[Storr]

Ireland, Spain and Norway say they will recognize a Palestinian state

CNN - Ireland, Spain and Norway have announced plans to formally recognize a Palestinian state next week, in a move that is likely to bolster the global Palestinian cause but further strain relations between Europe and Israel.

The three European nations say their landmark decision is the best way to achieve lasting peace in the Middle East, but it sparked swift condemnation from Israel, as its foreign minister ordered the immediate recall of its ambassadors from those countries.

Most of the world already recognizes Palestinian statehood. More than 140 out of 193 member states of the United Nations have made their recognition official. But only some nations in the 27-member European Union are among them.

Irish Prime Minister Simon Harris told a Wednesday news conference in Dublin: “Today, Ireland, Norway and Spain are announcing that we recognize the state of Palestine. Each of us will now undertake whatever national steps are necessary to give effect to that decision.”

[...]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/middleeast/palestinian-statehood-spain-norway-ireland-intl/index.html

Belgium will likely follow. It's just one government party (MR) that is standing on the brakes here, but I suspect we will eventually recognise Palestine as well.

Belgium is likely the next country to recognize Palestine.

Not to mention Malta and Slovenia which said today "they may follow suit, though not immediately".

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-palestinian-state-recognition-what-to-know-ed18d4cc50b20c8238e0de0068080eb0

[LAKISYLVANIA]

For Belgium, the problem is that we have elections soon so if a change in government occurs (which i don't consider super likely though, but it's possible) we likely would end up with a more divided government on the issue.

However i do still think that we will follow suit, just will take a bit more time due to the election in between and the fact that this is the lame duck period and that forming a government might take a very long time traditionally, meaning that the lame duck session could easily last another two years.

But our SOS is from MR and she made it quite clear that she follows the decision of ICC so make no doubt about on whose side we are. Anyone else in the government is to her left and more pro-Palestine basically.

Even the more right wing former chair from Open VLD openly sides with Palestine expressing support for the student protests. And so does the N-VA candidate for West-Flanders who is a libertarian-minded independent who heads the list and in disagreement with everyone else of N-VA there. He says he's Pro-Palestine because of his travels to Palestine in the early 2000s and his experiences there, but he's basically a right-wing libertarian, more like Rand Paul or something, with a bit of populism intermixed. In a double interview with someone from PVDA (communist), the headline stated that it was the only issue they both agreed on... Israel-Palestine.

It's part of the reason why i'm also quite disappointed in the forum. And yes ironically, i am more in agreement with users like DeadPrez here than with some center-left users here, who have a much better take on Israel-Palestine than users like Lief and Ray Goldfield etc. So ... in a lot of ways the double interview makes quite a bit of sense, it's like i would have one with DeadPrez.

[omar04]

Would Ireland/Norway/Spain have recognized Palestine in 2024 if 10/7 didn't happen?
No they likely wouldn't have.
Therefore logic follows that if Hamas's goal was to further the Palestinian cause they were 100% successful in their aims and the world is rewarding them for 10/7/.
Explain why someone whose number one goal is to support the Palestinian cause shouldn't support more 10/7s?

They likely wouldn't have recognized Palestine if Israel hadn't bombarded Gaza for six months, indiscriminately killing and maiming thousands of innocent people, making Palestine an even larger cause celebre in these countries. Logic should be not to commit horrific war crimes because it might just backfire.

Or if these kinds of plans weren't being advocated right now:

Under the auspices of Gaza 2035, the new free trade zone would be administered by Israel, Egypt, and what the Israeli Prime Minister calls the Gaza Rehabilitation Authority (GRA)—a proposed Palestinian-run agency that would oversee reconstruction in Gaza and “manage the Strip’s finances.”

The PowerPoint affirms that the GRA would not deliver Palestinian statehood and makes no reference to a two-state system. Instead, by 2035, Gaza and the West Bank would be placed under the “nominal administration” of the Palestinian Authority (PA) and Israel would be responsible for the free trade zone’s security. yNet correspondent Ron Ben Yishai called Gaza 2035 Benjamin Netanyahu’s “Singapore vision.”

https://www.archpaper.com/2024/05/benjamin-netanyahu-unveils-regional-plan-free-trade-zone-rail-service-neom/

[Devils30]

Ireland, Spain and Norway say they will recognize a Palestinian state

CNN - Ireland, Spain and Norway have announced plans to formally recognize a Palestinian state next week, in a move that is likely to bolster the global Palestinian cause but further strain relations between Europe and Israel.

