Israel-Gaza war

[Vosem]

Considering the HaKirya is literally in a residential TelAviv neighborhood next to schools, malls, highways, etc this point has never really made much sense to me. We're not even talking about the whole Gaza Strip anymore, we're talking about 1/3rd of it? Probably something like 100x more dense? Any talk of 'human shields' or any other nonsense is just pointless smoke and mirrors by the IDF to do what it does best: bye-bye civilians.

HaKirya itself is clearly a valid military target (as for that matter are those highways); schools and malls are not unless they have some military purpose, although in close urban combat pretty much every building ends up having a military purpose.

(The IDF clearly isn't that good at killing civilians, since it's dropped more bombs than Hamas's claims of the death toll, which everyone knows is absurd. The real reason for this can only be that it's deliberately avoiding killing civilians, of course, but to believe something like this you have to also believe that they're a comically ineffective military.)

Anyway, to save civilians Hamas should either permit them to evacuate, instead of executing those who try, or ideally unconditionally surrender and devote the remainder of its efforts to aiding the policies of the Israeli government.

[PSOL]

Hamas is terrible. Will Israel invade and replace or just shell and forget about it. This really sounds like Bill Clinton tactics. If something is an existential threat take them out and replace. Can't just leave regimes like Taliban/Al Qaeda, Tojo Japan, Hitler in place. If this operation is to "eliminate Hamas" why doesnt Hamas just call it a day and wait for Israeli troops to leave? Who is responsible for rooting out Hamas once Israeli troops leave if all civil institutions remain operated by Hamas.

A great question and there's no clear answer. There have been international discussions about a handoff from Israel to a peacekeeping force with representatives from other Arab countries authorized to govern only the West Bank, but I don't think there have been any clear conclusions reached. Right now the plan presumably is to reestablish Israeli occupation, but it's not clear whether the international community, or Israel's allies specifically, or the Israeli electorate, are thinking of that as something which might outlast the current state of war.

Hopefully any occupiers are driven out like they were in Lebanon. Keeping the peace for imperialism by a new occupation doesn’t work.

[Logical]

Honest question, is Israel planning to occupy and replace Hamas as the government of Gaza with something
or leave them in place after the operation?

Bold of you to assume that anyone involved in this has any plan whatsoever.

[PSOL]

Honest question, is Israel planning to occupy and replace Hamas as the government of Gaza with something
or leave them in place after the operation?

Bold of you to assume that anyone involved in this has any plan whatsoever.

I mean part of the equation at the time was moving some of the Gazans to the former homes of expelled Sinaians, Egypt was and continues to be tempted with that exchange by the Israelis for compensation.

Going back to prior historical assessments of Israel’s occupation of Palestine and Lebanon, and current actions, a mixed strategy of inviting foreign powers to act as a bufferzone between them and the Gazans as well as re-empowering Dahlan’s Fatah rats seems to be possible and plausible.

[Red Velvet]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1721592910884319732

[Meclazine for Israel]

Honest question, is Israel planning to occupy and replace Hamas as the government of Gaza with something
or leave them in place after the operation?

In answer to your question, these are the snippets I have researched which have been slowly released thus far by Israel.

1. Hamas will be destroyed in terms of their economic, military and leadership capacity.
2. A 300m perimeter inside the Gaza border will be cleared as a security barrier.
3. Israel will not occupy or govern Gaza, presumably an Arab security coalition will do that.
4. Israel will provide no water, electricity, fuel, communications or any medical assistance to the new Gazan regime.

The information on the southern border is clearly impossible to predict at this stage.

[Pericles]

It looks like Gaza is doomed to be reoccupied by Israel. I'm sure everybody including Israel would love it if there was another option. However, the PA would have no credibility or capacity as Israel's 'puppet' (which is why they refused without a political solution) and I can't see any countries-Arab or otherwise-wanting to touch the mess of Gaza so these speculated international trusteeships look unlikely.

Muir, noting Biden previously said it would be a "mistake" for Israel to occupy Gaza, asked Netanyahu who should govern the territory when the fighting ends.

The prime minister indicated he believes Israel will have a role to play for an "indefinite period." Last month, Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant suggested the final phase of the was would be to sever "Israel's responsibility for life in the Gaza Strip" and establish a "new security reality for the citizens of Israel.”

"Those who don't want to continue the way of Hamas," Netanyahu told Muir. "It certainly is not -- I think Israel will, for an indefinite period will have the overall security responsibility because we've seen what happens when we don't have it. When we don't have that security responsibility, what we have is the eruption of Hamas terror on a scale that we couldn't imagine."

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/netanyahu-abcs-muir-cease-fire-release-hostages/story?id=104661239

[GoTfan]

Honest question, is Israel planning to occupy and replace Hamas as the government of Gaza with something
or leave them in place after the operation?

In answer to your question, these are the snippets I have researched which have been slowly released thus far by Israel.

