Israel-Gaza war

[Sir Mohamed]

After a hiking weekend off, I completely missed this and just saw it like an a few hours ago. Usually it's needless to point out, but as a Muslim I feel like I have to, that this was a barbaric attack. It's on full display now how depraved and morally rotten to the core the Hamas is.

Israel has a right to exist and such acts of war won't accomplish any of their intended goals and just cause more bloodshed on both sides. Does Isreal bear some responsibility for the entire, decade-long conflict? Sure. Do they treat Palastinans as 2nd class citizens? Pretty much, though I dislike the term "authoritarian apardheid state" because it's factually not true. Hamas meanwhile is a terrorist organization that spends all its budget on missles and weapons instead of ordinary people in Gaza and elsewhere.

Where to go from here? It's difficult say, especially when Hezbollah and Iran get involved as well. As of now, substantial talks are probably impossible and both sides will try to reach their goals through excessive force. That said, I'm not even sure there's the will on either side, especially Hamas is not really interested in a peaceful solution. The people of Israel might in large parts (at least before the attack), though the currently ruling govt. under Bibi wasn't the best option for that. Instead, it was consumed with inner affairs and caused severe divisions within in Israel. It's no secret the fact this attack could be carried out in this way shows the security apparatus is weakened for homemade reasons.

[Meclazine for Israel]

US moving in Aircraft Carrier squadron offshore to Israel to say to Iran and Hezbollah - "don't even think about it".

From NBC News article:

"The U.S. military is moving an aircraft carrier strike group and military aircraft closer to Israel as a show of support, and it will also begin supplying Israel with munitions and other military supplies immediately, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said.

Austin said Sunday afternoon that he had directed the USS Gerald R. Ford Carrier Strike Group to go to the eastern Mediterranean. The group includes the carrier, a Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruiser, and four Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyers.

“We have also taken steps to augment U.S. Air Force F-35, F-15, F-16, and A-10 fighter aircraft squadrons in the region,” he said.


(Right Click - Open Image in New Tab)

USS Gerald R. Ford and Carrier Strike Group 12 Headed to Eastern Mediterranean in Support of Israel

ABC News Analysis

Interesting analysis from John Lyons who predicts the Israeli ground invasion of Gaza will begin in 3 days time.

Meanwhile in Gaza right now. Things are going bang.

Gaza Live Stream with Audio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcPPJqKsTR8

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Looks like a couple American Evangelical Fundis got caught up in the mix...

Reminds me a bit when i was living in Germany in the early / mid 1990s, working for the salvation army when the captain was telling stories about visiting the holy land, when his cars were hit by Palestinian teenager tossing rocks.

Reality is that many Palestinians living in the West Bank identify as Christian, at a time where "Jews for Jesus" was a thing, so whatever Atlas Christian Fundis might well forget how the whole scene played out amongst Orthodox Jews, including my older sister arguing with my evangelical christian dad.

Politics in this part of the middle east have lot less to due with religion, than ownership of land, combined with neighboring countries floating around after the post-colonial era looking for moral authority.

"Two Alabama church groups that were visiting Israel last week are stuck in the country, according to Facebook videos posted by the churches.

Rev. Thack Dyson of St. Paul’s Episcopal Church in Daphne, Ala., said in a Facebook live video from Israel on Sunday that he and his church group were safe in Galilee. He said many of their flights have been canceled, but he hopes they will return by Thursday."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/08/israel-gaza-strikes-hamas-netanyahu/

I would not assume that Episcopalian church groups in Galilee are at all Evangelical or fundamentalist in orientation, even ones from Alabama.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

For all that you've called me a Nazi or whatever, I'd like to point out that the father of an Israeli hostage has shown more humanity than all the blue and half of the red avatars on this forum.
https://twitter.com/tamars/status/1710964645425467880?t=02idx95FiKJyOnDn-J2RZg&a...

[bilaps]

Third day and the figthing is still ongoing on at least 7 locations on Israeli territory.

