Israel-Gaza war

[President Johnson]

Biden announces US airdrops of humanitarian assistance into Gaza

The United States will begin air dropping food aid to the people of Gaza, President Joe Biden announced Friday, as the humanitarian crisis deepens and Israel continues to resist opening additional land crossings to allow more assistance into the war-torn strip.

Speaking in the Oval Office, Biden said the US would be “pulling out every stop” to get additional aid into Gaza, which has been under heavy bombardment by Israel since the October 7 Hamas terror attacks.

Biden said aid was not flowing into Gaza quickly enough, and said he was working to broker an immediate ceasefire deal that would allow additional aid in.

The airdrops will provide some relief to those on the ground. However, their use is not a sustainable solution for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, as the method can only bring in a fraction of the amount of aid that could be transported into the enclave by trucks.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/01/politics/biden-airdrops-assistance-gaza/index.html

I'd imagine the Israelis would want to inspect. They seem to be somewhat arbitrary on what they're allowing in:

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/01/middleeast/gaza-aid-israel-restrictions-investigation-intl-cmd/index.html

Why wouldn't they trust the US with that?

[emailking]

Personally, I don't think they should get a say in what we airdrop into Gaza. But I guess they have some leverage there while we're still trying to negotiate a cease fire.

[GP270watch]

 Smart move by Biden to start dropping food aid, also proves the point beyond a doubt that IDF is blocking humanitarian food aid.

[GeneralMacArthur]

When the Tsar's soldiers opened fire on an unarmed crowd of protesters on Bloody Sunday 1905 even the most ardent monarchists didn't have the gall to say "actually some portion of the protesters were trampled to death and didn't die directly from gunfire, therefore the Russian Army bears no responsibility".

This is not an accurate comparison.  As far as I can tell there is no evidence that a single person died from Israeli gunshots.  I'm sure some people did die, but there is no evidence that it was a large number of people.  Based on the current information we have available it seems far more likely that IDF fire was responsible for only a few deaths, rather than all or a majority of the 100+ deaths.

Taken in isolation, a large crowd of people swarming an Israeli position and failing to heed warnings to disperse, followed by a few deaths from gunfire as Israel had to frighten them off, would not be a particularly noteworthy incident.

The reason it is noteworthy in this case, is because it happened at the same time as the stampede at the aid trucks, which resulted in a lot more deaths, allowing people to conflate the two and say things like "Israel opened fire on Palestinians, and 100 people died" which makes it sound like Israel shot and killed 100 people.

[Comrade Funk]

Biden's response to this all since October has been an unmitigated disaster. His confident proclamation this week that a truce was coming ended up as a nothingness and he's still unwilling to act like the leader of tge superpower he is. He's protecting Netanyahu while killing his reelection chances

[GeneralMacArthur]

So here's what happened: Hamas has (according to Israel) been eliminated in the northern Gaza Strip, including Gaza City, meaning that one would imagine that Israel would be able to distribute abundant food in this region with relatively little safety risk. Despite this, Palestinians in Gaza City were so incredibly hungry, presumably due to a lack of food, that they stampeded food aid being distributed there.

I agree that Israel is being too slow on supplying the Gazan civilians with humanitarian aid, and I'm glad Biden is now going to be airdropping supplies.

Israel has not been blockading all supplies.  If this was true, everyone in Gaza would have been dead months ago, since it's a small impoverished region with few natural resources and no other source of supplies other than Israel.  Gaza is getting supplies, there just aren't enough.  Of course nobody thinks to blame Egypt for building a giant wall at the southern border and refusing to help a single Palestinian.

The protests at the border crossings that have been delaying (but not preventing) aid are not organized by Israel.  They are mostly organized by the families of the hostages.  In fact Israel has been engaged in a regular back-and-forth with the protesters to get them to go away.  For instance, they recently declared one of the crossings (there are several, and protesters are only blocking one at a time) a secure military region and set up IDF guards to prevent anyone from getting in to block the roads.  People are dishonestly conflating the actions of the protesters with official state policy of Israel when in fact the opposite is true.  Of course some far-right Israeli politicians have supported the protests... although when people say "far-right Israeli politicians" they're almost always just talking about Itamar Ben-Gvir.

I think it's good for Israel to supply humanitarian aid to civilians and that they should supply more, but at the same time I do think it's a bit rich for people to demand that Israel supply more aid and label it a genocide when Israel doesn't supply enough.  Israel is at war with Gaza!  A war Gaza started!  This is hardly some established responsibility of a party in wartime -- to go above and beyond providing for the security and welfare of the civilians of your enemy state.  The only reason we find ourselves in this unique situation is because everyone is fully convinced that Hamas and the Palestinians are totally separate entities on opposite sides, and the Palestinians are the responsibility of Israel, rather than Hamas.  This in particular is where I disagree with Vosem.  I don't think starving the Palestinians would have any military benefits, because Hamas would genuinely prefer if all their people starve to death.  Far from driving Hamas to surrender, it would only be helping Hamas.

IDF soldiers felt threatened by this, and their response was to open fire on the crowd

as far as I can tell, there is no evidence that IDF soldiers opened fire on "the crowd."  The satellite footage shows an enormous gathering of people over a very wide area swarming around dozens of trucks.  There are no IDF positions represented in any of the footage and Israel claims it was only when one group swarmed an Israeli position that they began firing.  It seems to me like this was a separate incident and Israel did not fire at any of the people surrounding the trucks.

And I'm supposed to care if the live fire or stampede caused the lion's share of the deaths?