1. Hamas will be destroyed in terms of their economic, military and leadership capacity.
2. A 300m perimeter inside the Gaza border will be cleared as a security barrier.
3. Israel will not occupy or govern Gaza, presumably an Arab security coalition will do that.
4. Israel will provide no water, electricity, fuel, communications or any medical assistance to the new Gazan regime.

The information on the southern border is clearly impossible to predict at this stage.

That's exactly the sort of thing an extremist group would adore.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Honest question, is Israel planning to occupy and replace Hamas as the government of Gaza with something
or leave them in place after the operation?

In answer to your question, these are the snippets I have researched which have been slowly released thus far by Israel.

1. Hamas will be destroyed in terms of their economic, military and leadership capacity.
2. A 300m perimeter inside the Gaza border will be cleared as a security barrier.
3. Israel will not occupy or govern Gaza, presumably an Arab security coalition will do that.
4. Israel will provide no water, electricity, fuel, communications or any medical assistance to the new Gazan regime.

The information on the southern border is clearly impossible to predict at this stage.

A 300m perimeter would reduce the size of Gaza by several percent.

[Beet]

So, the outlines are becoming clearer now. Despite the Palestinians winning the war in certain corners of social media and some protests, in the actual situation on the ground the Israelis are winning.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Emilio Aloni (5 years old)

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzTMdHCturN/

Bring her home.

[Middle-aged Europe]

So, the outlines are becoming clearer now. Despite the Palestinians winning the war in certain corners of social media and some protests, in the actual situation on the ground the Israelis are winning.

Well, this is guys flying F-35s fighting guys driving, what, pick-up trucks?

Maybe it was always a foregone conclusion that Israel would clean Hamas' clocks once Hamas manages to provoke Israel into actually invading Gaza.

The only open question is what happens after Hamas is defeated and if a similar situation as in post-Saddam Iraq arises.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Gaza City is now completely surrounded (Reuters)

PBS News Hour

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzZlInVbK0I

Gaza City completely cut-off. Sec. Blinken trying to avoid a wider conflict. The UK has urged British citizens in Lebanon to leave. The IDF released videos of tunnel being used adjacent to the Indonesian Hospital.

The IDF have announced that the humanitarian corridor to the south is still open and encourage all civilians to leave. A large proportion of the population have used that option.

Another dead terrorist announced.


(IDF)

The IDF released a series of Instagram videos of rocket launch sites next to schools and mosques.

Gazan School and Mosque Rocket Sites

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzUjst5t5aC/

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzQwMmktIpI/

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzUBr7_NZwn/

Hamas are putting Hospitals, Schools and Mosques in harms way. Rocket sites are usually immediately targeted by the IDF.

Footage from the first responder to arrive at the music concert site on October 7 has also been released by the IDF.

NOVA Music Festival First Responder

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzVcA47tLXs/

The video is from Eran Massas, a hero who killed terrorists on his way to the music festival grounds.

[Meclazine for Israel]

MSNBC Interviews former Prime Minister of Israel.

Naftali Bennett

https://youtu.be/SULQVX90mFg

"We cannot tolerate Hamastan any more."

"We need to de-nazify Gaza ASAP"

"Imagine if Al Qaeda stormed into Florida and raped women and took 240 hostages including babies. Would the World ask the US for a cease fire before hostages are released?"

[CumbrianLefty]

So, the outlines are becoming clearer now. Despite the Palestinians winning the war in certain corners of social media and some protests, in the actual situation on the ground the Israelis are winning.

Was anything else ever expected?

And hopefully that means this war can at least be paused soon.

[Hnv1]

Israeli forces are 650 meters from the gates of Shifa Hospital where Hamas’ leadership is hiding underneath.

This was far quicker than I thought. Hamas’ organised resistance is slowly breaking around different perimeters and former Hamas battalions are disintegrating into small groups operating with no structure. In general the IDF was super efficient thus far losing under 40 soldiers in the ground offensive.

As I see it once Israel is standing outside Shifa the Hamas regime is basically finished. There’s a looming question of what next I still hadn’t heard a satisfactory answer for.

[EastwoodS]

So, the outlines are becoming clearer now. Despite the Palestinians winning the war in certain corners of social media and some protests, in the actual situation on the ground the Israelis are winning.

Was anything else ever expected?

And hopefully that means this war can at least be paused soon.

But what happens afterwards? You now have millions of lividly enraged Arabs and palestinians who will only become more fervent in their vision to destroy the west. In 20 years or less, they could have enough transatlantic and European settlers to make 9/11 look like a good day.

[jaichind]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-keep-security-control-in-gaza-indefinitely-after-war-netanyahu-says/

"Israel to maintain security control in Gaza ‘indefinitely’ after war, Netanyahu says"

[CumbrianLefty]

So, the outlines are becoming clearer now. Despite the Palestinians winning the war in certain corners of social media and some protests, in the actual situation on the ground the Israelis are winning.