[GMantis]

Still waiting for literally any hint of a workable solution to stop the killings from the people self-righteously insisting to me that I'm advocating for mass murder for wanting people to move a few hours west.  Since apparently it's obvious that this would result in hundreds of thousands of deaths.

For a start, the US as Israel's primary sponsor, must force them to finally work seriously for a two-state solution, the only workable way to end this conflict. Because as horrific Hamas' acts were, they haven't made the whole Palestinian people lesser human beings who don't deserve basic human rights and the only way to both guarantee these rights while eliminating the causes that led Hamas to taking power in the first place.

You guys are ok with the status quo, where the terrorist group that runs Gaza gets to massacre tons of Jews and Israel isn't allowed to go anything about it.  How dare you accuse me of being the inhumane one.  Your unwillingness to consider any alternative to the status quo just indicates that you're OK with it.

And you were okay with the status quo where Israel has blockaded the Gaza strip for sixteen years, killed thousands in bombings, while keeping the rest of the Palestinians under an apartheid regime (while killing hundreds there as well). Sorry, you don't get to claim the moral high ground just because the side you sympathize with was the one that suffered most this time.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Palestinians in Sydney celebrating the murderous Hamas terrorist attack on Monday.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-09/nsw-palestinian-rally-lakemba-sydney-israel-wong/102950238


Dozens of people attended the event.(ABC News)

The celebration was condemned by Peter Dutton and Anthony Albanese alike.

[Vosem]

You guys are ok with the status quo, where the terrorist group that runs Gaza gets to massacre tons of Jews and Israel isn't allowed to go anything about it.  How dare you accuse me of being the inhumane one.  Your unwillingness to consider any alternative to the status quo just indicates that you're OK with it.

And you were okay with the status quo where Israel has blockaded the Gaza strip for sixteen years, killed thousands in bombings, while keeping the rest of the Palestinians under an apartheid regime (while killing hundreds there as well). Sorry, you don't get to claim the moral high ground just because the side you sympathize with was the one that suffered most this time.

Sure I do. One side supports genocide and tries to enact it, and tries to conquer territories that it has no claim to under international law; the other side does not. Israel has had the moral high ground for the entirety of its existence and continues to have it now. Not complicated at all, and no reasonable person disputes this or feels sympathy for Palestinian liberationism.

[TheTide]

As a point of trivia, this thread has about a third of the number of posts that the international COVID thread has. This current situation broke out, what, 48 hours ago, and of course COVID broke out the best part of four years ago.

[Hnv1]

This board is a sh**t show. Full of woke kids who never lifted a finger to do anything and pass judgment based on their minimal knowledge and the ideology they got on the back of a short reading list in college.

There's a core of good posters here, even those who take a more pro-Hamas view here. But in total this board is in a steady downfall since 2016

[GMantis]

You guys are ok with the status quo, where the terrorist group that runs Gaza gets to massacre tons of Jews and Israel isn't allowed to go anything about it.  How dare you accuse me of being the inhumane one.  Your unwillingness to consider any alternative to the status quo just indicates that you're OK with it.

And you were okay with the status quo where Israel has blockaded the Gaza strip for sixteen years, killed thousands in bombings, while keeping the rest of the Palestinians under an apartheid regime (while killing hundreds there as well). Sorry, you don't get to claim the moral high ground just because the side you sympathize with was the one that suffered most this time.

Sure I do. One side supports genocide and tries to enact it, and tries to conquer territories that it has no claim to under international law; the other side does not. Israel has had the moral high ground for the entirety of its existence and continues to have it now. Not complicated at all, and no reasonable person disputes this or feels sympathy for Palestinian liberationism.

Israel's very existence is owed to massive ethnic cleansing of the native population it carried out in 1947-48. It has held - against international law  - Palestinian majority territories for decades while oppressing the locals. Is that what you call the moral high ground? That the Palestinians have also committed many terrible crimes against Israel over the years doesn't make Israel righteous.

And what does a "reasonable" person want to happen with the Palestinians if "liberationism" is unreasonable? Expulsion or apartheid?

