If Crimea had a fair referendum in 2014 what percent of the vote would joining Russia have recieved?

[BigSerg]

Even by your own sources, you are more or less admitting indirectly that Donbas and Luhansk would NOT vote to be in Russia. And yet you support the genocide there…

Before Maiden? I have no problem admitting it, after that, it's pretty obvious that most wanted to integrate into Russia, especially after 8 years of war, where both sides were killing each other and propaganda was doing its job. You had giant screens in the streets of Donbass broadcasting how Poroshenko was literally advocating genocide.

See you can’t make this stuff up! Donbas and Luhansk should be free from Ukraine because Russian propaganda is working!

"See you can’t make this stuff up!"

“And we win together by means of peace! Because we have jobs, and they have not. We have pensions, and they have not. We have support of children and pensioners, they have not. Our children would go to kindergartens and schools, theirs would be sitting in cellars. Because they do not know anything how to do! That’s how we are going to win this war. Because wars are won in minds, and not on the combat fields! They do not know this, but I know. And I have your support, I need it very much in order we win this war without perished Ukrainians, without perished inhabitants of Odesa.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr0TUpyPOJg&t=3030s

[OSR stands with Israel]

Obvious troll, says obvious nonsense. The 1991 referendum was not a question of joining Russia or not, it was a scam concocted by the Western puppet government in which there was no option to join Russia.

Which Ukrainian officials, exactly, were part of this ‘Western Puppet Government’? The Communist Party of Ukraine maintained a 3/4ths majority in the Supreme Soviet of the Ukrainian SSR prior to and during the referendum in 1991. Kravchuk himself had been a member of the Communist Party of Ukraine since 1958. When during that time was a Western puppet regime installed?

And by which westerners? George H.W. Bush had made very clear his position on Ukrainian secession from the USSR - he was not a fan!

Wait what

[It’s so Joever]

Even by your own sources, you are more or less admitting indirectly that Donbas and Luhansk would NOT vote to be in Russia. And yet you support the genocide there…

Before Maiden? I have no problem admitting it, after that, it's pretty obvious that most wanted to integrate into Russia, especially after 8 years of war, where both sides were killing each other and propaganda was doing its job. You had giant screens in the streets of Donbass broadcasting how Poroshenko was literally advocating genocide.

See you can’t make this stuff up! Donbas and Luhansk should be free from Ukraine because Russian propaganda is working!

"See you can’t make this stuff up!"

“And we win together by means of peace! Because we have jobs, and they have not. We have pensions, and they have not. We have support of children and pensioners, they have not. Our children would go to kindergartens and schools, theirs would be sitting in cellars. Because they do not know anything how to do! That’s how we are going to win this war. Because wars are won in minds, and not on the combat fields! They do not know this, but I know. And I have your support, I need it very much in order we win this war without perished Ukrainians, without perished inhabitants of Odesa.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr0TUpyPOJg&t=3030s

So you support unwarranted invasions, genocide, and brainwashing? Good to know, time to finish what Polk started! Better move to Guatemala!

[KaiserDave]

This Poroshenko quote is oft repeated in Russian propaganda, these people are very repetitive and unoriginal. It's pretty obvious to a reasonable observer Poroshenko is not calling for a mass killing of the population of the Donbas, he's making the case that the positive development of Ukraine in contrast with the ongoing conflict there will move the people of Donbas towards reconciliation with Kyiv.

[BigSerg]

Even by your own sources, you are more or less admitting indirectly that Donbas and Luhansk would NOT vote to be in Russia. And yet you support the genocide there…

Before Maiden? I have no problem admitting it, after that, it's pretty obvious that most wanted to integrate into Russia, especially after 8 years of war, where both sides were killing each other and propaganda was doing its job. You had giant screens in the streets of Donbass broadcasting how Poroshenko was literally advocating genocide.

See you can’t make this stuff up! Donbas and Luhansk should be free from Ukraine because Russian propaganda is working!

"See you can’t make this stuff up!"

