Ukrainian Socialists Have A Bone To Pick With Lefties In The West.

[jojoju1998]

"Too many of them, he says, parrot Kremlin talking points that NATO provoked Russia into invading Ukraine (“That’s bullsh**t,” he told me) and that the West’s refusal to negotiate with President Vladimir Putin will lead to nuclear war. In his view, progressives in the United States and Europe, whom he generally aligns with when it comes to fighting capitalism and supporting workers’ rights, are out of touch when it comes to their regional security, especially when the culprit is not Washington or Brussels. Starodubtsev added many of these people are, to some extent, influenced by the discourse of “tankies” — people who align with authoritarian states while posing as a left-wing.

A head of the Kyiv branch of the Ukrainian democratic socialist nongovernmental organization, Sotsialnyi Rukh (The Social Movement), Starodubtsev said he and its membership oppose imperial uses of military power and do not support the proliferation of nuclear weapons. But because Russia is their neighbor, the conversion around these issues requires nuance and philosophical compromises that his progressive peers in the West have the privilege to ignore — particularly lefties in the United States. "


https://inkstickmedia.com/ukrainian-socialists-have-a-bone-to-pick-with-lefties-in-the-west/

[Alben Barkley]

Roger Waters is the poster child of this phenomenon of "lefties" and "pacifists" suddenly becoming authoritarian fascists/tankies when it comes to Russia/Ukraine. At absolute best, they are cowardly appeasers who should have learned from Chamberlain. At worst, they expose themselves as really not caring about tyranny and violence and genocide at all as long as the perpetrator is not friendly to the US.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Roger Waters is the poster child of this phenomenon of "lefties" and "pacifists" suddenly becoming authoritarian fascists/tankies when it comes to Russia/Ukraine. At absolute best, they are cowardly appeasers who should have learned from Chamberlain. At worst, they expose themselves as really not caring about tyranny and violence and genocide at all as long as the perpetrator is not friendly to the US.

As a someone who loves Pink Floyd it’s been a punch to the guy but the rest of the band has been really based on the issue

[Red Velvet]

What online environment are these Ukrainian Leftists frequenting?

From my experience it’s the exact opposite, Western Leftists mostly either joined the Liberals in their pro-war speech or were shamed into silence because everyone else was on a different page all acting it was unquestionable to support Ukraine.

There are few examples of Leftists in the West that kept an active dissent voice on this since the beginning. The Portuguese PCP (Portuguese Communist Party) comes to mind as one of these examples for me. But they were the exception, not the rule.

It was only after the Global South dissent, with Leftist voices from Latin America and Africa refusing to fall in line, that this slowwwwly started to change - The Western Leftist support for Ukraine has not ended but it certainly softed or became more questioned after it. Latin American leftists in special work as good bridge because of closer cultural connections.

Granted, many in the Western Left already HAD this in their minds before anyway, they just didn’t feel as empowered to talk about it or were shamed. Like I said, few exceptions were saying this stuff from the very beginning. The more they saw other Leftist voices having a different opinion, they they began shifting somewhat. And them new others get influenced by the shift in them as well.

Lula interview to Time in 2022 claiming both sides needed to work towards peace was the 1st moment I saw that opinion be voiced into the mainstream and it certainly took many liberals and most leftists who believed in a “consensus” by surprise, especially considering they all stan the hell out of him.

After that, little by little, it became more usual to see dissent opinions by the western left on the matter yeah. Though you can say the exact same thing about the conservatives, I guess war fatigue is the #1 effect, enthusiasm for it is always at its highest when it begins and basically EVERYONE acts like it’s prohibited to question military spending and war. Then once the shock goes away people just accept it as the “new normal” and start getting annoyed at it affecting stuff on their daily lives directly or indirectly and gradually lean towards a more “anti-war” approach. It’s always the exact same damn thing.

That being said, we’re clearly still in a context where western left still mostly supports Ukraine, that’s only been softened to some level. They better hold their horses because the trend is for that support to only weaken more and more. It’s just natural human behavior.

[Hindsight was 2020]

If Red Velvet going to keep insultingly insisting on calling people who support Ukraine “pro-war” it’s more than fair to said he’s “pro-genocide” considering he never shows any concern for the war crimes Russia commits in the occupied territories on Ukrainians

[Red Velvet]

If Red Velvet going to keep insultingly insisting on calling people who support Ukraine “pro-war” it’s more than fair to said he’s “pro-genocide” considering he never shows any concern for the war crimes Russia commits in the occupied territories on Ukrainians

Gurl, if you want Russia to become more liberal and democratic you will get that by making them join your club, NOT by pushing them more and more towards China.