I mean, yes.  I care.  I think Israeli soldiers intentionally and maliciously firing into a large gathering of people to try and kill as many vulnerable civilians as possible is much worse than insufficient Israeli aid causing people to stampede an aid caravan, resulting in trampling deaths.  Like one of those is clearly much more evil than the other.  And the pro-Palestine crowd knows this, which is why they keep trying to make it sound like the former is what happened, rather than admitting it was far more likely the latter, and why they keep calling it the "Flour Massacre" and comparing it to Bloody Sunday or the Boston Massacre, rather than, say, calling it the "Flour Stampede" and comparing it to Qasim Soleimani's funeral (another recent example where hundreds of people were crushed).

[GP270watch]

Biden's response to this all since October has been an unmitigated disaster. His confident proclamation this week that a truce was coming ended up as a nothingness and he's still unwilling to act like the leader of tge superpower he is. He's protecting Netanyahu while killing his reelection chances

 Netanyahu definitely wants Trump back in office.

[The Economy is Getting Worse]

Biden's response to this all since October has been an unmitigated disaster. His confident proclamation this week that a truce was coming ended up as a nothingness and he's still unwilling to act like the leader of tge superpower he is. He's protecting Netanyahu while killing his reelection chances

His proclamation wasn’t confident, he just said he hoped for one, while licking an ice cream and confused.

[Pres Mike]

1. Of course nobody thinks to blame Egypt for building a giant wall at the southern border and refusing to help a single Palestinian.


2. I do think it's a bit rich for people to demand that Israel supply more aid and label it a genocide when Israel doesn't supply enough.  Israel is at war with Gaza!  A war Gaza started!  This is hardly some established responsibility of a party in wartime -- to go above and beyond providing for the security and welfare of the civilians of your enemy state.  The only reason we find ourselves in this unique situation is because everyone is fully convinced that Hamas and the Palestinians are totally separate entities on opposite sides, and the Palestinians are the responsibility of Israel, .

1. If the Egyptians let the Palestinians flee Gaza, Israel would never allow them to return. It would be Nakba 2.0. Just about every world leader acknowledges this would probably happen, because you have members of Israel's government saying this! There was even a plan drawn up to do just this!

And even if they went to Gaza, where would they sleep? Eat? The Sinai is a desert! Contray to popular belief Gaza isn't a desert, I posted a climate map of the region several hundred pages ago.

2. Because the Palestinians and Hamas are separate entities? Hamas is a terrorist group that seized control of the Gaza Strip in 2007 from the internationally reconized Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian people aren't at war with Israel. And yes, you are responible for the secuirty and welfare of civilans from your enemy state once you capture them (never mind I don't consider Hamas to be a state even if they serve some state functions in their 17 years in power). Same with military prisoners. Thats how civilizaed nations act. Thats how democracies act.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Of course nobody thinks to blame Egypt for building a giant wall at the southern border and refusing to help a single Palestinian.

If the Egyptians let the Palestinians flee Gaza, Israel would never allow them to return. It would be Nakba 2.0. Just about every world leader acknowledges this would probably happen, because you have members of Israel's government saying this! There was even a plan drawn up to do just this!

And even if they went to Gaza, where would they sleep? Eat? The Sinai is a desert! Contray to popular belief Gaza isn't a desert, I posted a climate map of the region several hundred pages ago.

So Egypt (and all its partners who allow it to maintain this policy) is keeping millions of people in an active war zone on the brink of starvation because they believe that if they accept Palestinian refugees, Israel won't let them back into Gaza?  That's the answer?  Israel already conquered north Gaza and forced all the Palestinians to the south.  What's stopping Israel from just annexing north Gaza today and not allowing any Palestinians up there?  And do we really think Israel's allies would stand for an exodus and annexation strategy?  Even if Donald Trump becomes POTUS again that feels like it would be crossing the line for most of America, to say nothing of India, France, Germany, the UK, etc. it is just not worth it for Israel.

This seems like a made-up reason that's just an attempt to direct the blame on Israel for regional powers' failure to get involved in any way to provide humanitarian assistance to the Palestinians.  Egypt, Qatar, Turkey, Jordan, etc. pay a lot of lip service to how awful Israel is treating the Palestinians, and how Israel needs to do more, and then don't do anything themselves.

I do not seriously believe that Egypt's big wall to prevent Palestinians from fleeing was built to save the Palestinians from an Israeli ethnic cleansing.  I think it was built because for all the lip service Egypt pays to the welfare of Gaza, in truth Egypt places far more weight on the risk of importing Hamas soldiers, and they're not interested in taking that risk just to help the Gazans.  If there's one thing Americans have learned over the last four years it's that it's really easy and fun and rewarding to do absolutely nothing, and then criticize the person who tries, badly, to do something.

I do think it's a bit rich for people to demand that Israel supply more aid and label it a genocide when Israel doesn't supply enough.  Israel is at war with Gaza!  A war Gaza started!  This is hardly some established responsibility of a party in wartime -- to go above and beyond providing for the security and welfare of the civilians of your enemy state.  The only reason we find ourselves in this unique situation is because everyone is fully convinced that Hamas and the Palestinians are totally separate entities on opposite sides, and the Palestinians are the responsibility of Israel, .

Because the Palestinians and Hamas are separate entities? Hamas is a terrorist group that seized control of the Gaza Strip in 2007 from the internationally reconized Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian people aren't at war with Israel. And yes, you are responible for the secuirty and welfare of civilans from your enemy state once you capture them (never mind I don't consider Hamas to be a state even if they serve some state functions in their 17 years in power). Same with military prisoners. Thats how civilizaed nations act. Thats how democracies act.

Yes and that's how Israel is acting, which is why they're allowing aid in, protecting that aid, and in many cases helping with the distribution of aid.  Since Israel is after all a civilized nation and a democracy.

