Putin’s Next Target Is U.S. Support for Ukraine

[Yoda]

Seems pretty relevant with all of the propaganda-inspired posts we've had around here lately like "Do we give Ukraine too much monies???" and "Putin really invaded Ukraine b/c of NATO aggression and Nazis this one guy said so trust me bro" that come almost exclusively from the fringe, conspiracy theory right.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/02/us/politics/putin-ukraine-spy-united-states.html

American officials said they are convinced that Mr. Putin intends to try to end U.S. and European support for Ukraine by using his spy agencies to push propaganda supporting pro-Russian political parties and by stoking conspiracy theories with new technologies.”

“The Russia disinformation aims to increase support for candidates opposing Ukraine aid with the ultimate goal of stopping international military assistance to Kyiv...

[dead0man]

he's been doing it since before he started his humiliating war

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

He's been doing this for awhile and of course the results of this crap is what people like hermit are lapping up without question.

[Fuzzy Bear]

He's been doing this for awhile and of course the results of this crap is what people like hermit are lapping up without question.

Sorry, but I'm not going to lap up the "Whatever it takes!" standard for Ukraine without question.  I've been asked (figuratively) to do this over Vietnam, over Kuwait, over Irag, and over Afghanistan in my lifetime, and I don't think that either America or the World is any better off for all of this.  The War Profiteers are better off, but I don't care about them.  Bechtel profited immensely on Desert Storm and Halliburton profited immensely on Iraq.  Where are the "liberals" on who profits from Ukraine?  (Indeed, even Harry Truman, as a Senator, investigated war profiteering during WWII.)

The die-hard Bidenistas here (read "Democratic Party Hacks") need this war to reelect their President, no matter how badly it's going.  I've been alive for my government (from both parties) lying about how well an American war was going, and I was alive for the government's response to Daniel Ellsberg when he "leaked" the Pentagon Papers, disclosing the truth about the light at the end of the tunnel being on oncoming train.  I've been alive for proxy wars, but there's a problem when you are in a proxy war against a nuclear power like, say, Russia, and victory hinges on sponsoring an attack against that nation inside its borders.  (That, by the way, is likely what will be needed to succeed in Ukraine at some point, so speculate how that will end.)

There is no humanitarian reason not to be all in for a meaningful peace process that can bring forth a resolution to the war and prevent literally MILLIONS from dying.  Why we are not pursuing that is nonsense.  And I am going to say this unequivocally:  Anyone who thinks that Putin is going to just surrender himself to The Hague as a War Criminal is nuts.  He'll use nukes first.  And a basic reality of our World is that the rules are different for nations that have nukes as opposed to nations that don't.

Now I'll again renew my call for young, military age posters of this Forum who are "all in" on this war to enlist in the Army or Marines and prepare to be two of the American boots on the ground in Ukraine.  We'll be there someday soon at the rate things are going.  This isn't apology for Putin; this is the conviction of an anti-war American who's been consistently anti-war since Vietnam, regardless of party.  The post I'm responding to is little more than an updated version of "If you don't support our Vietnam War policies, your a Commie, or a Fellow Traveler."  Seeking a negotiated settlement is in the interests of America.  Indeed, I believe it's in the interest of the whole World.

[Hindsight was 2020]

And by mere coincidence Elon Musk started tweeting out serious anti-Ukraine stuff recently 🧐

[Person Man]

If you fall for it, then you are a dumbass. There has quite simply been this "unpresidented" parade of very stupid so-called "gifted" people lately. It's like a savant convention. Next question.

[Hindsight was 2020]

If you fall for it, then you are a dumbass. There has quite simply been this "unpresidented" parade of very stupid so-called "gifted" people lately. It's like a savant convention. Next question.

What are you telling me this man isn’t a serious person?

[Person Man]

If you fall for it, then you are a dumbass. There has quite simply been this "unpresidented" parade of very stupid so-called "gifted" people lately. It's like a savant convention. Next question.

What are you telling me this man isn’t a serious person?

I didn’t say anyone was or wasn’t serious. There’s nothing in between the lines here.

[Ferguson97]

There is no humanitarian reason not to be all in for a meaningful peace process that can bring forth a resolution to the war and prevent literally MILLIONS from dying.  Why we are not pursuing that is nonsense.  And I am going to say this unequivocally:  Anyone who thinks that Putin is going to just surrender himself to The Hague as a War Criminal is nuts.  He'll use nukes first.  And a basic reality of our World is that the rules are different for nations that have nukes as opposed to nations that don't.

If what you’re saying about Putin is true, then why would be be interested in peace talks?

Negotiations can only work if you have reason to believe that both parties can be trusted, and there is no reason to trust Putin.