This board is a sh**t show. Full of woke kids who never lifted a finger to do anything and pass judgment based on their minimal knowledge and the ideology they got on the back of a short reading list in college.

There's a core of good posters here, even those who take a more pro-Hamas view here. But in total this board is in a steady downfall since 2016

Is the belief that Israel doesn't have the right to expel the Palestinians from their homeland also pro-Hamas?

[Meclazine for Israel]

Very loud explosions, and big.

Gaza Explosions Live

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcPPJqKsTR8

On the top left clock, the missile strike (?) starts at 11:11:12 on Camera 2.

Israeli army:

"Residents of the Gaza Strip, specifically the area of Abasan al-Kabira, Abasan al-Saghira & the area of Khirbet Khuza'a, pay attention."

"You must go immediately to Khan Yunis city center"

[Vosem]

You guys are ok with the status quo, where the terrorist group that runs Gaza gets to massacre tons of Jews and Israel isn't allowed to go anything about it.  How dare you accuse me of being the inhumane one.  Your unwillingness to consider any alternative to the status quo just indicates that you're OK with it.

And you were okay with the status quo where Israel has blockaded the Gaza strip for sixteen years, killed thousands in bombings, while keeping the rest of the Palestinians under an apartheid regime (while killing hundreds there as well). Sorry, you don't get to claim the moral high ground just because the side you sympathize with was the one that suffered most this time.

Sure I do. One side supports genocide and tries to enact it, and tries to conquer territories that it has no claim to under international law; the other side does not. Israel has had the moral high ground for the entirety of its existence and continues to have it now. Not complicated at all, and no reasonable person disputes this or feels sympathy for Palestinian liberationism.

Israel's very existence is owed to massive ethnic cleansing of the native population it carried out in 1947-48.

No, this is a lie which has been debunked many times.

It has held - against international law  - Palestinian majority territories for decades while oppressing the locals.

It has not held Palestinian-majority territories against international law. One can argue about the propriety of its hold on the Golan, but there is no recognized state with any claim to territories within the former Mandate other than Israel itself.

Is that what you call the moral high ground?

…yes, I already said that. I think not recognizing the overwhelming moral superiority of the Israeli side is preposterous and comically blind.

That the Palestinians have also committed many terrible crimes against Israel over the years doesn't make Israel righteous.

And what does a "reasonable" person want to happen with the Palestinians if "liberationism" is unreasonable? Expulsion or apartheid?

The solution is post-apartheid: Palestinian liberationist organizations like Fatah and Hamas, like the apartheid National Party before them, should enter a coalition with the Israeli state as its junior partners and act in good faith towards Zionism and the furtherance of the goals of the Israeli state. The alternative is the fate of the National Socialist Party in Germany — nonexistence.

The Germans and white South Africans still exist, but the goals which their governments worked for have been utterly proscribed and cast out of the souls of the people living there. This is what any moral person demands of Palestinian leadership: to accept responsibility for the conflict, to totally abandon their current goals, and to take deliberate action to aid those they have been fighting against. Also to feel sincere happiness about this outcome and to celebrate it for generations.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1711176380585537902

Feels a bit like this thread.

[H. Ross Peron]

The Maoists are fighting

You know you've screwed up badly when an ex-Maoist guerrilla leader sees your actions as terrorism.

[H. Ross Peron]

https://twitter.com/DrDavidInDC/status/1711126327250534484

Jokes aside, it looks like many protesters were chanting "700" mocking the number of Israeli dead among other questionable behaviour.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pro-palestinians-celebrate-hamas-attack-as-israel-supporters-rally-in-new-york/

Among the pro-Palestinian side, the mood was celebratory and spiteful. Demonstrators chanted “700,” apparently referring to the confirmed number of Israeli fatalities in the attack so far, and held up the number seven on their hands while making throat-slitting gestures. Others flashed victory signs with their hands while shouting insults.

One man held up a picture of an Israeli hostage on his phone and waved it at the Israeli crowd. Another was seen brandishing an image of a swastika. Some taunted the Israelis while tearing up and stomping on an Israeli flag, or danced with a Palestinian flag.

