Israel-Gaza war

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

If I wanted my accusations to be taken seriously, I would simply not use an outlet named after a mass murder pogrom.

Fair enough, is this more suitable for your liking Ray?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-17/ty-article/.premium/unrwa-israeli-army-forced-staff-to-confess-ties-to-hamas-using-torture/0000018e-ed4f-d5d5-a59f-ef5f32280000

Nope, strike two (can’t speak Ray, but I’m sure he’ll agree).  All this article says before the paywall is that UNRWA is making these allegations.  Given that they are facing extremely credible and serious allegations of deliberately and actively aiding a genocidal terrorist group, I’m not sure why anyone should trust a word they say.

[Horus]

If I wanted my accusations to be taken seriously, I would simply not use an outlet named after a mass murder pogrom.

Fair enough, is this more suitable for your liking Ray?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-17/ty-article/.premium/unrwa-israeli-army-forced-staff-to-confess-ties-to-hamas-using-torture/0000018e-ed4f-d5d5-a59f-ef5f32280000

Nope, strike two (can’t speak Ray, but I’m sure he’ll agree).  All this article says before the paywall is that UNRWA is making these allegations.  Given that they are facing extremely credible and serious allegations of deliberately and actively aiding a genocidal terrorist group, I’m not sure why anyone should trust a word they say.

So credible that the German government, who are even bigger cheerleaders for Bibi than the Biden admin, restored their funding.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

If I wanted my accusations to be taken seriously, I would simply not use an outlet named after a mass murder pogrom.

Fair enough, is this more suitable for your liking Ray?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-17/ty-article/.premium/unrwa-israeli-army-forced-staff-to-confess-ties-to-hamas-using-torture/0000018e-ed4f-d5d5-a59f-ef5f32280000

Ah, yes, paywalled, unfortunately, but I can see enough. Looks like both sides have levied fairly extreme accusations against each other, and I'm sure there will be further investigations.

You can get around the paywall by pasting the URL into archive.is. Here is the unblocked article.

UNRWA: Israeli Army Forced Staff to Confess Ties to Hamas Using Torture
A report published by the UN agency for Palestinian refugees includes accounts by its staff members who were detained in Israel of being threatened and coerced to make false confessions that agency staffers took part in the October 7 Hamas attacks

UNRWA, the United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees, accused Israeli security forces of using torture to extract false confessions from its employees about their ties to Hamas.

A report published by the agency Tuesday includes accounts by detainees working for the agency of abuse that included beatings by interrogators and doctors working with the military, as well as attacks by dogs and threats of rape and murder.

According to UNRWA, over 1,506 detainees from the Gaza Strip have been released from IDF custody after being interrogated, including 23 UNRWA staff and 16 family members of UNRWA staff.

In recent months, Israel has claimed that at least 30 UNRWA employees participated in the October 7 Hamas attack. In the wake of the accusations, some 20 countries and institutions suspended funding to the agency, but some of them have since resumed their support.

According to the report, UNRWA staff members detained by Israel were pressured to confess that agency staffers took part in the October 7 attacks. The abuse, which involved threats and coercion, included "treatment akin to waterboarding," according to the report.

According to data in the report, among the detainees who were released through the Kerem Shalom crossing into the Gaza Strip, without facing prosecution, were 43 minors and 84 women. According to the agency, they were interrogated several times prior to their release from Shin Bet custody.

Detainees described having all items in their possession at the time of their arrest confiscated, including identification documents and money. According to data obtained by Haaretz, 27 Gazan detainees have died in military facilities in Israel since the start of the war. It is not known, however, how many of them were suffering from health problems or from injuries due to the war before their arrest.

Most of the Gazans arrested by Israel are detained under the Unlawful Combatants Law, which permits the detention without trial of anyone who participated in hostile activity who is not classified by Israel as a prisoner of war.

In December, the cabinet approved an amendment to the law that degrades the conditions in which detainees may be held, and allows detainees suspected of involvement in terrorism to be held for 75 days without being brought before a judge.