The three European nations say their landmark decision is the best way to achieve lasting peace in the Middle East, but it sparked swift condemnation from Israel, as its foreign minister ordered the immediate recall of its ambassadors from those countries.

Most of the world already recognizes Palestinian statehood. More than 140 out of 193 member states of the United Nations have made their recognition official. But only some nations in the 27-member European Union are among them.

Irish Prime Minister Simon Harris told a Wednesday news conference in Dublin: “Today, Ireland, Norway and Spain are announcing that we recognize the state of Palestine. Each of us will now undertake whatever national steps are necessary to give effect to that decision.”

[...]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/middleeast/palestinian-statehood-spain-norway-ireland-intl/index.html

Belgium will likely follow. It's just one government party (MR) that is standing on the brakes here, but I suspect we will eventually recognise Palestine as well.

Belgium is likely the next country to recognize Palestine.

You do realize it’s merely recognizing Palestine in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem, land that everyone knows Israel would allow to be in a Palestinian state in a negotiated treaty. Israel even offered this to Palestinians in 2000 and they said no.

Unfortunately you guys want to destroy Israel more than you seek a thriving Palestinian state.

[Ancestral Republican]

Ireland, Spain and Norway say they will recognize a Palestinian state

CNN - Ireland, Spain and Norway have announced plans to formally recognize a Palestinian state next week, in a move that is likely to bolster the global Palestinian cause but further strain relations between Europe and Israel.

The three European nations say their landmark decision is the best way to achieve lasting peace in the Middle East, but it sparked swift condemnation from Israel, as its foreign minister ordered the immediate recall of its ambassadors from those countries.

Most of the world already recognizes Palestinian statehood. More than 140 out of 193 member states of the United Nations have made their recognition official. But only some nations in the 27-member European Union are among them.

Irish Prime Minister Simon Harris told a Wednesday news conference in Dublin: “Today, Ireland, Norway and Spain are announcing that we recognize the state of Palestine. Each of us will now undertake whatever national steps are necessary to give effect to that decision.”

[...]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/middleeast/palestinian-statehood-spain-norway-ireland-intl/index.html

Belgium will likely follow. It's just one government party (MR) that is standing on the brakes here, but I suspect we will eventually recognise Palestine as well.

Belgium is likely the next country to recognize Palestine.

You do realize it’s merely recognizing Palestine in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem, land that everyone knows Israel would allow to be in a Palestinian state in a negotiated treaty. Israel even offered this to Palestinians in 2000 and they said no.

Unfortunately you guys want to destroy Israel more than you seek a thriving Palestinian state.

Yoav Gallant just today announced that formerly demolished illegal settlements in the West Bank will be re-established.

[Open Source Intelligence]

Would Ireland/Norway/Spain have recognized Palestine in 2024 if 10/7 didn't happen?
No they likely wouldn't have.
Therefore logic follows that if Hamas's goal was to further the Palestinian cause they were 100% successful in their aims and the world is rewarding them for 10/7/.
Explain why someone whose number one goal is to support the Palestinian cause shouldn't support more 10/7s?

They likely wouldn't have recognized Palestine if Israel hadn't bombarded Gaza for six months, indiscriminately killing and maiming thousands of innocent people, making Palestine an even larger cause celebre in these countries. Logic should be not to commit horrific war crimes because it might just backfire.

Or if these kinds of plans weren't being advocated right now:

Under the auspices of Gaza 2035, the new free trade zone would be administered by Israel, Egypt, and what the Israeli Prime Minister calls the Gaza Rehabilitation Authority (GRA)—a proposed Palestinian-run agency that would oversee reconstruction in Gaza and “manage the Strip’s finances.”

The PowerPoint affirms that the GRA would not deliver Palestinian statehood and makes no reference to a two-state system. Instead, by 2035, Gaza and the West Bank would be placed under the “nominal administration” of the Palestinian Authority (PA) and Israel would be responsible for the free trade zone’s security. yNet correspondent Ron Ben Yishai called Gaza 2035 Benjamin Netanyahu’s “Singapore vision.”

https://www.archpaper.com/2024/05/benjamin-netanyahu-unveils-regional-plan-free-trade-zone-rail-service-neom/

Does the Gaza Strip have the education system to support being a Singapore? If not how do you plan on enticing high-educated workers to move to Gaza to support this free trade zone?

[Silent Hunter]

I am not sure Israel has the economic or military capacity for any long-term occupation of Gaza. The US in Itaq increasingly relied on Iraqi forces to do the actual ground fighting and dying, especially post-2011 against Daesh.