[jaichind]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/israel-backing-shekel-unprecedented-45-054359746.html

"Shekel gets $45 billion Bank of Israel support after attack"

ILS still down 1.6% after BOI intervenetion

[GMantis]

You guys are ok with the status quo, where the terrorist group that runs Gaza gets to massacre tons of Jews and Israel isn't allowed to go anything about it.  How dare you accuse me of being the inhumane one.  Your unwillingness to consider any alternative to the status quo just indicates that you're OK with it.

And you were okay with the status quo where Israel has blockaded the Gaza strip for sixteen years, killed thousands in bombings, while keeping the rest of the Palestinians under an apartheid regime (while killing hundreds there as well). Sorry, you don't get to claim the moral high ground just because the side you sympathize with was the one that suffered most this time.

Sure I do. One side supports genocide and tries to enact it, and tries to conquer territories that it has no claim to under international law; the other side does not. Israel has had the moral high ground for the entirety of its existence and continues to have it now. Not complicated at all, and no reasonable person disputes this or feels sympathy for Palestinian liberationism.

Israel's very existence is owed to massive ethnic cleansing of the native population it carried out in 1947-48.

No, this is a lie which has been debunked many times.

Even if it wasn't long proven (including by Israeli historians) that most  Palestinians were either forced out by the Israeli army or fled out of fear of Israeli attacks, Israel's refusal to allow them to return once the war was over was without any doubt ethnic cleansing.

It has held - against international law  - Palestinian majority territories for decades while oppressing the locals.

It has not held Palestinian-majority territories against international law. One can argue about the propriety of its hold on the Golan, but there is no recognized state with any claim to territories within the former Mandate other than Israel itself.

The Mandate has not been operative since 1948. Israel has no rights under that Mandate (and good for them, because the Mandate also provided for respecting the rights of the Palestinians). No country has ever recognized Israel's right to any claim to the West Bank and in fact Israel has refused to make such a claim because then they'd have to treat the local Palestinians as citizens. Instead they have held the West Bank as a military occupation and massively violated the provisions of military occupations in international law (most obviously by allowing their citizens to settle there).

Is that what you call the moral high ground?

…yes, I already said that. I think not recognizing the overwhelming moral superiority of the Israeli side is preposterous and comically blind.

A country that would never have existed without ethnic cleansing and which claims that it needs to indefinitely hold millions under blockade or under occupation for its security can't hold the moral high ground, it can merely claim to be the lesser evil. Only someone who assumes that Palestinians deserve less rights than Israelis in principle can support such views.

That the Palestinians have also committed many terrible crimes against Israel over the years doesn't make Israel righteous.

And what does a "reasonable" person want to happen with the Palestinians if "liberationism" is unreasonable? Expulsion or apartheid?

The solution is post-apartheid: Palestinian liberationist organizations like Fatah and Hamas, like the apartheid National Party before them, should enter a coalition with the Israeli state as its junior partners and act in good faith towards Zionism and the furtherance of the goals of the Israeli state. The alternative is the fate of the National Socialist Party in Germany — nonexistence.

The Germans and white South Africans still exist, but the goals which their governments worked for have been utterly proscribed and cast out of the souls of the people living there. This is what any moral person demands of Palestinian leadership: the total abandonment of their current goals and deliberate action to aid those they have been fighting against. Also to feel sincere happiness about this outcome and to celebrate it for generations.

So you're arguing for a one state solution where everyone has equal rights, which is what happened in South Africa after the fall of the Apartheid regime? Good for your if this is true. As difficult as making it work, it would be better than the present situation.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1711176380585537902

Feels a bit like this thread.

This thread is lacking the acid house tunes though. Maybe the Benny Hill theme tune is more fitting though.

I've started to pivot to thinking this was less about the Saudi-Israrl deal and more about an all out assault on the status quo and the slow drift the ME was taking. Hamas knew this kind of act would have a paradigm shift and also probably knew the consequences on things like the oil price would be anothe thorn in the side of the EU especially.