Was anything else ever expected?

And hopefully that means this war can at least be paused soon.

But what happens afterwards? You now have millions of lividly enraged Arabs and palestinians who will only become more fervent in their vision to destroy the west. In 20 years or less, they could have enough transatlantic and European settlers to make 9/11 look like a good day.

It doesn't have to be that way with decent leadership (on all sides)

The present situation is partly because the outside world lost interest in the Middle East and let things fester - meanwhile Bibi played his "clever" game of boosting Islamists for his own short term gain.

If your intention is simply to dehumanise over a billion people, take your bile elsewhere.

[EastwoodS]

So, the outlines are becoming clearer now. Despite the Palestinians winning the war in certain corners of social media and some protests, in the actual situation on the ground the Israelis are winning.

Was anything else ever expected?

And hopefully that means this war can at least be paused soon.

But what happens afterwards? You now have millions of lividly enraged Arabs and palestinians who will only become more fervent in their vision to destroy the west. In 20 years or less, they could have enough transatlantic and European settlers to make 9/11 look like a good day.

It doesn't have to be that way with decent leadership (on all sides)

The present situation is partly because the outside world lost interest in the Middle East and let things fester - meanwhile Bibi played his "clever" game of boosting Islamists for his own short term gain.

If your intention is simply to dehumanise over a billion people, take your bile elsewhere.

Both religious extremist sides have this problem no?

[Beet]

So, the outlines are becoming clearer now. Despite the Palestinians winning the war in certain corners of social media and some protests, in the actual situation on the ground the Israelis are winning.

Was anything else ever expected?

And hopefully that means this war can at least be paused soon.

No, I suppose not, and it's likely for the best for the precise reason you stated.

It is somewhat remarkable that the world is witnessing a rather public massacre and not a single Muslim power is able or willing to help Gaza, not even Iran. A big contrast to 1967 or 1973. Despite the agony of the Muslim world, in my view the restraint of Muslim states from becoming directly involved in a conflict against Israel is wise, given the alternative.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

So, the outlines are becoming clearer now. Despite the Palestinians winning the war in certain corners of social media and some protests, in the actual situation on the ground the Israelis are winning.

The Israelis are well-equipped, basically.competent, and very motivated. I have no doubt they can win in tactical and operational terms, any war with Hamas.

And then what?

[Meclazine for Israel]

Sec. Blinken

Pure Evil

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzTxctFuJTO/

You can see why Israel are not going to stop. It's like the family in the Killing of the Sacred Deer.

[Vosem]

So, the outlines are becoming clearer now. Despite the Palestinians winning the war in certain corners of social media and some protests, in the actual situation on the ground the Israelis are winning.

Was anything else ever expected?

And hopefully that means this war can at least be paused soon.

But what happens afterwards? You now have millions of lividly enraged Arabs and palestinians who will only become more fervent in their vision to destroy the west. In 20 years or less, they could have enough transatlantic and European settlers to make 9/11 look like a good day.

I mean, the most interesting part of the war is the opposite of this, right? This is the first time Israel has fought a war where Arab countries have openly taken its side, as opposed to maintaining a sort of hostile neutrality like Lebanon in 1967 and Jordan in 1973. Saudi Arabia has basically openly been shooting down rockets and their state media are taking Israel's side. There hasn't been any discussion of state actors joining a war against Israel, and instead the threat comes from various militias -- Hamas is closer to being a state actor than Hezbollah is, and the Houthis are just very far away.

I think there are various contradictory things that can be said about Western public opinion; in the US I think during a period of conflict in a certain sense support for Israel has never been greater (like, just favorable opinions of "Israel" and unfavorable opinions of "Palestine"), but I think it might also be true that support for Israel among educated and opinionated Americans has never been weaker. My pretty strong assumption is that the former of these is more important (like, within my lifetime Israel will basically never lose Congress), but you could imagine problems if the State Department becomes really consistently hostile.

European governmental reactions, like Arab ones, seem more pro-Israel than literally ever, but I haven't seen actual public polling: I've asked users on both sides to provide it and neither side has. It feels like this is a sop to electorates that have gotten much more hostile to immigration from Muslim countries, but the people that care the most about this issue are in fact the Muslims. (That said, for all that people in this thread talk about how good Palestinian propaganda efforts are, they're really just...not? Between 1988 and 2018, every third American went from not caring to supporting Israel. It seems like the median European attitude is support for Israel just out of spite because of how obnoxious and unlikable the Palestinian movement is, and I wonder if that attitude won't be transported to the US. If support for Palestine comes to be equated with something like BLM then, well, BLM is just unpopular in a way that's sustainable forever, and it is that way in spite of much more effective propaganda. Israeli propaganda efforts do seem really ineffective, but they mostly just don't have much reach, while Palestinian ones seem to provoke people into opposing the Palestinian project).

[afleitch]

Absolutely bizarre.

https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1721947956247511262