“And we win together by means of peace! Because we have jobs, and they have not. We have pensions, and they have not. We have support of children and pensioners, they have not. Our children would go to kindergartens and schools, theirs would be sitting in cellars. Because they do not know anything how to do! That’s how we are going to win this war. Because wars are won in minds, and not on the combat fields! They do not know this, but I know. And I have your support, I need it very much in order we win this war without perished Ukrainians, without perished inhabitants of Odesa.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr0TUpyPOJg&t=3030s

So you support unwarranted invasions, genocide, and brainwashing? Good to know, time to finish what Polk started! Better move to Guatemala!

*running out of argument, proceeds to spout verbiage

[KaiserDave]

Obvious troll, says obvious nonsense. The 1991 referendum was not a question of joining Russia or not, it was a scam concocted by the Western puppet government in which there was no option to join Russia.

Which Ukrainian officials, exactly, were part of this ‘Western Puppet Government’? The Communist Party of Ukraine maintained a 3/4ths majority in the Supreme Soviet of the Ukrainian SSR prior to and during the referendum in 1991. Kravchuk himself had been a member of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union since 1958. When during that time was a Western puppet regime installed?

And what would an "option to join Russia" even mean in this case? The referendum asked the public they supported the act of independence, it is very easy for one to simply say no.

[BigSerg]

This Poroshenko quote is oft repeated in Russian propaganda, these people are very repetitive and unoriginal. It's pretty obvious to a reasonable observer Poroshenko is not calling for a mass killing of the population of the Donbas, he's making the case that the positive development of Ukraine in contrast with the ongoing conflict there will move the people of Donbas towards reconciliation with Kyiv.

But he didn't mean that! *proceed to say that I have said that I advocate genocide, that I have wished death on others, that I lie, etc....

[It’s so Joever]

Even by your own sources, you are more or less admitting indirectly that Donbas and Luhansk would NOT vote to be in Russia. And yet you support the genocide there…

Before Maiden? I have no problem admitting it, after that, it's pretty obvious that most wanted to integrate into Russia, especially after 8 years of war, where both sides were killing each other and propaganda was doing its job. You had giant screens in the streets of Donbass broadcasting how Poroshenko was literally advocating genocide.

See you can’t make this stuff up! Donbas and Luhansk should be free from Ukraine because Russian propaganda is working!

"See you can’t make this stuff up!"

“And we win together by means of peace! Because we have jobs, and they have not. We have pensions, and they have not. We have support of children and pensioners, they have not. Our children would go to kindergartens and schools, theirs would be sitting in cellars. Because they do not know anything how to do! That’s how we are going to win this war. Because wars are won in minds, and not on the combat fields! They do not know this, but I know. And I have your support, I need it very much in order we win this war without perished Ukrainians, without perished inhabitants of Odesa.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr0TUpyPOJg&t=3030s

So you support unwarranted invasions, genocide, and brainwashing? Good to know, time to finish what Polk started! Better move to Guatemala!

*running out of argument, proceeds to spout verbiage

I’m just using your own logic.
“As long as we brainwash and deport enough people after we invade, it’s okay!”

[KaiserDave]

This Poroshenko quote is oft repeated in Russian propaganda, these people are very repetitive and unoriginal. It's pretty obvious to a reasonable observer Poroshenko is not calling for a mass killing of the population of the Donbas, he's making the case that the positive development of Ukraine in contrast with the ongoing conflict there will move the people of Donbas towards reconciliation with Kyiv.

But he didn't mean that! *proceed to say that I have said that I advocate genocide, that I have wished death on others, that I lie, etc....

I never said he didn't mean what he said. He very clearly did you're just the one lying about what's being said....

And yes you do all those things all the time, you are a liar and a genocide denier.

[BigSerg]

Even by your own sources, you are more or less admitting indirectly that Donbas and Luhansk would NOT vote to be in Russia. And yet you support the genocide there…

Before Maiden? I have no problem admitting it, after that, it's pretty obvious that most wanted to integrate into Russia, especially after 8 years of war, where both sides were killing each other and propaganda was doing its job. You had giant screens in the streets of Donbass broadcasting how Poroshenko was literally advocating genocide.

See you can’t make this stuff up! Donbas and Luhansk should be free from Ukraine because Russian propaganda is working!

"See you can’t make this stuff up!"