[jaichind]

Even if the conflict does not escalate into Iran joining the conflict with the risk of Iran's oil infrastructure being hit, it is very likely the USA will enforce sanctions on Iran more aggressively, leading to a surge in oil prices.  The USA had looked the other way on Iran's oil exports to counter the Russia-Saudi Arabia attempt to push up oil prices.  The USA might now have to pick between stopping Russia-Saudi Arabia and hitting Iran.

[jaichind]

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/airlines-suspend-flights-after-israel-declares-state-of-war

"Airlines Suspend Flights After Israel Declares State of War"

With Hamas hitting Tel Aviv with missiles air traffic in and out of Israel converge toward zero

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/airlines-suspend-flights-after-israel-declares-state-of-war

"Airlines Suspend Flights After Israel Declares State of War"

With Hamas hitting Tel Aviv with missiles air traffic in and out of Israel converge toward zero

Sucks to be someone still stuck in there. Perhaps some might take the land route and return to their home countries via Egypt?

[jaichind]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/irans-un-mission-says-tehran-not-involved-hamas-attacks-2023-10-09/

"Iran's UN mission says Tehran not involved in Hamas attacks"

Despite the WSJ article saying that Iran was behind the Hamas attack, Iran claims that it had no involvement other than moral support.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/airlines-suspend-flights-after-israel-declares-state-of-war

"Airlines Suspend Flights After Israel Declares State of War"

With Hamas hitting Tel Aviv with missiles air traffic in and out of Israel converge toward zero

Sucks to be someone still stuck in there. Perhaps some might take the land route and return to their home countries via Egypt?

That's seems not realistic unless you want to do the same journey Moses and Lawrence of Arabia have done. Over the Sinai desert.

Secondly there's a negative travel advice for Israeli citizens to Egypt because of some inhabitants perhaps being hostile to them. A cop killed two in Egypt.

[Hollywood]

Still waiting for literally any hint of a workable solution to stop the killings from the people self-righteously insisting to me that I'm advocating for mass murder for wanting people to move a few hours west.  Since apparently it's obvious that this would result in hundreds of thousands of deaths.

For a start, the US as Israel's primary sponsor, must force them to finally work seriously for a two-state solution, the only workable way to end this conflict. Because as horrific Hamas' acts were, they haven't made the whole Palestinian people lesser human beings who don't deserve basic human rights and the only way to both guarantee these rights while eliminating the causes that led Hamas to taking power in the first place.

You guys are ok with the status quo, where the terrorist group that runs Gaza gets to massacre tons of Jews and Israel isn't allowed to go anything about it.  How dare you accuse me of being the inhumane one.  Your unwillingness to consider any alternative to the status quo just indicates that you're OK with it.

And you were okay with the status quo where Israel has blockaded the Gaza strip for sixteen years, killed thousands in bombings, while keeping the rest of the Palestinians under an apartheid regime (while killing hundreds there as well). Sorry, you don't get to claim the moral high ground just because the side you sympathize with was the one that suffered most this time.

I've seen the governance in Islamic Nations, and it cannot be at all justified. Apartheid is enforced against non-muslims, and muslim women.  Apostacy is illegal.  Homosexuals are murdered.  There leaders rule with an iron fist.  Many of these countries are military dictatorships  We know exactly what Iran and Gazans will do if they get a strong military or political foothold in Israel.  Both Saudi Arabia and Turkey know know what will happen if Iran acquires a nuclear weapon, which is why they are allowing Israel to fly over them.

It was 17 years ago when the Gazans elected Hamas to govern their country.  Hamas has banned  elections since that times.  The main reason Israel blockaded Gaza was to stem the flow of weapons into the strip.  The IDF has performed minor military attacks to destroy tunnel systems.  How does this major attack by Hamas steer Israel towards a peaceful solution?  It won't, and it hasn't.  Instead, it has turned many 'peace at any cost' Israelis away from the idea of restraint.  And we told them that you would ask them to "show restraint" and guilt trip them with the same lines about humanity.