It’s not an automatic thing but Russia WAS in a more liberal path in the 90s. Why do you think that didn’t work out?

[Hindsight was 2020]

If Red Velvet going to keep insultingly insisting on calling people who support Ukraine “pro-war” it’s more than fair to said he’s “pro-genocide” considering he never shows any concern for the war crimes Russia commits in the occupied territories on Ukrainians

Gurl, if you want Russia to become more liberal and democratic you will get that by making them join your club, NOT by pushing them more and more towards China.

It’s not an automatic thing but Russia WAS in a more liberal path in the 90s. Why do you think that didn’t work out?

So screwing over Ukraine and giving Russia territory they’re already committing war crimes in will magically make them more liberal and democratic? Wtf type of think is that

[PSOL]

The current political leadership of the United States, and the wider NATOsphere, makes it impossible for a real ceasefire to take place or be considered. On anti-war grounds the opposition here is based on the MIC first and foremost and lack of money to social programs.

The frustration that the Western Left is pro-Russia and not pro-Ukraine is itself a misnomer and not true. Many western Leftists are obviously not going to support a regime that engages in austerity policies that bids the country to foreign capitalists, is promoting fascist warlords, and engages in mass repression against Ukrainian leftists like the Kononovich Brothers who are apart of a communist party against the current invasion. Even so, many Left wing voices like the KKE and wider IMCWP have condemned the Russian invasion as of late and many from the start didn't want Russia to take Ukraine. Even among left-wingers here there was a general division, although most technically do support Ukraine in the US and among communists it is the same thing where most are for a free and independent Ukraine.

The sectarian attacks of the primarily social democratic, post-Trotskyist party are quite disappointing as parties as diverse as the Communist Party of India (Maoist) and the KKE oppose the invasion of Ukraine and many "Tankies" here and in Western Europe oppose the invasion and many of that subgroup correctly oppose Zelensky's regime as well. Many communists in Russia oppose and are actively fighting against Putin here.

If Red Velvet going to keep insultingly insisting on calling people who support Ukraine “pro-war” it’s more than fair to said he’s “pro-genocide” considering he never shows any concern for the war crimes Russia commits in the occupied territories on Ukrainians

Gurl, if you want Russia to become more liberal and democratic you will get that by making them join your club, NOT by pushing them more and more towards China.

It’s not an automatic thing but Russia WAS in a more liberal path in the 90s. Why do you think that didn’t work out?

Russia was never democratic, and having awful butchers like the chronic drunk and Putin be in charge has only led to the country's ruin. Of course, both were seen and promoted by the west as more acceptable options than Russian nazis or the CPSU/CPRF.

[Sol]

Gurl, if you want Russia to become more liberal and democratic you will get that by making them join your club, NOT by pushing them more and more towards China.

It’s not an automatic thing but Russia WAS in a more liberal path in the 90s. Why do you think that didn’t work out?

This is not even wrong--the "West" should have absolutely disbanded NATO in the early 90s, certainly after the Dayton Agreement, and failing that should have aggressively included Russia.

That said, that mistake is one which unfortunately occurred 30 years ago. There's no point in trying to include Russia when they're trying to engage in a genocidal war of conquest.

[All Along The Watchtower]

“Global South” is hardly a meaningful term.

[TheTide]

The lefties who defended and defend the Russian invasion are, I'm pretty sure, happy when the word 'lefties' or 'the left' is used in this way, as it implies that their views are mainstream amongst the left, which they aren't.

In a way it's a similar phenomenon to those who spend a lot of time debunking Flat Earthers. The main thing it achieves is giving Flat Earthers attention, which they desire more than anything else.

[MABA 2020]

Most of the the Western Left has the right position on Ukraine, it's only a minority of idiots who can't see anything outside of the perspective of west=imperialism and there for anyone who's against the west must be anti-imperialist=good.

Most of the Ukraine scepticism in the US is on the right anyway.

[CumbrianLefty]

Roger Waters is the poster child of this phenomenon of "lefties" and "pacifists" suddenly becoming authoritarian fascists/tankies when it comes to Russia/Ukraine. At absolute best, they are cowardly appeasers who should have learned from Chamberlain. At worst, they expose themselves as really not caring about tyranny and violence and genocide at all as long as the perpetrator is not friendly to the US.

As a someone who loves Pink Floyd it’s been a punch to the guy but the rest of the band has been really based on the issue

Waters has always been a strange man, though.