Also, I wish we could start calling this war the "Israeli liberation of Gaza" if we're truly asked to believe that Hamas seized control of Gaza in 2007 against the will of the Gazans and has been holding them hostage with little-to-no support ever since, but enough power to prevent literally any uprising whatsoever.

I think the most generous I could be would be to compare this to the allied liberation of Italy.  There we had a fascist party that was undeniably popular once, but had since lost support from the population.  Mussolini was deposed by King Victor Emmanuel III in 1943, and most of Italy subsequently fought on the allied side against Mussolini's rump state, which was primarily defended by Nazis.  Why don't we see anything like that in Gaza?  Why don't we see Palestinians volunteering to fight for their own liberation side-by-side with the IDF?  Why aren't they going around and showing Israel where Hamas hid all their tunnels and weapons caches and data centers?  Personally I think the answer is that they like Hamas and want them to win.

[GALeftist]

I think it's good for Israel to supply humanitarian aid to civilians and that they should supply more, but at the same time I do think it's a bit rich for people to demand that Israel supply more aid and label it a genocide when Israel doesn't supply enough.  Israel is at war with Gaza!  A war Gaza started!  This is hardly some established responsibility of a party in wartime -- to go above and beyond providing for the security and welfare of the civilians of your enemy state.

I don’t really want to reply to this whole post, but I think this part specifically is interesting because it demonstrates a weird bit of sleight of hand that Israel supporters (and detractors, to be fair) often employ that is rarely made explicit: depending on whether it’s advantageous or not, Hamas and the PA alike are described as either states (or so close to states as to make the distinction irrelevant) or fundamentally non-entities beyond their capacity for uncontrolled violence. The truth is that it is not unique to demand that Israel provide for the security and welfare of the citizens of the state in Gaza, because there *is* no state in Gaza other than the Israeli one, nor has there been since the Egyptians left. Of course, anytime a territory is militarily occupied the occupant is responsible for providing for the occupied territory’s safety and security, making this point moot in the case of Gaza City; even if there were a Gazan state Israel would still be obligated to make sure there is enough food for civilians in occupied territory. But in this case, you don’t even need to go that far. Israel has been occupying the entire Gaza Strip for decades according to international law, and Gazans cannot receive food or any other essentials except through Israel, so of course Israel is responsible for their being fed during wartime just as it is during peacetime.

[Pres Mike]

Of course nobody thinks to blame Egypt for building a giant wall at the southern border and refusing to help a single Palestinian.

If the Egyptians let the Palestinians flee Gaza, Israel would never allow them to return. It would be Nakba 2.0. Just about every world leader acknowledges this would probably happen, because you have members of Israel's government saying this! There was even a plan drawn up to do just this!

And even if they went to Gaza, where would they sleep? Eat? The Sinai is a desert! Contray to popular belief Gaza isn't a desert, I posted a climate map of the region several hundred pages ago.

1. So Egypt (and all its partners who allow it to maintain this policy) is keeping millions of people in an active war zone on the brink of starvation because they believe that if they accept Palestinian refugees, Israel won't let them back into Gaza?  That's the answer?  Israel already conquered north Gaza and forced all the Palestinians to the south.  What's stopping Israel from just annexing north Gaza today and not allowing any Palestinians up there?  And do we really think Israel's allies would stand for an exodus and annexation strategy?  Even if Donald Trump becomes POTUS again that feels like it would be crossing the line for most of America, to say nothing of India, France, Germany, the UK, etc. it is just not worth it for Israel.

This seems like a made-up reason that's just an attempt to direct the blame on Israel for regional powers' failure to get involved in any way to provide humanitarian assistance to the Palestinians.  Egypt, Qatar, Turkey, Jordan, etc. pay a lot of lip service to how awful Israel is treating the Palestinians, and how Israel needs to do more, and then don't do anything themselves.

[/quote]

Yes and that's how Israel is acting, which is why they're allowing aid in, protecting that aid, and in many cases helping with the distribution of aid.  Since Israel is after all a civilized nation and a democracy.

Also, I wish we could start calling this war the "Israeli liberation of Gaza" if we're truly asked to believe that Hamas seized control of Gaza in 2007 against the will of the Gazans and has been holding them hostage with little-to-no support ever since, but enough power to prevent literally any uprising whatsoever.

[/quote]
1. Except that was the plan.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576

Annexing north Gaza was the first step, followed by the southern half. An actual plan drawn up by the Israeli Intelligence Ministry dated Oct 13.

Of course the international community immediatly came out aganist it and Egypt firmly shut their borders. I have no doubt that Egypt has several other reasons, like not wanting Hamas or having to feed millions in tent cities. But I have no doubt in my mind that if Egypt allowed refugees, this would have been seriously considered and probably happen. Netanyahu's governing coalition is outright calling for this

2. Except Israel only allowed aid after immense presure from President Biden. Once again, you had members of Netanyahu's ruling coalition calling for no aid. And in the months that followed, have only allowed limited aid. No where near enough. Israel hasn't been extremely coropotred with this

Hamas has had support from both Iran and Netanyahu. Netanyahu is on record for saying he wants to prop up Hamas because they are an important foil. Something to run against in Israeli elections and argue against a Palestinian state

[GoTfan]

I think trying to enforce the starvation and mass eviction of millions of people is an evil stance, but that's just me.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I think it's good for Israel to supply humanitarian aid to civilians and that they should supply more, but at the same time I do think it's a bit rich for people to demand that Israel supply more aid and label it a genocide when Israel doesn't supply enough.  Israel is at war with Gaza!  A war Gaza started!  This is hardly some established responsibility of a party in wartime -- to go above and beyond providing for the security and welfare of the civilians of your enemy state.