In a report published by the UN refugee agency last month, it was claimed that Gazan detainees, of whom at least 1,000 civilians were released, were held in three military detention facilities in Israel, where they were beaten, robbed, stripped, sexually assaulted, blindfolded and denied access to doctors and lawyers, sometimes for more than a month.

The IDF submitted the following response: "We cannot respond to the testimonies mentioned in the report individually without the full details of the detainees and verification that they were held in IDF detention facilities.

During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, Palestinians suspected of terrorist activity are detained. The relevant suspects are taken for further detention and questioning in Israeli territory. Those who appear not to be involved in terrorist activity are released back to the Gaza Strip.

The interrogations are carried out in accordance with Israeli and international law while protecting the rights of detainees held in detention and interrogation facilities.

Inappropriate behavior towards detainees in detention and interrogation contravenes IDF orders and values. Any allegation of misconduct by IDF soldiers is investigated and dealt with accordingly. In appropriate cases, investigations are opened by the Military Police's Investigations Unit when there is a suspicion of inappropriate behavior.

The IDF rejects claims that it coerces detainees into giving false confessions. In addition, the IDF rejects allegations of systematic and deliberate abuse of detainees, including sexual abuse, in the detention and interrogation facilities under its responsibility. Allegations of sexual abuse are intended to create a false comparison to the systematic and cruel rapes committed by Hamas. It should be emphasized that so far not a single complaint has been submitted regarding sexual abuse of detainees by IDF soldiers, and as stated, the allegations cannot be clarified without providing the detainees' identifying details."

In other words, the group that got caught actively aiding Hamas’ genocidal terrorist campaign is attempting damage control by basically saying “umm…uhhh…I know!  The (((Israelis))) were torturing us!  Yeah, that’s it!  We didn’t do anything wrong when we aided Hamas and some of our employees took part in the 10/7 attack because the (((Israelis))) tortured false confessions out of our people!  Evidence?  Evidence?  We don’t need no stinkin’ evidence!  #TotalExoneration”

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

If I wanted my accusations to be taken seriously, I would simply not use an outlet named after a mass murder pogrom.

Fair enough, is this more suitable for your liking Ray?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-17/ty-article/.premium/unrwa-israeli-army-forced-staff-to-confess-ties-to-hamas-using-torture/0000018e-ed4f-d5d5-a59f-ef5f32280000

Nope, strike two (can’t speak Ray, but I’m sure he’ll agree).  All this article says before the paywall is that UNRWA is making these allegations.  Given that they are facing extremely credible and serious allegations of deliberately and actively aiding a genocidal terrorist group, I’m not sure why anyone should trust a word they say.

So credible that the German government, who are even bigger cheerleaders for Bibi than the Biden admin, restored their funding.

No, Germany basically said “we aren’t quite convinced enough that they were aiding terrorists not to restore funding, but it’s possible that they were.”

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

If I wanted my accusations to be taken seriously, I would simply not use an outlet named after a mass murder pogrom.

Fair enough, is this more suitable for your liking Ray?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-17/ty-article/.premium/unrwa-israeli-army-forced-staff-to-confess-ties-to-hamas-using-torture/0000018e-ed4f-d5d5-a59f-ef5f32280000

Nope, strike two (can’t speak Ray, but I’m sure he’ll agree).  All this article says before the paywall is that UNRWA is making these allegations.  Given that they are facing extremely credible and serious allegations of deliberately and actively aiding a genocidal terrorist group, I’m not sure why anyone should trust a word they say.

The IDF is not "extremely credible", they're serial liars, there isn't a less credible source in existence. They tried to pass off Shireen Abu Akleh as a "crossfire victim" until the evidence that they were responsible was overwhelming. They tried to claim a scared girl was a legitimate target to gun down without repurcussions. They tried to pass off a calendar as a list of terrorist leaders. The fact that even the most sycophantic of IDF believers like the Germans are backing off should be a clear sign that they were, as usual, lying.