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

There is no humanitarian reason not to be all in for a meaningful peace process that can bring forth a resolution to the war and prevent literally MILLIONS from dying.  Why we are not pursuing that is nonsense.  And I am going to say this unequivocally:  Anyone who thinks that Putin is going to just surrender himself to The Hague as a War Criminal is nuts.  He'll use nukes first.  And a basic reality of our World is that the rules are different for nations that have nukes as opposed to nations that don't.

If what you’re saying about Putin is true, then why would be be interested in peace talks?

Negotiations can only work if you have reason to believe that both parties can be trusted, and there is no reason to trust Putin.

Yeah, negotiating an end to aggressions in exchange for Crimea and the separatist areas and assuming everything will be fine really gives me echoes of another situation where ceding land to an invader didn't result in peace...

[Yoda]

He's been doing this for awhile and of course the results of this crap is what people like hermit are lapping up without question.

Sorry, but I'm not going to lap up the "Whatever it takes!" standard for Ukraine without question.  I've been asked (figuratively) to do this over Vietnam, over Kuwait, over Irag, and over Afghanistan in my lifetime, and I don't think that either America or the World is any better off for all of this.  The War Profiteers are better off, but I don't care about them.  Bechtel profited immensely on Desert Storm and Halliburton profited immensely on Iraq.  Where are the "liberals" on who profits from Ukraine?  (Indeed, even Harry Truman, as a Senator, investigated war profiteering during WWII.)

I see the people of Ukraine benefiting the most from our involvement, by far, as it should be. I wouldn't say they're "profiting" at all, as your dear Putin has destroyed hundreds of billions of dollars worth of infrastructure and buildings in Ukraine. If you are so against the idea of anyone making a cent in profit off of any and all conflict, then you and your political party are more than welcome to argue in favor of nationalizing the defense industry, Mr. Blue Avatar. Most democrats would be with you. But, like most bad faith arguments from republicans, I don't think you actually care about someone in the private sector making money off of war, rather you're just using it as a convenient argument to attain your goal of leaving democratic Ukraine to be destroyed by a right-wing autocrat.

[Yoda]

He's been doing this for awhile and of course the results of this crap is what people like hermit are lapping up without question.

The die-hard Bidenistas here (read "Democratic Party Hacks") need this war to reelect their President, no matter how badly it's going.  I've been alive for my government (from both parties) lying about how well an American war was going, and I was alive for the government's response to Daniel Ellsberg when he "leaked" the Pentagon Papers, disclosing the truth about the light at the end of the tunnel being on oncoming train.  I've been alive for proxy wars, but there's a problem when you are in a proxy war against a nuclear power like, say, Russia, and victory hinges on sponsoring an attack against that nation inside its borders. (That, by the way, is likely what will be needed to succeed in Ukraine at some point, so speculate how that will end.)

The war's going pretty well for Ukraine, actually. They've destroyed or hobbled Russia's Black Sea fleet, while having no Navy of their own. You might wanna read up on these things.

This isn't an American war, this is Russia's war. We didn't invade anyone, and warned Russia against doing so.

Russia has already been counterattacked within it's own borders by Ukraine. That's.....what happens when you launch an illegal war of imperialist aggression against another country. They....fight back for survival. This isn't hard to understand. You've clearly swallowed the Kremlin propaganda that any counterattack will lead to a nuclear holocaust and WWIII, but the rest of us see that for the North Korea-style empty bluster that it is.

[Yoda]

He's been doing this for awhile and of course the results of this crap is what people like hermit are lapping up without question.

There is no humanitarian reason not to be all in for a meaningful peace process that can bring forth a resolution to the war and prevent literally MILLIONS from dying.  Why we are not pursuing that is nonsense.  And I am going to say this unequivocally:  Anyone who thinks that Putin is going to just surrender himself to The Hague as a War Criminal is nuts.  He'll use nukes first.  And a basic reality of our World is that the rules are different for nations that have nukes as opposed to nations that don't.

What would such a deal look like in your mind, specifically? What security guarantees would Ukraine have that this time, for real, it's borders would be defended against a state sponsor of terrorism in Russia, to PREVENT further war from happening again(which you claim to be so concerned with)? What reparations would Russia pay for all the civilians it has raped, tortured and killed? Who is going to foot the bill to rebuild the destroyed parts of Ukraine so people can leave Poland, etc and return to their homes? Will all the Ukrainian children who have been kidnapped and trafficked to far-flung parts of Russia be returned to their families? I want specific details please, not just meaningless platitudes.

No one has said this is going to surrender himself to the Hague. Literally no one. Unserious straw man argument.