I don’t really want to reply to this whole post, but I think this part specifically is interesting because it demonstrates a weird bit of sleight of hand that Israel supporters (and detractors, to be fair) often employ that is rarely made explicit: depending on whether it’s advantageous or not, Hamas and the PA alike are described as either states (or so close to states as to make the distinction irrelevant) or fundamentally non-entities beyond their capacity for uncontrolled violence. The truth is that it is not unique to demand that Israel provide for the security and welfare of the citizens of the state in Gaza, because there *is* no state in Gaza other than the Israeli one, nor has there been since the Egyptians left. Of course, anytime a territory is militarily occupied the occupant is responsible for providing for the occupied territory’s safety and security, making this point moot in the case of Gaza City; even if there were a Gazan state Israel would still be obligated to make sure there is enough food for civilians in occupied territory. But in this case, you don’t even need to go that far. Israel has been occupying the entire Gaza Strip for decades according to international law, and Gazans cannot receive food or any other essentials except through Israel, so of course Israel is responsible for their being fed during wartime just as it is during peacetime.

To use the Italy analogy, I view Hamas as the leader of a state similar to how Mussolini's Partito Nazionale Fascista was the leader of Italy.  It may be the case that most of the people in that state do not want Hamas/Mussolini as their leader, but short of a revolution or coup, the fact remains that Hamas/Mussolini are the leaders of the state, and have the complete capacity to utilize the full resources of that state in service of their military efforts.

What this means in practice is that you can't separate the state from the party in your war effort.  Hamas is capable of utilizing the entirety of the Gaza Strip's resources in service of their war on Israel, therefore Israel must treat the entirety of the Gaza Strip as enemy territory, even if some of the people there don't support the ruling party.

Once you've fully eliminated the enemy from a certain area of territory, then you can treat it as liberated territory so long as the civilian population is compliant.  Of course this was much easier for the allies than for Israel, because the liberated Italians immediately joined the allies in the fighting against Mussolini, while the Palestinians are at best begrudging or at worst openly hostile towards Israeli soldiers.  Also Mussolini never used soldiers disguised as civilians with suicide vests, or other techniques that are considered heinous war crimes today precisely because they make it impossible to distinguish between civilians and enemy combatants.

I think the Gazans would be doing themselves a huge favor if they joined with the IDF and fought for their own freedom from Hamas instead of being helpless and disinterested and only serving as human shields for Hamas.  Or at least formed partisan anti-Hamas groups to fight for their own interests distinct from Israel.  Pretty much every major civil conflict or liberation in the last century has featured some such element, so long as the populace does in fact desire to be liberated from their oppressors.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

When the Tsar's soldiers opened fire on an unarmed crowd of protesters on Bloody Sunday 1905 even the most ardent monarchists didn't have the gall to say "actually some portion of the protesters were trampled to death and didn't die directly from gunfire, therefore the Russian Army bears no responsibility".

This is not an accurate comparison.  As far as I can tell there is no evidence that a single person died from Israeli gunshots.  I'm sure some people did die, but there is no evidence that it was a large number of people.  Based on the current information we have available it seems far more likely that IDF fire was responsible for only a few deaths, rather than all or a majority of the 100+ deaths.

https://twitter.com/AP/status/1763600123194380711

Guess they must have guns for feet over in Gaza to produce all those gunshot wounds from "trampling"

I swear the IDF could say that shapeshifting aliens appeared and committed all the crimes they've been accused of and you'd just take them at their word for it

[GeneralMacArthur]

Gaza doctor says gunfire accounted for 80% of the wounds at his hospital from aid convoy bloodshed

Guess they must have guns for feet over in Gaza to produce all those gunshot wounds from "trampling"

I swear the IDF could say that shapeshifting aliens appeared and committed all the crimes they've been accused of and you'd just take them at their word for it

See the thing is I just do not trust the word of these Gaza doctors who speak to the media.  They have lied repeatedly in the past.  This claim doesn't even seem that outlandish to me, since he is specifically talking about "wounds", and we know Israel says they shot at the legs/feet of people swarming around the IDF position.  But I don't take his word as any evidence one way or another.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Gaza doctor says gunfire accounted for 80% of the wounds at his hospital from aid convoy bloodshed

Guess they must have guns for feet over in Gaza to produce all those gunshot wounds from "trampling"

I swear the IDF could say that shapeshifting aliens appeared and committed all the crimes they've been accused of and you'd just take them at their word for it

See the thing is I just do not trust the word of these Gaza doctors who speak to the media.  They have lied repeatedly in the past.  This claim doesn't even seem that outlandish to me, since he is specifically talking about "wounds", and we know Israel says they shot at the legs/feet of people swarming around the IDF position.  But I don't take his word as any evidence one way or another.

https://twitter.com/NadiaJa11363107/status/1763758700819337323

also it's kind of incredible that you still consider the IDF's word to be more reliable than that of the doctors on the ground

[GeneralMacArthur]

That article is confusing with its language.  It describes a large number of gunshot wounds among "dozens" of Palestinians being treated.  But then a few paragraphs later it says Al-Shifa admitted 700 injured people and 70 dead.  Which is it?

At the end of the article it says "Israel said the casualties were in the dozens."  So if "dozens" of people were killed or injured by Israel, I mean let's say that's 50-100 casualties from Israeli gunfire.  And then the other 600-700 aren't?

If the UN goes in and says that there are hundreds of people with gunshot wounds, or that the vast majority of the 770 casualties that arrived at the hospital were shot by Israel, then I would take that as evidence that Israel did conduct a large scale assault on a vulnerable civilian population, which is horrible and a war crime and something I would condemn (and also would call for direct western intervention to protect civilians and handle aid distribution).

