Opinion of Messianic Jews

[Samof94]

Messianic Jews are people like Jews for Jesus who somehow both believe that Jewish law is relevant and that Jesus is the Messiah.

[Aurelius2]

Baptists pretending to be "Jews" in an attempt to convert us.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I do kind of feel bad for them. They're betwixt and between. Jews don't like them. Christians don't like them.

I don't like them either. I would have voted HP hands-down if this had been a normal poll.

[Samof94]

Baptists pretending to be "Jews" in an attempt to convert us.

Israel does not recognize them as Jewish.

[RINO Tom]

Fascinating.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I guess technically Christian supposing they affirm the Trinity, though keeping the Law de facto denies the saving work of Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection.

[LabourJersey]

Fascinating.

I'd agree with that. Don't have a strong opinion on them but am fascinated by their theology and the sheer size of the flock they've managed to attract.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

I have no ill will at all towards Messianic Jews.  There's nothing inherently wrong about still following the Old Testament Law.  They recognize that they can't earn their Salvation and believe that Salvation comes from faith in Christ alone.

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.  I pray that all Jewish people would see that and become Messianic.

To answer the question in the poll, they are both Christians and Jews.  (But, I believe that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, something that I imagine many will disagree with me about)

[Aurelius2]

I do kind of feel bad for them. They're betwixt and between. Jews don't like them. Christians don't like them.

I sort of feel this way of Jews who, of their own volition, choose to become Christian.

However, I have nothing but contempt for the Baptists and other evangelicals who cosplay as "grafted in" """Jews""" in a deceptive attempt to convert Jews to their religion.

Surveys suggest that in most Messianic movements the latter make up 90-95% of the membership. I am sure there are congregations of actual Hebrew Christians somewhere without the "grafted in" nonsense. If so, I don't have contempt for them, I just think they are deeply misguided. I have no quarrel with the Hebrew Christians themselves, only the gentiles who use deceptive means.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I do kind of feel bad for them. They're betwixt and between. Jews don't like them. Christians don't like them.

I sort of feel this way of Jews who, of their own volition, choose to become Christian.

However, I have nothing but contempt for the Baptists and other evangelicals who cosplay as "grafted in" """Jews""" in a deceptive attempt to convert Jews to their religion.

Surveys suggest that in most Messianic movements the latter make up 90-95% of the membership. I am sure there are congregations of actual Hebrew Christians somewhere without the "grafted in" nonsense. If so, I don't have contempt for them, I just think they are deeply misguided.

     While I don't know how large his parish is, there's an Orthodox priest in Israel who is a Jewish convert and serves the divine liturgy in Hebrew. Given that most Orthodox Christians in Israel are Palestinians (and thus have poor relations with Jews), I doubt he attracts many of these "cosplayers" as you put it.

[RINO Tom]

     I guess technically Christian supposing they affirm the Trinity, though keeping the Law de facto denies the saving work of Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection.

Not to hijack the thread, but I have recently become fascinated with how different people define "Christian."  Even more academically-minded or "neutral" definitions might call Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses or whatever a "different religion," and yet they'd have no problem labeling the early followers of Arius as "Arian Christians" and describing the Germanic tribes that came to adopt the teachings of Arius as "converting to Christianity."

It has really led me to believe that any definition of "Christian" should probably include groups that are heretical ... otherwise, you cannot be a heretical Christian.  Nobody calls a Buddhist a "heretic," because he is simply just of another religion.  "Heretic" should be reserved for someone who is in some sense Christian but rejects a fundamentally essential teaching of (lower case) orthodox Christianity.  In other words, while I definitely think anyone who rejects the Trinity is a heretic, I'm not sure it's the best cutoff for being a Christian.  If I were doing an academic study, I would probably place the cutoff at some vague definition of affirming the Resurrection and being a "follower of Jesus."  So, Messianic Jews would definitely count for me, as would Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarians and even Mormons (though all three should be labeled as heretical and fringe).