In other words, the group that got caught actively aiding Hamas’ genocidal terrorist campaign is attempting damage control by basically saying “umm…uhhh…I know!  The (((Israelis))) were torturing us!  Yeah, that’s it!  We didn’t do anything wrong when we aided Hamas and some of our employees took part in the 10/7 attack because the (((Israelis))) tortured false confessions out of our people!  Evidence?  Evidence?  We don’t need no stinkin’ evidence!  #TotalExoneration”

The fact that Israel tortures false confessions out of people, including children, isn't in question.

https://twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1733272221601390636

 It's utterly bizarre that you think UNRWA needs to provide evidence that they aren't guilty of being terrorists but Israel doesn't need to reveal any evidence that they are for you to believe them.

Also, there's nothing in this world that's more effective at promoting anti-semitism than the state of Israel and the would-be camp guards like you insisting that Jews and Israel are inseparable and if you have a problem with the state of babykilling freaks then you have a problem with Jews.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

And we have officially crossed the rubicon with one of Twitter's most infamous neo-nazis being posted as a credible source.

[Horus]

If I wanted my accusations to be taken seriously, I would simply not use an outlet named after a mass murder pogrom.

Fair enough, is this more suitable for your liking Ray?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-17/ty-article/.premium/unrwa-israeli-army-forced-staff-to-confess-ties-to-hamas-using-torture/0000018e-ed4f-d5d5-a59f-ef5f32280000

Nope, strike two (can’t speak Ray, but I’m sure he’ll agree).  All this article says before the paywall is that UNRWA is making these allegations.  Given that they are facing extremely credible and serious allegations of deliberately and actively aiding a genocidal terrorist group, I’m not sure why anyone should trust a word they say.

The IDF is not "extremely credible", they're serial liars, there isn't a less credible source in existence. They tried to pass off Shireen Abu Akleh as a "crossfire victim" until the evidence that they were responsible was overwhelming. They tried to claim a scared girl was a legitimate target to gun down without repurcussions. They tried to pass off a calendar as a list of terrorist leaders. The fact that even the most sycophantic of IDF believers like the Germans are backing off should be a clear sign that they were, as usual, lying.

In other words, the group that got caught actively aiding Hamas’ genocidal terrorist campaign is attempting damage control by basically saying “umm…uhhh…I know!  The (((Israelis))) were torturing us!  Yeah, that’s it!  We didn’t do anything wrong when we aided Hamas and some of our employees took part in the 10/7 attack because the (((Israelis))) tortured false confessions out of our people!  Evidence?  Evidence?  We don’t need no stinkin’ evidence!  #TotalExoneration”

The fact that Israel tortures false confessions out of people, including children, isn't in question.

https://twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1733272221601390636

 It's utterly bizarre that you think UNRWA needs to provide evidence that they aren't guilty of being terrorists but Israel doesn't need to reveal any evidence that they are for you to believe them.

Also, there's nothing in this world that's more effective at promoting anti-semitism than the state of Israel and the would-be camp guards like you insisting that Jews and Israel are inseparable and if you have a problem with the state of babykilling freaks then you have a problem with Jews.

They're gonna deflect from this by whining that you shared a Jake Shields post, instead of actually having a dialogue with what's being said. Just forewarning you.

ETA - Ray beat me to it lol

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Jake Shields is a more reliable source than the IDF, prove me wrong

(also he isn't the source the confessing IDF soldier is)

Just keep on telling on yourself. That's right, the CTE Nazi who calls people "Lying Jews" is a credible source. You're in good company.

[Horus]

Jake Shields is a more reliable source than the IDF, prove me wrong

(also he isn't the source the confessing IDF soldier is)

Just keep on telling on yourself. That's right, the CTE Nazi who calls people "Lying Jews" is a credible source. You're in good company.

How do you feel about what the former IDF soldier says in the video?

[Open Source Intelligence]

Isreali National Security Minister Ben Gvir involved in a serious car accident when his car flipped over.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Jake Shields is a more reliable source than the IDF, prove me wrong

(also he isn't the source the confessing IDF soldier is)

Just keep on telling on yourself. That's right, the CTE Nazi who calls people "Lying Jews" is a credible source. You're in good company.