However, this article is not clear evidence of that.  In fact based on the language used it appears to be evidence to the contrary.  The issue is that "dozens" is vague -- it could mean 700 people.  But nobody would ever say "dozens" to refer to hundreds upon hundreds of people.  This isn't semantic gamesmanship -- the difference between 50 and 500 casualties is enormous, and furthermore one of those numbers aligns with the IDF story and the other does not.

also it's kind of incredible that you still consider the IDF's word to be more reliable than that of the doctors on the ground

I don't in particular, but the IDF didn't just offer their word they also offered satellite footage.

In a conflict like this with photos and videos constantly coming out I also consider a lack of evidence, of some event that really ought to have evidence, to be evidence in and of itself.  Israel shot 800 people but there's no footage of it in a crowd of thousands of people who had their cell phones out?  People say they were walking among dead bodies riddled with bullet holes the next day but there's not a single photo or video of this?  I feel like if this was true there would have been tons of pictures and videos.  Palestinians aren't exactly timid about documenting alleged Israeli war crimes.  Most of the IDF's biggest claims in this war have been backed up by unambiguous evidence.  Their claim that there was a stampede on the aid trucks was backed up by satellite footage.  Their claim that there was a tunnel under Al-Shifa hospital was backed up by camera footage running the entire length of the tunnel.  Their claim that they didn't drop a bomb on Al-Ahli Arab hospital was backed up by photos of the parking lot and the undamaged hospital.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

That article is confusing with its language.  It describes a large number of gunshot wounds among "dozens" of Palestinians being treated.  But then a few paragraphs later it says Al-Shifa admitted 700 injured people and 70 dead.  Which is it?

At the end of the article it says "Israel said the casualties were in the dozens."  So if "dozens" of people were killed or injured by Israel, I mean let's say that's 50-100 casualties from Israeli gunfire.  And then the other 600-700 aren't?

So those goalposts must be on rockets because we've gone from

As far as I can tell there is no evidence that a single person died from Israeli gunshots.

to "Well, we don't have definitive proof that the overwhelming majority of the deaths came from Israeli bullets instead of trampling"

If we were talking about Russians gunning down starving Ukrainians nobody would be engaged in this idiotic quibbling over whether it's really a massacre because perhaps some of the people were trampled and not shot

I don't in particular, but the IDF didn't just offer their word they also offered satellite footage.

In a conflict like this with photos and videos constantly coming out I also consider a lack of evidence, of some event that really ought to have evidence, to be evidence in and of itself.  Israel shot 800 people but there's no footage of it in a crowd of thousands of people who had their cell phones out?  People say they were walking among dead bodies riddled with bullet holes the next day but there's not a single photo or video of this?  I feel like if this was true there would have been tons of pictures and videos.  Palestinians aren't exactly timid about documenting alleged Israeli war crimes.  Most of the IDF's biggest claims in this war have been backed up by unambiguous evidence.  Their claim that there was a stampede on the aid trucks was backed up by satellite footage.  Their claim that there was a tunnel under Al-Shifa hospital was backed up by camera footage running the entire length of the tunnel.  Their claim that they didn't drop a bomb on Al-Ahli Arab hospital was backed up by photos of the parking lot and the undamaged hospital.

The Israelis provide "evidence" and you don't question it for a second but if a Gazan doctor makes a claim and it's backed up by the UN and literally every other independent source you consider them inherently untrustworthy. Do you think Palestinians are inherently less trustworthy than Israelis, even when the UN on the ground backs up their claims?

Case in point, the "satellite footage" is edited and does nothing to prove their claims which are contradictory with literally all of the other evidence and testimony. That a stampede occurred after the Israelis began murdering starving civilians with gunfire is hardly surprising but it hardly absolves them of blame. 

People say they were walking among dead bodies riddled with bullet holes the next day but there's not a single photo or video of this?

the BBC says otherwise:

We have verified further footage filmed where the shooting occurred, of bodies being taken away on a cart north in the direction of Nabulsi roundabout.
There have been reports of casualties being taken to several hospitals.
Dr Mohamed Salha, interim hospital manager at al-Awda hospital, where many of the dead and injured were taken, told the BBC: "Al-Awda hospital received around 176 injured people...142 of these cases are bullet injuries and the rest are from the stampede and broken limbs in the upper and lower body parts."

Incredibly, the Palestinians didn't just leave their dead and wounded to be eaten by stray dogs but took them to the hospital where the overwhelming majority were treated for bullet wounds. But I guess we can't believe that because the hospital manager who said it is one of those shifty untrustworthy Palestinians so we just have to believe the IDF because they provided an edited overhead video that proves nothing in particular.

[GeneralMacArthur]

That article is confusing with its language.  It describes a large number of gunshot wounds among "dozens" of Palestinians being treated.  But then a few paragraphs later it says Al-Shifa admitted 700 injured people and 70 dead.  Which is it?

At the end of the article it says "Israel said the casualties were in the dozens."  So if "dozens" of people were killed or injured by Israel, I mean let's say that's 50-100 casualties from Israeli gunfire.  And then the other 600-700 aren't?

So those goalposts must be on rockets because we've gone from

As far as I can tell there is no evidence that a single person died from Israeli gunshots.

to "Well, we don't have definitive proof that the overwhelming majority of the deaths came from Israeli bullets instead of trampling"

No, the goalposts haven't moved at all.  There is still no evidence that even a single person died from Israeli gunshots.  The UN said many of the wounded had gunshot wounds.  Wounded people are not dead.