[RINO Tom]

Back on topic, though, I would like to say that I do think they'd do better to refer to themselves as like "Old Testament Christians" or something.  As the absolutely great YouTuber Matt Baker of Useful Charts (who is Jewish) said, Jewish identity has indeed developed to pretty clearly exclude a coexisting Christian identity.  In other words, in the world of the last 2,000 years, being a "Jew" carries with it the explicit denial that Jesus was the Messiah ... that's kind of a key point.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

Christ is a mortal man just like Moses was and was buried in an Ossuary Box that's why his Toom was empty
 The bones disintegrated but they found James his brother Ossuary box that had James Son of Joseph.

They actually found his crucifix bones that had the nail in the ankle not straight thru feet. There were more ways to crucify People Spartacus was crucified in Europe and nailed thru feet, the Romans wanted Jews to suffer so they nailed it thru ankle, but you can believe what you want that was during Biblical times where it was hard to write down historical Data

But, in Buddhism, we learn that Prophets can have supernatural powers but that doesn't mean they weren't mortals, because miracles happen unless there is a Rapture

[ꙮ]

Is there any connection between the Jewish Christians of the first few centuries AD and modern day Messianic Jews? It was my impression that Christians who kept the Jewish laws and traditions were very common at the beginning (All of the apostles as well as James the Just would qualify) but more or less died out by around 600 AD.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Is there any connection between the Jewish Christians of the first few centuries AD and modern day Messianic Jews? It was my impression that Christians who kept the Jewish laws and traditions were very common at the beginning (All of the apostles as well as James the Just would qualify) but more or less died out by around 600 AD.

No connection at all. The living descendants of those communities are mostly just normal Arab/Levantine Christians now.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Baptists pretending to be "Jews" in an attempt to convert us.

It's funny, I'm currently in a heated argument in a Bob Dylan facebook group about this very subject. Some Jewish guys are basically throwing themselves into a frenzy because I identified Bob as being a "messianic Jew." It ended with me being accused of Goy-splaining.

[LabourJersey]

Baptists pretending to be "Jews" in an attempt to convert us.

It's funny, I'm currently in a heated argument in a Bob Dylan facebook group about this very subject. Some Jewish guys are basically throwing themselves into a frenzy because I identified Bob as being a "messianic Jew." It ended with me being accused of Goy-splaining.

That's not true, though?

My understanding is that Dylan was a convert from Judaism to conventional Christianity, and then de-converted (partially). Messianic Judaism is a distinct group and theology from normal Christianity and from normal Judaism.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Baptists pretending to be "Jews" in an attempt to convert us.

It's funny, I'm currently in a heated argument in a Bob Dylan facebook group about this very subject. Some Jewish guys are basically throwing themselves into a frenzy because I identified Bob as being a "messianic Jew." It ended with me being accused of Goy-splaining.

That's not true, though?

My understanding is that Dylan was a convert from Judaism to conventional Christianity, and then de-converted (partially). Messianic Judaism is a distinct group and theology from normal Christianity and from normal Judaism.

I agree with you, but I don't think Sanchez's description is straightforwardly wrong enough that I'd argue with him about it on Facebook.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Baptists pretending to be "Jews" in an attempt to convert us.

It's funny, I'm currently in a heated argument in a Bob Dylan facebook group about this very subject. Some Jewish guys are basically throwing themselves into a frenzy because I identified Bob as being a "messianic Jew." It ended with me being accused of Goy-splaining.

That's not true, though?

My understanding is that Dylan was a convert from Judaism to conventional Christianity, and then de-converted (partially). Messianic Judaism is a distinct group and theology from normal Christianity and from normal Judaism.

I agree with you, but I don't think Sanchez's description is straightforwardly wrong enough that I'd argue with him about it on Facebook.

Dylan identified as a Christian as recently as 2022, but was characteristically vague enough about it to leave it open to interpretation.

[pbrower2a]

I have no ill will at all towards Messianic Jews.  There's nothing inherently wrong about still following the Old Testament Law.  They recognize that they can't earn their Salvation and believe that Salvation comes from faith in Christ alone.

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.  I pray that all Jewish people would see that and become Messianic.

To answer the question in the poll, they are both Christians and Jews.  (But, I believe that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, something that I imagine many will disagree with me about)

In view of the behavior that I have seen among Jews and Christians, I find that Christians have a far worse record. There was no Crusade or Inquisition by Jews, Jews did not instigate the pogroms and the Holocaust that have soiled Christian "civilization".