How do you feel about what the former IDF soldier says in the video?

My feelings are that the infamous neo-nazi likely posted a deceptive or doctored video, as I haven't seen it posted from any credible left-wing sources. I don't engage with content posted by Nazis.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

I really don't think "Don't post unapologetic far-right Nazis as part of your case against Israel" is a particularly hard bar to reach.

[Angel of Death]

No, Germany basically said “we aren’t quite convinced enough that they were aiding terrorists not to restore funding, but it’s possible that they were.”

You're the second person who has asserted this without providing any source in support.

[GoTfan]

Where exactly have the allegations against the UNRWA been proven? Israel's made the accusation. Burden of proof is on them to provide irrefutable evidence and so far, they have not. Not even Germany's been convinced of it. Demanding that the UNRWA provide proof that they didn't support terrorists is insane because first, your demanding that they prove their own innocence, and second, because you wouldn't believe them even if they did.

Innocent until proven guilty, and so far, the UNRWA had not been proven guilty.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Isreali National Security Minister Ben Gvir involved in a serious car accident when his car flipped over.

I hope Ben Gvir's internal organs do the right thing.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Where exactly have the allegations against the UNRWA been proven? Israel's made the accusation. Burden of proof is on them to provide irrefutable evidence and so far, they have not. Not even Germany's been convinced of it. Demanding that the UNRWA provide proof that they didn't support terrorists is insane because first, your demanding that they prove their own innocence, and second, because you wouldn't believe them even if they did.

Innocent until proven guilty, and so far, the UNRWA had not been proven guilty.

Israel has provided eyewitness testimony of hostages who were held and abused by UNRWA employees. The defense that would make the most sense for UNRWA is that they were not capable of policing the conduct of every single employee they have on the ground. It's the equivalent of how a Disney employee committing a murder in their off time isn't grounds for a boycott of Disney. I believe they've claimed complete innocence and now levied their own accusations against Israel.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Isreali National Security Minister Ben Gvir involved in a serious car accident when his car flipped over.

I'll be so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so sad if he leaves us.

[GoTfan]

Where exactly have the allegations against the UNRWA been proven? Israel's made the accusation. Burden of proof is on them to provide irrefutable evidence and so far, they have not. Not even Germany's been convinced of it. Demanding that the UNRWA provide proof that they didn't support terrorists is insane because first, your demanding that they prove their own innocence, and second, because you wouldn't believe them even if they did.

Innocent until proven guilty, and so far, the UNRWA had not been proven guilty.

Israel has provided eyewitness testimony of hostages who were held and abused by UNRWA employees. The defense that would make the most sense for UNRWA is that they were not capable of policing the conduct of every single employee they have on the ground. It's the equivalent of how a Disney employee committing a murder in their off time isn't grounds for a boycott of Disney. I believe they've claimed complete innocence and now levied their own accusations against Israel.

And yet, not even Germany is convinced that the evidence provided is beyond doubt.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Where exactly have the allegations against the UNRWA been proven? Israel's made the accusation. Burden of proof is on them to provide irrefutable evidence and so far, they have not. Not even Germany's been convinced of it. Demanding that the UNRWA provide proof that they didn't support terrorists is insane because first, your demanding that they prove their own innocence, and second, because you wouldn't believe them even if they did.

Innocent until proven guilty, and so far, the UNRWA had not been proven guilty.

Israel has provided eyewitness testimony of hostages who were held and abused by UNRWA employees. The defense that would make the most sense for UNRWA is that they were not capable of policing the conduct of every single employee they have on the ground. It's the equivalent of how a Disney employee committing a murder in their off time isn't grounds for a boycott of Disney. I believe they've claimed complete innocence and now levied their own accusations against Israel.

And yet, not even Germany is convinced that the evidence provided is beyond doubt.