Note that I am not even claiming, as you pretend, that Israeli gunfire didn't kill anyone.  I'm sure it did.  But we do not have any evidence of this.  I am believing that Israel shot and killed some people in spite of the lack of available evidence, because I do believe that Israeli shot people, and it seems highly unlikely that they would have shot a bunch of people and not killed anyone.

The satellite footage shows a stampede.  That is all it shows.  But it provides evidence that a stampede did occur.  Israel is not denying this.  You can condemn the conditions that led to the stampede all you like but that is dramatically different from the claim that Israel opened fire on the crowd and massacred hundreds of people.  There is no evidence that Israel opening fire on the crowd occurred.  Israel claims they only fired shots in a small area away from the convoy.  There is also no evidence that this even happened beyond the IDF's word!  The only evidence we have of guns being fired at all is the cellphone videos where you can hear gunshots from an unknown source, and the doctors seeing people wounded with gunfire later.  There is no video footage of Israel shooting anyone.

We are just dealing with a frustrating lack of evidence here which leaves open the possibility of a wide variety of occurrences.  I mean, it's still technically within the realm of possibility that the IDF is lying, they didn't shoot anyone at all, and all the people who died were killed by Palestinian guards on the convoy.  I don't think there's even a 1% chance that's what happened, but the tiny amount of evidence we have does not rule it out, because we have no footage of Israel shooting anyone.

All sorts of things are possible.  Short of proof that one thing did happen and everything else did not, you have to make up your mind based on logic and what we do have, what you believe happened.  I explained in my earlier post why, based on the information we have, I don't think Israel opened fire into the crowd around the convoys and killed hundreds of people, which is how Hamas-aligned media is describing this.  If you want to decide to believe differently, that's fine, but you do not have any evidence for this.  It is supposition based on your priors.  The various pieces of evidence we have -- the cell-phone videos, the satellite footage, UN/doctor testimony -- do not give any proof that such an event occurred.  And when you are making an extraordinary claim -- that Israeli troops opened fire on a crowd of innocent people, massacred nearly 1000 victims, covered it up afterwards with full confidence that no evidence would be produced showing them to be liars, and then miraculously there was no video footage of this massacre -- you need to have a high standard of evidence.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Here is a case in point.  Let's look at the matter of the tunnel under al-Shifa hospital.  Back in November, I grew steadily more and more skeptical that such a tunnel existed, as Israel failed to produce any evidence of it for many days despite having control of the hospital, and instead put out some laughable videos of a few guns and diapers they found in the basement of the hospital.

I wrote the following post where I did not rule out the possibility of such a tunnel existing -- after all we did not have proof that the tunnel didn't exist -- but said I found it increasingly unlikely based on what little facts we were being given.  And I said a lot of mean things about Israel if no such tunnel existed.

If it does indeed turn out there was no complex under the hospital at all and Israel was just making it up then this will be their Iraq WMD moment.  Either a colossal failure of intelligence or outright lying.

What they have said so far makes little sense.  A massive underground tunnel network is not something you can just cover up, and should not be difficult to find even if Hamas militants had weeks to hide it.

The IDF also made these claims about other hospitals that they now control but have demonstrated zero evidence that they were used as operational bases, much less secret tunnel entrances.  The videos of "evidence" that they've released come off as juvenile and staged.  A single unopened case of diapers sitting in the hallway as evidence of babies being held as hostages, really?  Of course it doesn't help that the IDF and Israeli Twitter accounts have often been tweeting out wild claims, misleading statements and the occasional fabrication.

Now there's still plenty of reason to think they will end up finding the promised secret tunnel complex.  Other Western nations have made the same claims, hopefully based on more than just repetition of Israeli intelligence.  Independent actors have made the same claims.  We know without any ambiguity that the tunnel network exists, based on Hamas themselves providing video footage of it.  We also know that Hamas fighters just spent several days fighting a pitched battle to defend this hospital, just as Israeli fighters spent several days battling to take it, which doesn't make any sense if either side knows there's not actually anything to find there.  It also seems rather stupid and pointless for Israel to lie about such a specific thing.

The one thing I can think of that would make it all somewhat add up is that Hamas used the hospital as a fortress but not as the entrance to an underground command center, and Israel exaggerated so they could justify besieging the fighters holed up inside.  That doesn't really square with the past behavior of either party though.

At any rate, if there is a tunnel complex under the hospital, they need to prove it to the world quickly.  Otherwise it will be a massive blow to their credibility that will rightfully engender allied skepticism of any future operations.

Meanwhile, here is what you said at the same time.  Instead of engaging with what we were being given rationally, you let your anti-Israel bias guide you to surefire confidence that there was no tunnel, and jumped straight to degradation of Israel based on this confidence.

That the IDF has been making decisions based on "common knowledge" is exactly how they identified Al-Shifa as a "Hamas command center" in the first place. That's the whole problem: they pretend they have some mindblowing sci-fi ground penetrating radar that gives them the scoop on where Hamas is at all times and then it turns out that they stormed a literal hospital and caused the death of dozens if not hundreds of patients on the basis of "common knowledge" acquired by decade old rumours.

Now as we all know, as it turned out, there was a tunnel under al-Shifa hospital.  Israel provided proof of this by digging up the tunnel, blowing open the entrance with explosives, providing video footage spanning the entire length of the tunnel, and allowing journalists to enter the tunnel and verify its authenticity.

Now similarly, it's entirely possible that Israel did open fire into the crowd and massacre hundreds of people.  I am not ruling it out.  But we have not seen any footage of it so far.  Just like with the al-Shifa tunnel, at the current time I am inclined to believe that we will never see any such evidence, because I find it very unlikely that this actually happened and far more likely that Hamas news sources are lying or exaggerating.  But if evidence comes out proving that the story is true, I will change my position and beliefs accordingly.