“And we win together by means of peace! Because we have jobs, and they have not. We have pensions, and they have not. We have support of children and pensioners, they have not. Our children would go to kindergartens and schools, theirs would be sitting in cellars. Because they do not know anything how to do! That’s how we are going to win this war. Because wars are won in minds, and not on the combat fields! They do not know this, but I know. And I have your support, I need it very much in order we win this war without perished Ukrainians, without perished inhabitants of Odesa.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr0TUpyPOJg&t=3030s

So you support unwarranted invasions, genocide, and brainwashing? Good to know, time to finish what Polk started! Better move to Guatemala!

*running out of argument, proceeds to spout verbiage

I’m just using your own logic.
“As long as we brainwash and deport enough people after we invade, it’s okay!”

[BigSerg]

This Poroshenko quote is oft repeated in Russian propaganda, these people are very repetitive and unoriginal. It's pretty obvious to a reasonable observer Poroshenko is not calling for a mass killing of the population of the Donbas, he's making the case that the positive development of Ukraine in contrast with the ongoing conflict there will move the people of Donbas towards reconciliation with Kyiv.

But he didn't mean that! *proceed to say that I have said that I advocate genocide, that I have wished death on others, that I lie, etc....

I never said he didn't mean what he said. He very clearly did you're just the one lying about what's being said....

And yes you do all those things all the time, you are a liar and a genocide denier.

[KaiserDave]

This Poroshenko quote is oft repeated in Russian propaganda, these people are very repetitive and unoriginal. It's pretty obvious to a reasonable observer Poroshenko is not calling for a mass killing of the population of the Donbas, he's making the case that the positive development of Ukraine in contrast with the ongoing conflict there will move the people of Donbas towards reconciliation with Kyiv.

But he didn't mean that! *proceed to say that I have said that I advocate genocide, that I have wished death on others, that I lie, etc....

I never said he didn't mean what he said. He very clearly did you're just the one lying about what's being said....

And yes you do all those things all the time, you are a liar and a genocide denier.

My bad...I am sorry.

Genocide advocate.

[It’s so Joever]

Even by your own sources, you are more or less admitting indirectly that Donbas and Luhansk would NOT vote to be in Russia. And yet you support the genocide there…

Before Maiden? I have no problem admitting it, after that, it's pretty obvious that most wanted to integrate into Russia, especially after 8 years of war, where both sides were killing each other and propaganda was doing its job. You had giant screens in the streets of Donbass broadcasting how Poroshenko was literally advocating genocide.

See you can’t make this stuff up! Donbas and Luhansk should be free from Ukraine because Russian propaganda is working!

"See you can’t make this stuff up!"

“And we win together by means of peace! Because we have jobs, and they have not. We have pensions, and they have not. We have support of children and pensioners, they have not. Our children would go to kindergartens and schools, theirs would be sitting in cellars. Because they do not know anything how to do! That’s how we are going to win this war. Because wars are won in minds, and not on the combat fields! They do not know this, but I know. And I have your support, I need it very much in order we win this war without perished Ukrainians, without perished inhabitants of Odesa.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr0TUpyPOJg&t=3030s

So you support unwarranted invasions, genocide, and brainwashing? Good to know, time to finish what Polk started! Better move to Guatemala!

*running out of argument, proceeds to spout verbiage

I’m just using your own logic.
“As long as we brainwash and deport enough people after we invade, it’s okay!”

Do…do you not understand the difference between finding refuge and forced deportation?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Even by your own sources, you are more or less admitting indirectly that Donbas and Luhansk would NOT vote to be in Russia. And yet you support the genocide there…

Before Maiden? I have no problem admitting it, after that, it's pretty obvious that most wanted to integrate into Russia, especially after 8 years of war, where both sides were killing each other and propaganda was doing its job. You had giant screens in the streets of Donbass broadcasting how Poroshenko was literally advocating genocide.

See you can’t make this stuff up! Donbas and Luhansk should be free from Ukraine because Russian propaganda is working!

"See you can’t make this stuff up!"

“And we win together by means of peace! Because we have jobs, and they have not. We have pensions, and they have not. We have support of children and pensioners, they have not. Our children would go to kindergartens and schools, theirs would be sitting in cellars. Because they do not know anything how to do! That’s how we are going to win this war. Because wars are won in minds, and not on the combat fields! They do not know this, but I know. And I have your support, I need it very much in order we win this war without perished Ukrainians, without perished inhabitants of Odesa.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr0TUpyPOJg&t=3030s

So you support unwarranted invasions, genocide, and brainwashing? Good to know, time to finish what Polk started! Better move to Guatemala!