[Yoda]

He's been doing this for awhile and of course the results of this crap is what people like hermit are lapping up without question.

Now I'll again renew my call for young, military age posters of this Forum who are "all in" on this war to enlist in the Army or Marines and prepare to be two of the American boots on the ground in Ukraine.  We'll be there someday soon at the rate things are going.  This isn't apology for Putin; this is the conviction of an anti-war American who's been consistently anti-war since Vietnam, regardless of party.  The post I'm responding to is little more than an updated version of "If you don't support our Vietnam War policies, your a Commie, or a Fellow Traveler."  Seeking a negotiated settlement is in the interests of America.  Indeed, I believe it's in the interest of the whole World.

Unserious straw man argument. No one who supports the US sending aid and weapons to Ukraine so they can defend themselves from terrorists has advocated for American boots on the ground. Not one democratic politician has advocated for this, and I don't even know of any democrats on this forum who have advocated for this.

A negotiated settlement that allows Russia to continue to occupy Ukraine is not in the best interests of America, or the world, or most importantly, Ukraine. This would only further encourage Putin to launch yet more wars of imperialist aggression to conquer more territory, and would signal China that they are free to do the same with Taiwan and whoever else they want, leading to God knows how many endless wars (which you claim to be against). A victory where Ukraine regains all of it's lost territory and is able to defend it's borders is the only real outcome that would lead to long-lasting peace.

Your preferred policy of appeasement and coddling of dictators would lead to more wars and innocent death than my policy of retaking and fortifying Ukraine ever would.

[DaleCooper]

He's been doing this for awhile and of course the results of this crap is what people like hermit are lapping up without question.

The die-hard Bidenistas here (read "Democratic Party Hacks") need this war to reelect their President, no matter how badly it's going.  

I deleted the rest of your post to save space since none of it seemed particularly relevant or in touch with reality, but this sentence is especially bizarre. In spite of taking up a lot of oxygen in politically engaged internet communities, Ukraine seems to have been almost a complete non-entity in American elections over the last almost two years. I almost never hear about it outside of Atlas. There's no indication that support for Ukraine is central to Biden's reelection strategy, lmao.

[Damocles]

Ceterum autem censeo Principatum Moscoviae esse delendam.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Ceterum autem censeo Principatum Moscoviae esse delendam.

fundatur

[MasterJedi]

Well he has a good 30% of the Republican Party ready to be his collaborators. Average GOP voter Fuzzy fully ready to roll over and get a belly rub

[President Johnson]

That has always been his strategy after it quickly became evident the war wouldn't be won in a matter of weeks as previously anticipated. Drag it out and hope that public support in the US and Europe would deminish. He's aware of the fact that Western democracies are deeply divided between internationalist, pro-multilateralism and pro-globalism and nationalist, isolationist forces. By strengthening latter through various measures like all the Russian internet troll farms, his regime tries to take advantage of that.

[Mercenary]

"Do we give X country too much money" isnt propoganda. It is our governments job to look out for Americans first and foremost, we should only be helping out other nations if our own people are taken care of. Have you seen our third world cities? US cannot even take care of its own so of course we shouldnt be sending billions to Ukraine.

Anyway, of course he would want to target such support. That isnt news. That doesnt mean we should give Ukraine more money just because Russia doesnt like it. The enemy of your enemy isnt more important than your own people.

[Hindsight was 2020]

"Do we give X country too much money" isnt propoganda. It is our governments job to look out for Americans first and foremost, we should only be helping out other nations if our own people are taken care of. Have you seen our third world cities? US cannot even take care of its own so of course we shouldnt be sending billions to Ukraine.

Anyway, of course he would want to target such support. That isnt news. That doesnt mean we should give Ukraine more money just because Russia doesnt like it. The enemy of your enemy isnt more important than your own people.

Screwing over Ukraine by cutting off the equivalent of loose couch change to our military budget won’t solve any domestic problem

[Senator Incitatus]

he's been doing it since before he started his humiliating war

Supporting the Ukrainian war effort before the war started? I thought we left the hipster memes in 2015.

[dead0man]

he's been doing it since before he started his humiliating war

Supporting the Ukrainian war effort before the war started? I thought we left the hipster memes in 2015.

the war started in 2014

[Senator Incitatus]

he's been doing it since before he started his humiliating war

Supporting the Ukrainian war effort before the war started? I thought we left the hipster memes in 2015.

the war started in 2014

That... wasn't the point of the date in my comment.

[dead0man]

he's been doing it since before he started his humiliating war

Supporting the Ukrainian war effort before the war started? I thought we left the hipster memes in 2015.

the war started in 2014

That... wasn't the point of the date in my comment.

I....know