With no evidence besides hostage testimony and it being very difficult if not impossible to investigate fully on the ground in Gaza, I'm not surprised. The suspension of support to UNRWA was a procedural decision and not a legal one. The odds are UNRWA made some quiet guarantees to get them back on board - the important detail here is that Germany has not commented on the substance of Israel's accusations either way, so the other people claiming that it was proven Israel was lying upthread are, in fact, lying.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Jake Shields is a more reliable source than the IDF, prove me wrong

(also he isn't the source the confessing IDF soldier is)

Just keep on telling on yourself. That's right, the CTE Nazi who calls people "Lying Jews" is a credible source. You're in good company.

I mean, ModernBourbonDemocrat is an anti-Semite himself (I recommend putting him on ignore, nothing of value will be lost), so I’m sure he considers Fields being a Nazi who calls people “lying Jews” a testament to his credibility.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I can't believe I wasted several posts on this thread trying to have a conversation with someone who is getting his information from one of Twitter's most notorious Holocaust-denying neo-nazis.

Really wild how these people will always say "oh I'm just anti-Zionist" or "oh I just don't like the Israeli government" and insist that they're not anti-semites, but then inevitably, inevitably, inevitably they eventually tell on themselves by either
A) Palling around with real anti-semites who hate Jews and want to kill them
B) Revealing that they see anti-semitic neo-nazis as credible arbiters of information
C) Endorsing the aims, and defending the tactics, of anti-semitic groups that want to kill the Jews

but then people like me getting slammed for labeling them "anti-semitic" based on such things because even though I'm inevitably proven right, until that day comes, we are all required to go along with this farce of "oh that person just doesn't like Netanyahu" even though it's very obvious where things are headed.

[omar04]

No, Germany basically said “we aren’t quite convinced enough that they were aiding terrorists not to restore funding, but it’s possible that they were.”

You're the second person who has asserted this without providing any source in support.

At best the independent review the German government cited states that Israel has not provided any evidence for their claims:

Of note, UNRWA screens names using the New Consolidated List27 es-
tablished and maintained by the Security Council Committee. However, to
date, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, for example, have not been included in this
list by the UN Security Council.
UNRWA shares staff lists (names and functions) annually with host coun-
tries (Lebanon, Jordan and Syria), and with Israel and the US for East Je-
rusalem, Gaza and the West Bank.28 Sharing information on UN staff with
host countries is a regular practice that follows the Convention on Immunity
22
and Privileges. It is then the responsibility of these States to alert UNRWA
of any information that may deem a staff member unworthy of diplomatic
immunity. Of note, the Israeli Government has not informed UNRWA of any
concerns relating to any UNRWA staff based on these staff lists since 2011.
During meetings with Israeli officials, it was communicated that Israel does
not consider the sharing of the staff list as a screening or vetting process,
but as a standard procedure for the registration of UN and diplomatic staff
to ensure their privileges and immunities.
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs informed that until March 2024, they
had received staff lists without identification (ID) numbers. On the basis of
the March 2024 list, which contained staff ID numbers, Israel made public
claims that a significant number of UNRWA employees are members of
terrorist organizations. However, Israel has yet to provide supporting evi-
dence of this.

https://www.unrwa.org/resources/reports/independent-review-mechanisms-and-procedures-ensure-adherence-unrwa-humanitarian

There is also a separate investigation into the claims of a dozen employees being involved in Oct. 7, ten of whom have been fired.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

No, Germany basically said “we aren’t quite convinced enough that they were aiding terrorists not to restore funding, but it’s possible that they were.”

You're the second person who has asserted this without providing any source in support.