*running out of argument, proceeds to spout verbiage

I’m just using your own logic.
“As long as we brainwash and deport enough people after we invade, it’s okay!”

It seems roughly 1/4 of Ukrainian refugees have found refuge in Russia. It would be interesting to see how they are doing. Both as individuals and as a group. Like what are they doing to survive, how are they coping with changing circumstances etc.

[BigSerg]

Even by your own sources, you are more or less admitting indirectly that Donbas and Luhansk would NOT vote to be in Russia. And yet you support the genocide there…

Before Maiden? I have no problem admitting it, after that, it's pretty obvious that most wanted to integrate into Russia, especially after 8 years of war, where both sides were killing each other and propaganda was doing its job. You had giant screens in the streets of Donbass broadcasting how Poroshenko was literally advocating genocide.

See you can’t make this stuff up! Donbas and Luhansk should be free from Ukraine because Russian propaganda is working!

"See you can’t make this stuff up!"

“And we win together by means of peace! Because we have jobs, and they have not. We have pensions, and they have not. We have support of children and pensioners, they have not. Our children would go to kindergartens and schools, theirs would be sitting in cellars. Because they do not know anything how to do! That’s how we are going to win this war. Because wars are won in minds, and not on the combat fields! They do not know this, but I know. And I have your support, I need it very much in order we win this war without perished Ukrainians, without perished inhabitants of Odesa.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr0TUpyPOJg&t=3030s

So you support unwarranted invasions, genocide, and brainwashing? Good to know, time to finish what Polk started! Better move to Guatemala!

*running out of argument, proceeds to spout verbiage

I’m just using your own logic.
“As long as we brainwash and deport enough people after we invade, it’s okay!”

It seems roughly 1/4 of Ukrainian refugees have found refuge in Russia. It would be interesting to see how they are doing. Both as individuals and as a group. Like what are they doing to survive, how are they coping with changing circumstances etc.

In reality, this percentage is increasing rapidly. Ukrainian refugees in Europe are being deported because, unlike Russia, Ukraine has been in general mobilization for more than a year. On social media you can see how Ukrainians are complaining because they are receiving mandatory summonses. This means that they are calling as many civilians as they can to go to the front. In Russia, on the contrary, there has only been a partial mobilization and only of those enlisted in military service.

https://news.yahoo.com/categories-men-returned-ukraine-abroad-124900860.html

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

In reality, this percentage is increasing rapidly. Ukrainian refugees in Europe are being deported because, unlike Russia, Ukraine has been in general mobilization for more than a year. On social media you can see how Ukrainians are complaining because they are receiving mandatory summonses. This means that they are calling as many civilians as they can to go to the front. In Russia, on the contrary, there has only been a partial mobilization and only of those enlisted in military service.

If Russia has a reputation as a place that does not conscript Ukrainians, that would meaningfully increase the percentage of those self-selecting for Russia (and this is also boosted by Putin's Russia having very liberal immigration policies). But there's also probably another angle to this. Someone who hates what Russia's policies towards Ukraine in the past eight years and still feels a need to leave probably is not headed for Russia unless they have no other realistically feasible options.
I'm also a bit surprised that more haven't just fled to Belarus.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

In reality, this percentage is increasing rapidly. Ukrainian refugees in Europe are being deported because, unlike Russia, Ukraine has been in general mobilization for more than a year. On social media you can see how Ukrainians are complaining because they are receiving mandatory summonses. This means that they are calling as many civilians as they can to go to the front. In Russia, on the contrary, there has only been a partial mobilization and only of those enlisted in military service.

If Russia has a reputation as a place that does not conscript Ukrainians, that would meaningfully increase the percentage of those self-selecting for Russia (and this is also boosted by Putin's Russia having very liberal immigration policies).