[GoTfan]

"Wounded people are not dead"

They still got f***ing shot by trigger-happy soldiers. Let's not either dismiss the possibility that some of these people have died of their wounds since.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Here is a case in point.  Let's look at the matter of the tunnel under al-Shifa hospital.  Back in November, I grew steadily more and more skeptical that such a tunnel existed, as Israel failed to produce any evidence of it for many days despite having control of the hospital, and instead put out some laughable videos of a few guns and diapers they found in the basement of the hospital.

I wrote the following post where I did not rule out the possibility of such a tunnel existing -- after all we did not have proof that the tunnel didn't exist -- but said I found it increasingly unlikely based on what little facts we were being given.  And I said a lot of mean things about Israel if no such tunnel existed.

If it does indeed turn out there was no complex under the hospital at all and Israel was just making it up then this will be their Iraq WMD moment.  Either a colossal failure of intelligence or outright lying.

What they have said so far makes little sense.  A massive underground tunnel network is not something you can just cover up, and should not be difficult to find even if Hamas militants had weeks to hide it.

The IDF also made these claims about other hospitals that they now control but have demonstrated zero evidence that they were used as operational bases, much less secret tunnel entrances.  The videos of "evidence" that they've released come off as juvenile and staged.  A single unopened case of diapers sitting in the hallway as evidence of babies being held as hostages, really?  Of course it doesn't help that the IDF and Israeli Twitter accounts have often been tweeting out wild claims, misleading statements and the occasional fabrication.

Now there's still plenty of reason to think they will end up finding the promised secret tunnel complex.  Other Western nations have made the same claims, hopefully based on more than just repetition of Israeli intelligence.  Independent actors have made the same claims.  We know without any ambiguity that the tunnel network exists, based on Hamas themselves providing video footage of it.  We also know that Hamas fighters just spent several days fighting a pitched battle to defend this hospital, just as Israeli fighters spent several days battling to take it, which doesn't make any sense if either side knows there's not actually anything to find there.  It also seems rather stupid and pointless for Israel to lie about such a specific thing.

The one thing I can think of that would make it all somewhat add up is that Hamas used the hospital as a fortress but not as the entrance to an underground command center, and Israel exaggerated so they could justify besieging the fighters holed up inside.  That doesn't really square with the past behavior of either party though.

At any rate, if there is a tunnel complex under the hospital, they need to prove it to the world quickly.  Otherwise it will be a massive blow to their credibility that will rightfully engender allied skepticism of any future operations.

Meanwhile, here is what you said at the same time.  Instead of engaging with what we were being given rationally, you let your anti-Israel bias guide you to surefire confidence that there was no tunnel, and jumped straight to degradation of Israel based on this confidence.

That the IDF has been making decisions based on "common knowledge" is exactly how they identified Al-Shifa as a "Hamas command center" in the first place. That's the whole problem: they pretend they have some mindblowing sci-fi ground penetrating radar that gives them the scoop on where Hamas is at all times and then it turns out that they stormed a literal hospital and caused the death of dozens if not hundreds of patients on the basis of "common knowledge" acquired by decade old rumours.

Now as we all know, as it turned out, there was a tunnel under al-Shifa hospital.  Israel provided proof of this by digging up the tunnel, blowing open the entrance with explosives, providing video footage spanning the entire length of the tunnel, and allowing journalists to enter the tunnel and verify its authenticity.

Now similarly, it's entirely possible that Israel did open fire into the crowd and massacre hundreds of people.  I am not ruling it out.  But we have not seen any footage of it so far.  Just like with the al-Shifa tunnel, at the current time I am inclined to believe that we will never see any such evidence, because I find it very unlikely that this actually happened and far more likely that Hamas news sources are lying or exaggerating.  But if evidence comes out proving that the story is true, I will change my position and beliefs accordingly.

This is a complete and utter misrepresentation of what happened at Al-Shifa.

Israel did not say there was "a tunnel" under Al-Shifa because they could have said that about nearly every building in Gaza. What they said was that Al-Shifa was a Hamas command center (in fact IIRC they initially claimed it was literally their HQ) - you'll notice in the quote I did not say "tunnel" because that is not what we were promised - , and to support this claim they provided a completely unrealistic CG representation of an underground fortress that bore no resemblance whatsoever to the final product. Perhaps most crucially, despite initial IDF claims there were no entrances to the tunnel connected to the hospital, meaning there was zero justification to storm the buildings, drag off the hospital workers and shut down the functioning of the hospital, thereby killing dozens of babies in incubators. To say they weren't lying about Al-Shifa is like saying those absurd infographics about Osama's "underground fortress" at Tora Bora were accurate because there really were caves

Ironically, subsequent releases from the IDF of the tunnels Hamas is capable of building have proven that the ramshackle tunnels they found were certainly not any form of command center, since the actual command centers have been far more complex. Considering they had disposable attack tunnels wide enough to drive a car through it seems absurd to suggest that the tunnels near the hospital were anything near the level of significance necessary to justify the actions taken.

and this really illustrates your problem: the IDF provides the most basic, perfunctory "evidence" which either proves something that wasn't in dispute or proves far less than is claimed and you provide zero critical thought to questions like "did the IDF edit this footage? Does it really show the whole event?" and "is this comically tiny tunnel with no direct connection to the hospital actually sufficient justification for multiple dead babies"

Also, you have yet to address the core point that the IDF bears ultimate responsibility for providing humanitarian aid to the areas it claims to have secured, a responsibility it has consciously shirked to the point where children are literally starving to death as it allows protestors to block the border. This is after