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

I have no ill will at all towards Messianic Jews.  There's nothing inherently wrong about still following the Old Testament Law.  They recognize that they can't earn their Salvation and believe that Salvation comes from faith in Christ alone.

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.  I pray that all Jewish people would see that and become Messianic.

To answer the question in the poll, they are both Christians and Jews.  (But, I believe that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, something that I imagine many will disagree with me about)

This is the truth. Also, I married one

[Reactionary Libertarian]

They are just Christians.

[Alben Barkley]

Were Jesus himself and Paul and Peter and the other disciples not Jews because they believed Christ was the Messiah? Did Christianity not essentially start as a Jewish sect?

Today, and arguably even back then, Judaism is more defined as an ethnicity than as a religion. If secular Jews who are essentially atheists can be Jews, why can't those who profess to believe Christ was the Messiah?

After all, professing to have converted to Christianity did not save Jews from the Holocaust. Ultimately, it's clear that Jewish identity is something more than believing in certain religious ideas and certainly much more than just rejecting Christ.

[RINO Tom]

Were Jesus himself and Paul and Peter and the other disciples not Jews because they believed Christ was the Messiah? Did Christianity not essentially start as a Jewish sect?

Today, and arguably even back then, Judaism is more defined as an ethnicity than as a religion. If secular Jews who are essentially atheists can be Jews, why can't those who profess to believe Christ was the Messiah?

After all, professing to have converted to Christianity did not save Jews from the Holocaust. Ultimately, it's clear that Jewish identity is something more than believing in certain religious ideas and certainly much more than just rejecting Christ.

There is a very good YouTube channel called Useful Charts that has covered religious groups/denominations and their family trees before, and he is a Jewish convert (i.e., not ethnically Jewish), but his wife is both ethnically and religiously Jewish.  He described this in a way that I think is very articulate, and I agree with it:

Judaism is still essentially a tribe at its core.  And whatever you want to say about the dynamics of Late Antiquity, it is pretty undeniable that over the last 2,000 years the "Jewish identity" has evolved to have a meaning that more or less necessitates NOT being Christian.  If you are Christian, you have - in the eyes of 99% of Jews - "left the tribe."

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Were Jesus himself and Paul and Peter and the other disciples not Jews because they believed Christ was the Messiah? Did Christianity not essentially start as a Jewish sect?

Today, and arguably even back then, Judaism is more defined as an ethnicity than as a religion. If secular Jews who are essentially atheists can be Jews, why can't those who profess to believe Christ was the Messiah?

After all, professing to have converted to Christianity did not save Jews from the Holocaust. Ultimately, it's clear that Jewish identity is something more than believing in certain religious ideas and certainly much more than just rejecting Christ.

There is a very good YouTube channel called Useful Charts that has covered religious groups/denominations and their family trees before, and he is a Jewish convert (i.e., not ethnically Jewish), but his wife is both ethnically and religiously Jewish.  He described this in a way that I think is very articulate, and I agree with it:

Judaism is still essentially a tribe at its core.  And whatever you want to say about the dynamics of Late Antiquity, it is pretty undeniable that over the last 2,000 years the "Jewish identity" has evolved to have a meaning that more or less necessitates NOT being Christian.  If you are Christian, you have - in the eyes of 99% of Jews - "left the tribe."

This doesn't necessarily correlate with how "open" the person's preferred current of Judaism is otherwise, either. For example, an Orthodox posek would probably consider a Jewish convert to Christianity a heretical and idolatrous Jew but still a Jew, whereas Reform Judaism (forces within which formerly aspired to overhaul Judaism into something that was "just" a religion without any ethnic or national components) customarily rules anyone who converts to Christianity out of the category "Jew" entirely.

There's also a difference between a Jew who happens to convert to Christianity and "Messianic Judaism" in the strict sense, which Sanchez touched on. The term is most often used to mean a specific theological and liturgical style that retains elements of Jewish practice in what most people, especially most Jewish people, feel are unsettlingly recontextualized and revaluated ways; this is what he was arguing with the other Bob Dylan fans about on Facebook. Cardinal Lustiger was not a Messianic Jew.