It does not. Of course Russia is conscripting Ukrainians - it considers them Russian! Only weird Western grifters pretend otherwise.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

In reality, this percentage is increasing rapidly. Ukrainian refugees in Europe are being deported because, unlike Russia, Ukraine has been in general mobilization for more than a year. On social media you can see how Ukrainians are complaining because they are receiving mandatory summonses. This means that they are calling as many civilians as they can to go to the front. In Russia, on the contrary, there has only been a partial mobilization and only of those enlisted in military service.

If Russia has a reputation as a place that does not conscript Ukrainians, that would meaningfully increase the percentage of those self-selecting for Russia (and this is also boosted by Putin's Russia having very liberal immigration policies).

It does not. Of course Russia is conscripting Ukrainians - it considers them Russian! Only weird Western grifters pretend otherwise.

In regards to conscription, I was referring to Ukrainians from outside of the 4 oblasts that Russia has claimed. Also, my wording did not concern itself with how things actually were as much as things were seen as being. The article BigSerg linked mentioned a Ukrainian official saying the enemy is spreading propaganda implying Ukraine is forcibly summoning large numbers of people who have fled back into Ukraine, in fact.

[kelestian]

My guess is around 70% for Russia. Crimean Tatars would have voted against

[kelestian]

Even by your own sources, you are more or less admitting indirectly that Donbas and Luhansk would NOT vote to be in Russia. And yet you support the genocide there…

Before Maiden? I have no problem admitting it, after that, it's pretty obvious that most wanted to integrate into Russia, especially after 8 years of war, where both sides were killing each other and propaganda was doing its job. You had giant screens in the streets of Donbass broadcasting how Poroshenko was literally advocating genocide.

See you can’t make this stuff up! Donbas and Luhansk should be free from Ukraine because Russian propaganda is working!

"See you can’t make this stuff up!"

“And we win together by means of peace! Because we have jobs, and they have not. We have pensions, and they have not. We have support of children and pensioners, they have not. Our children would go to kindergartens and schools, theirs would be sitting in cellars. Because they do not know anything how to do! That’s how we are going to win this war. Because wars are won in minds, and not on the combat fields! They do not know this, but I know. And I have your support, I need it very much in order we win this war without perished Ukrainians, without perished inhabitants of Odesa.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr0TUpyPOJg&t=3030s

So you support unwarranted invasions, genocide, and brainwashing? Good to know, time to finish what Polk started! Better move to Guatemala!

*running out of argument, proceeds to spout verbiage

I’m just using your own logic.
“As long as we brainwash and deport enough people after we invade, it’s okay!”

It seems roughly 1/4 of Ukrainian refugees have found refuge in Russia. It would be interesting to see how they are doing. Both as individuals and as a group. Like what are they doing to survive, how are they coping with changing circumstances etc.

In reality, this percentage is increasing rapidly. Ukrainian refugees in Europe are being deported because, unlike Russia, Ukraine has been in general mobilization for more than a year. On social media you can see how Ukrainians are complaining because they are receiving mandatory summonses. This means that they are calling as many civilians as they can to go to the front. In Russia, on the contrary, there has only been a partial mobilization and only of those enlisted in military service.

https://news.yahoo.com/categories-men-returned-ukraine-abroad-124900860.html

Isn't "mandatory summons abroad in social media" just one fake picture from Ireland?

[CumbrianLefty]

My guess is around 70% for Russia. Crimean Tatars would have voted against

That seems a bit high for me - local Ukrainians would surely have been significantly if not massively opposed. I do accept that Russians would have been overwhelmingly in favour.

[EastAnglianLefty]

A significant number of the "refugees" in Russia would more accurately be described as kidnap victims.

[kelestian]

My guess is around 70% for Russia. Crimean Tatars would have voted against

That seems a bit high for me - local Ukrainians would surely have been significantly if not massively opposed. I do accept that Russians would have been overwhelmingly in favour.

Some of self-identified Ukrainians would vote for Russia, for sure. Perhaps now they identify as Russians, fully. There is of course Ukrainian ethinc core, around 15-20 percent, who registered as Ukrainians after 2014 in population censuses.

Maybe like 60-70% pro-Russia, I can't see it go lower than 60%

[Stranger in a strange land]

A significant number of the "refugees" in Russia would more accurately be described as kidnap victims.

A lot of them also evacuated through Russia after their towns were overrun by the Russian Army during the early days of the war, and from there to other countries.