At best the independent review the German government cited states that Israel has not provided any evidence for their claims:

Of note, UNRWA screens names using the New Consolidated List27 es-
tablished and maintained by the Security Council Committee. However, to
date, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, for example, have not been included in this
list by the UN Security Council.
UNRWA shares staff lists (names and functions) annually with host coun-
tries (Lebanon, Jordan and Syria), and with Israel and the US for East Je-
rusalem, Gaza and the West Bank.28 Sharing information on UN staff with
host countries is a regular practice that follows the Convention on Immunity
22
and Privileges. It is then the responsibility of these States to alert UNRWA
of any information that may deem a staff member unworthy of diplomatic
immunity. Of note, the Israeli Government has not informed UNRWA of any
concerns relating to any UNRWA staff based on these staff lists since 2011.
During meetings with Israeli officials, it was communicated that Israel does
not consider the sharing of the staff list as a screening or vetting process,
but as a standard procedure for the registration of UN and diplomatic staff
to ensure their privileges and immunities.
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs informed that until March 2024, they
had received staff lists without identification (ID) numbers. On the basis of
the March 2024 list, which contained staff ID numbers, Israel made public
claims that a significant number of UNRWA employees are members of
terrorist organizations. However, Israel has yet to provide supporting evi-
dence of this.

https://www.unrwa.org/resources/reports/independent-review-mechanisms-and-procedures-ensure-adherence-unrwa-humanitarian

There is also a separate investigation into the claims of a dozen employees being involved in Oct. 7, ten of whom have been fired.

UNRWA isn’t a credible source for anything

[omar04]

No, Germany basically said “we aren’t quite convinced enough that they were aiding terrorists not to restore funding, but it’s possible that they were.”

You're the second person who has asserted this without providing any source in support.

At best the independent review the German government cited states that Israel has not provided any evidence for their claims:

Of note, UNRWA screens names using the New Consolidated List27 es-
tablished and maintained by the Security Council Committee. However, to
date, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, for example, have not been included in this
list by the UN Security Council.
UNRWA shares staff lists (names and functions) annually with host coun-
tries (Lebanon, Jordan and Syria), and with Israel and the US for East Je-
rusalem, Gaza and the West Bank.28 Sharing information on UN staff with
host countries is a regular practice that follows the Convention on Immunity
22
and Privileges. It is then the responsibility of these States to alert UNRWA
of any information that may deem a staff member unworthy of diplomatic
immunity. Of note, the Israeli Government has not informed UNRWA of any
concerns relating to any UNRWA staff based on these staff lists since 2011.
During meetings with Israeli officials, it was communicated that Israel does
not consider the sharing of the staff list as a screening or vetting process,
but as a standard procedure for the registration of UN and diplomatic staff
to ensure their privileges and immunities.
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs informed that until March 2024, they
had received staff lists without identification (ID) numbers. On the basis of
the March 2024 list, which contained staff ID numbers, Israel made public
claims that a significant number of UNRWA employees are members of
terrorist organizations. However, Israel has yet to provide supporting evi-
dence of this.

https://www.unrwa.org/resources/reports/independent-review-mechanisms-and-procedures-ensure-adherence-unrwa-humanitarian

There is also a separate investigation into the claims of a dozen employees being involved in Oct. 7, ten of whom have been fired.

UNRWA isn’t a credible source for anything

This review was done by outside groups as the name "Independent Review Group" suggests so I'm not sure what your point is here.

The Review Group commenced its work on 13 February 2024. Led by Ms.
Catherine Colonna, the Group included three research organizations, name-
ly the Raoul Wallenberg Institute of Human Rights and Humanitarian Law
in Sweden, the Chr. Michelsen Institute in Norway, and the Danish Institute
for Human Rights.

[Wiswylfen]

If I wanted my accusations to be taken seriously, I would simply not use an outlet named after a mass murder pogrom.

Fair enough, is this more suitable for your liking Ray?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-17/ty-article/.premium/unrwa-israeli-army-forced-staff-to-confess-ties-to-hamas-using-torture/0000018e-ed4f-d5d5-a59f-ef5f32280000

Nope, strike two (can’t speak Ray, but I’m sure he’ll agree).  All this article says before the paywall is that UNRWA is making these allegations.  Given that they are facing extremely credible and serious allegations of deliberately and actively aiding a genocidal terrorist group, I’m not sure why anyone should trust a word they say.

Extremely credible, serious: goodness.