* The IDF gunned down Hebrew speaking hostages waving white flags
* IDF snipers sniped civilians with zero justification, in one case directly in front of TV cameras and in another at a woman sheltering at a church
* IDF tanks killed an entire family, then killed the ambulances sent after despite having given the green light by the IDF
* Multiple leaders within the IDF declaring the intent to starve the population of Gaza to death

When you take all that context into account,

I don't think Israel opened fire into the crowd around the convoys and killed hundreds of people, which is how Hamas-aligned media is describing this.  If you want to decide to believe differently, that's fine, but you do not have any evidence for this.  It is supposition based on your priors.  The various pieces of evidence we have -- the cell-phone videos, the satellite footage, UN/doctor testimony -- do not give any proof that such an event occurred.  And when you are making an extraordinary claim -- that Israeli troops opened fire on a crowd of innocent people, massacred nearly 1000 victims, covered it up afterwards with full confidence that no evidence would be produced showing them to be liars, and then miraculously there was no video footage of this massacre -- you need to have a high standard of evidence.

looks like an absolutely ludicrous paragraph, because Israeli troops have opened fire on innocent Palestinians time and time and time again and have gotten away with it every time. They say "the incident is under investigation", nobody is prosecuted and everyone moves on while half-wits like you act like we don't already have countless examples of the IDF blatantly lying and totally getting away with it. The evidence has already shown them to be liars because IDF officials have made mutually contradictory statements. The IDF firing on crowds of innocent people isn't "extraordinary", it's just another day at the office for them. Last piece of evidence to throw on the pile:

Geneva - Initial investigations by Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor confirm that Israeli army gunfire killed and wounded dozens of starving Palestinian civilians who were attempting to receive humanitarian aid in western Gaza at dawn on Thursday. The Israeli army is striving to disassociate itself from the atrocity, Euro-Med Monitor said, by releasing a shattered aerial video clip and arguing that the large number of civilian deaths was caused by a stampede and trampling.

In a brief statement, the rights organisation said that its research teams observed the event from the very first moments and recorded that Israeli tanks opened heavy fire on groups of Palestinian civilians attempting to receive humanitarian aid west and south of Gaza City. As a result, 112 civilians were killed and 760 were injured, while many victims are believed to remain in the targeted area.

Euro-Med Monitor stated that the evidence—which is supported by video footage showing the shooting operation—demonstrates that dozens of victims suffered gunshot wounds, rather than being run over or crushed, in contrast to what the Israeli army spokesman claimed.

The rights group highlighted four pieces of evidence confirming the Israeli army’s killing and wounding of starving civilians, the first of which is the signs of injuries on the bodies of the dead and injured. These injuries were documented by a Euro-Med Monitor researcher as soon as the victims arrived at Al-Shifa Hospital, as was the blood on flour bags and aid boxes.

The second piece of evidence is the footage released by the Israeli army itself, which includes audible evidence of gunfire emanating from Israeli tanks positioned near the coast, which the army purposefully covered up in the video using black; eyewitnesses have confirmed that the tanks were present close to the crime scene.

The third piece of evidence concerns the bullets’ distinct sound signature, said Euro-Med Monitor, which is audible in the footage released at the time of the shooting and identifies them as coming from an automatic weapon used by the Israeli army with 5.56 bullets.

Finally, the rights group stated that the aerial video published by the Israeli army is intentionally fragmented and distorted. At minute 1:06, however, the video footage does indicate the existence of at least two Israeli tanks, as well as multiple bodies, in the path of the tanks rather than the aid trucks.

The Geneva-based organisation noted that during minutes 1:06–1:28 in the video, the majority of those in attendance—including individuals who had initially been far from the aid trucks—can be seen fleeing from the trucks, i.e. running in the opposite direction. This indicates that the danger did not originate from the trucks themselves or from the surrounding crowd of people, but rather from an outside source that terrified everyone in the area, both close to and far away from the trucks. Furthermore, the video clip released by the Israeli army does not depict any ramming operations, which aligns with numerous survivors’ accounts of being shot in the back as they attempted to flee the scene.

Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor emphasised that under no circumstances should the veracity and credibility of footage released by Israel’s army to absolve itself of its crimes be accepted without first granting an independent external investigative body full access to the army’s data to review all of the information. If the international community immediately accepts Israel’s altered footage as fact, it will only result in an absurd scenario in which the Israeli army simultaneously acts as perpetrator, investigator, and judge.

In fact, Euro-Med Monitor added, the army’s video clip demonstrates Israel’s culpability, even if one ignores the edits and accepts the story of a “stampede”, as it reveals the extent of this Israeli-made humanitarian disaster and the crime of starvation that caused hordes of civilians to rush towards aid trucks today. As the entry and protection of these trucks are obstructed by Israeli army forces, starving Palestinians are seen risking their lives while trying to reach the trucks, which are located close to army concentration points.

Israeli forces clearly targeted starved civilians who did not pose any threat to them, contended Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor, and whose only request was to receive a small amount of aid, despite the humiliating procedures that accompany the distribution process.

Euro-Med Monitor warned that the Israeli shooting of starving Palestinian civilians receiving aid has become a regular practice. In recent weeks, Israeli forces have directly attacked and killed dozens of people in Gaza City, including on Salah al-Din Street and in the vicinity of Kuwait Roundabout.

[afleitch]

The UN said many of the wounded had gunshot wounds.  Wounded people are not dead.
 of evidence.

Just wounded though. Shot at while trying to get aid. So all perfectly normal.

Do the IDF possess 'magic bullets' that when fired into a crowd only strike people and wound them?

[Silent Hunter]

It's entirely possible that someone in the IDF opened fire out of fear for their own lives from the crowd and the others promptly followed.