Don't forget, it was he who voted Tory at the 2005 GE as a protest after Labour banned hunting.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

The part of this that matters is the "Ukrainian" part of "Ukrainian Socialists". The latter share the supermajority sentiments of the population that the Kremlin's talking points are, plainly, bunk.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

"Tankies" are annoying but have zero representation in government and certainly zero influence on policy direction in America or almost any other Western country. The most conservative Democrat in Congress is deeply embedded with the genocidal Azeri regime--why not pick on him?

[Landslide Lyndon]

Our communist party while ostensibly condemns the Russian invasion it also never misses a chance to call Zelensky a "Nazi" and a "puppet of the West", and his government a "fascist regime".
SYRIZA is more ambivalent but has also adopted tankie rhetoric about "peace at all costs" and condemned the government because it gave to Ukraine some obsolete weapons that were about to be phased out from our military.

These people are still bitter because they lost the Cold War and in Putin they see somebody who will humble the West (the enemy of my enemy is my friend).

[SWE]

Roger Waters is the poster child of this phenomenon of "lefties" and "pacifists" suddenly becoming authoritarian fascists/tankies when it comes to Russia/Ukraine. At absolute best, they are cowardly appeasers who should have learned from Chamberlain.

If you ever decide to waste your time debating these types, you'll find they seem utterly convinced Neville Chamberlain is considered a hero in the west, because one of their favorite arguments in favor of the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact is that they'll assume anyone who is against Stalin jointly invading Poland with Hitler thinks it was a good idea to hand the Sudetland to Hitler

[DavidB.]

This isn't surprising. The Western radical left has a terminal hatred for the West and loves every power that opposes the West.

It could have been worse, though. Imagine Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn on the UN Security Council.

[CumbrianLefty]

Sorry to be a pedant, but it is the UK ambassador to the UN who is actually "on the Security Council".

(regardless of PM)

[DavidB.]

Sorry to be a pedant, but it is the UK ambassador to the UN who is actually "on the Security Council".

(regardless of PM)

I assume everyone on this forum knows this, so indeed a very pedantic comment. It was shorthand for "an ambassador following the orders of ...". If we're going to have to write as literally as you demand, we will need a lot more words on this forum and a lot less clear writing. Next thing you know you cannot write a PM is in "the driver's seat", because actually he's not in a car but in the PM office!

[GoTfan]

Any socialist who supports Russia should reconsider their socialist beliefs.

[CumbrianLefty]

Sorry to be a pedant, but it is the UK ambassador to the UN who is actually "on the Security Council".

(regardless of PM)

I assume everyone on this forum knows this, so indeed a very pedantic comment. It was shorthand for "an ambassador following the orders of ...". If we're going to have to write as literally as you demand, we will need a lot more words on this forum and a lot less clear writing. Next thing you know you cannot write a PM is in "the driver's seat", because actually he's not in a car but in the PM office!

Yes it was a highly pedantic comment, and deliberately so

But there may be a grain of relevance to it on this occasion, nonetheless. An incoming PM Corbyn was likely to face significant resistance to his foreign policy in particular, especially if it was (as was all too depressingly plausible) basically designed by Seumas Milne.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Realistically it's the kind of event that would almost certainly have led to the fall of a hypothetical Corbyn government, especially as he would never have won a majority or had the full support of a majority of his own parliamentary party. Of course, that's assuming that such a government could have made it though the Covid pandemic, which is also a bit questionable.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

If Red Velvet going to keep insultingly insisting on calling people who support Ukraine “pro-war” it’s more than fair to said he’s “pro-genocide” considering he never shows any concern for the war crimes Russia commits in the occupied territories on Ukrainians

Gurl, if you want Russia to become more liberal and democratic you will get that by making them join your club, NOT by pushing them more and more towards China.

It’s not an automatic thing but Russia WAS in a more liberal path in the 90s. Why do you think that didn’t work out?

So screwing over Ukraine and giving Russia territory they’re already committing war crimes in will magically make them more liberal and democratic? Wtf type of think is that

Lol you must have slept through the WW2 portion of your high school history class. Germany used to be a revanchist dictatorship and wanted to take over foreign lands with significant ethnic German populations. The hero of that war, Neville Chamberlin, de-escalated tensions by appeasing said revanchist regime and letting them have some of the lands, so they wouldn't try for all. And that's what happened, and Germany became a democracy ten years later. What makes you think Russia wouldn't go the same peaceful path after a bit of appeasement? Some people never learn from history I guess

[LAKISYLVANIA]

These people are FFs.