In the West Bank, they only occupy the less populated areas and will only go into the PA-administered areas for raids.

In Gaza, there is no such local force who could do the bleeding for them.

Bombing is cheaper than building.

Hamas has likely lost access to all its weapons sources since Israel got control of the Philadelphi Corridor., but probably have enough weaponry stockpiled for some months.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I think you have to translate what Netanyahu is saying. He's saying he wants to annex Gaza and hope all the Palestinians leave. Then it can be just as rich as the rest of Israel.

[Silent Hunter]

In terms of diplomatic recognition, most Western nations never broke off diplomatic relations with Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania after the Soviet annexation in 1940.

Didn't do much on the actual ground.

Taiwan, official diplomatic recognition count twelve, has more effective independence than Palestine.  Kosovo is another example.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

My understanding is that France and Germany said they’d respect the independence of the ICC, but did not commit to enforcing the warrants.  Idk about Spain

I don't think your understanding was correct.

https://twitter.com/Megatron_ron/status/1793302608725127552

[Silent Hunter]

Germany remains the second biggest weapons seller to Israel though.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

https://twitter.com/IsraelMFA/status/1793342247460626663

[LAKISYLVANIA]

https://twitter.com/Nassreddin2002/status/1793273086059380796

For Belgium specifically, it's a postponement on recognition of Palestine.

There was some criticism from former OVLD chair (on the right faction) and VLD youth on the decision to delay recognition of Palestine also.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Hopefully the Sanction the ICC Bill passes quickly.

[Rubensim]

Hopefully the Sanction the ICC Bill passes quickly.

It probably will but oh God the protests not just from diplomats but from college campuses across america
I can already see the blue-haired palestinian protestors crying out like a hivemind.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Warning - Disturbing Content  

Families of five Israeli women kidnapped on October 7 have released a video showing their Palestinian captors interviewing them.

October 7 Army Base

22 Unarmed Women Beaten, Killed or Kidnapped

https://youtu.be/xjXNPlBZ3sM

15 women in the bunker were shot dead and are lying on the ground.

One woman was later rescued. One was found dead.

Five of the women, all 19 years of age, are still held captive in Gaza, 229 days later.

Even though the video was edited, they are saying the women are beautiful, of breeding age, and can fall pregnant.

A couple of the woman have clearly copped a hiding.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Or how people care more about the 200 people being held hostage compared to the 50.000 innocent civilians - half of them children - being killed, including millions being displaced, many being held in prison for bogus reasons and the treatment of people in Gaza & Palestinian territories that is worse than how America treated black people in the 18th and 19th century (or South Africa in the 20th century).

Israel had a number of opportunities for a diplomatic way out and release of the hostages and they chose to use the hostage crisis to wage a propaganda war in order to justify their attempt of genocide. Netanyahu & his government don't care about the hostages, that has to be proven over & over again.

Even right-wing internet fora in Belgium are more nuanced generally about the conflict than here. This forum decides to behave more like Twitter (well half of the users, not all. Some have seen the light or at the very least acknowledge the war crimes, but my point stands).

More & more nations (& users/people) that initially were very supportive of Israël have noticed that this isn't the "defensive war" they claim they are in. Israël is becoming a pariah state. Stop defending a regime that clearly is committing war crimes to an extent not seen before by "a western nation" since the 1940s. Those international organizations, users, people, activists, students, countries like Norway & Ireland aren't antisemitist or supportive of terrorism like some right-wingers within Florida legislature are claiming they are.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Or how people care .....

Are you still as keen on Hamas' murderous rape-athon as you were on October 7 brah?

......fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support......

Or did you delete that post 4 months later when you realised what they had actually done to the Israeli's?

[Lief 🗽]

Hilarious that “right-wing Belgian forums” are the standard of objectivity by which he judges us too. Sorry that this forum is more pro-Israel than some neo-Nazi message board??

[Agafin]

I think Israel has stopped giving a f-k about the International Community other than the ones who already back them (chief of which the US, of course). Probably a wise move at this point.

[Open Source Intelligence]

I think Israel has stopped giving a f-k about the International Community other than the ones who already back them (chief of which the US, of course). Probably a wise move at this point.

And what happens when we get to the next generation of Democratic Party leadership that will inevitably become President after election 2028 or 2032 or 2036 which is considerably less pro-Israeli? Obama which reflects the next generation was hardly gung-ho Israel. Biden, Schumer et al are done in leadership before this decade ends due to aging out, and diehard hawks the likes of Gottheimer are never winning an open presidential primary. That's the problem with putting all your eggs in one basket.