Its Official...

[12th Doctor]

Tom Coburn (American Christian-Nazi Party - OK) is running for President

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/ap_on_go_co/gonzales_prosecutors

GOP senator calls for Gonzales to resign

WASHINGTON - Attorney General Alberto Gonzales struggled Thursday to convince skeptical senators he did nothing improper in firing eight federal prosecutors, losing ground as a second senator from his own party joined the calls for his resignation.
 
Republican as well as Democratic lawmakers challenged the embattled attorney general during an often-bitter five-hour hearing before the Judiciary Committee. Lawmakers confronted Gonzales with documents and sworn testimony they said showed he was more involved in the dismissals than he contended.

"The best way to put this behind us is your resignation," Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma bluntly told Gonzales, one conservative to another. Gonzales disagreed, rejecting the idea that his departure would put the controversy to rest.

Even with the White House offering fresh support, it was a long day for the attorney general. Seventy-one times he fell back on faulty memory, saying he could not recall or remember conversations or events surrounding the firings. During breaks in the hearing, sign-waving protesters rose from the audience calling for him to resign.

Digging in as the day wore on, Gonzales defended his decision last year to oust the U.S. attorneys. Congress is investigating whether the firings were politically motivated, which the Bush administration vehemently denies.

"The notion that there was something that was improper that happened here is simply not supported," Gonzales said, adding that he would make the same decisions again.

Late Thursday, Sen. Jeff Sessions (news, bio, voting record) said in a telephone interview that the Justice Department might be better served with new leadership. "I think it's going to be difficult for him to be an effective leader," said Sessions, a Republican member of the Judiciary Committee and former federal prosecutor.

"At this point, I think (Gonzales) should be given a chance to think it through and talk to the president about what his future should be," Sessions said, adding that he was most troubled by Gonzales' inability to recall attending a meeting at which the firings were discussed. Documents provided by the Justice Department show he was present at the Nov. 27, 2006, meeting.

Gonzales has provided differing versions of the events surrounding the dismissals, first saying he had almost no involvement and later acknowledging that his role was larger — but only after e-mails about meetings he attended were released by the Justice Department to House and Senate committees.

There was no doubt about the stakes involved for a member of        President Bush's inner circle, and support from fellow Republicans was critical to his attempt to hold his job.

Calling most of Gonzales' explanations for the firings "a stretch," Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham (news, bio, voting record) asked whether the dismissals simply came down to personality disagreements the Justice Department and White House had with the former prosecutors.

"You said something that struck me — that sometimes it just came down to these were not the right people at the right time," said Graham, R-S.C. "If I applied that standard to you, what would you say?"

Ignoring hoots of laughter from the protesters, Gonzales responded: "I believe that I continue to be effective as the attorney general of the United States. We've done some great things."

A number of Democrats have called for Gonzales to resign or be fired, but until Thursday John Sununu (news, bio, voting record) of New Hampshire was the only Republican senator to say so.

Bush spokesman Tony Fratto said at the White House that Gonzales "can be effective going forward."

"It's understandable that the senators have been frustrated by the way this decision was communicated and we fully expected that they would take this opportunity to express this frustration," Fratto said.

Gonzales also scrapped with Democrats, most notably committee chairman Sen. Patrick Leahy (news, bio, voting record) of Vermont and Charles E. Schumer of New York. Even soft-spoken Sen. Herb Kohl of Wisconsin chastised Gonzales for having "severely shaken the confidence of the American people."

"Would you explain to the American people why it is so important that you should remain in this office?" Kohl asked.

"The moment I believe I can no longer be effective, I will resign as attorney general," Gonzales responded, making it clear he had not reached that point.

Sen. Arlen Specter (news, bio, voting record) of Pennsylvania, top Republican on the panel, stopped short of calling for Gonzales to resign — a modest lifeline for the attorney general — even while questioning his credibility.

Specter said the attorney general's answers "did not stick together."

Senators ticked off evidence — based on department documents and testimony from two former senior Justice officials — that Gonzales participated in discussions about at least three of the fired prosecutors: Carol Lam in San Diego, Bud Cummins in Little Rock, Ark., and David Iglesias in New Mexico.

In Iglesias' case, Gonzales recalled an Oct. 11 conversation with Bush and White House political adviser Karl Rove about voter fraud concerns during which the prosecutor's name came up. "I now understand that there was a conversation between myself and the president," Gonzales said.

In an interview Thursday with The Associated Press, Iglesias said Gonzales has yet to point out a performance-related reason that justifies the firing. The reasons Gonzales has given "are political issues," Iglesias said. "I wish he would shoot straight with the American people."

Gonzales faced GOP as well as Democratic challenges to his credibility throughout the day.

Later, Sen. Charles Grassley (news, bio, voting record) of Iowa criticized Gonzales for now accepting responsibility for the firings after initially saying he had played only a minor role. "Why is your story changing?" Grassley asked.

In response, Gonzales replied that his earlier answers had been "overbroad," the result of inadequate preparation.

Gonzales maintained a stoic face through most of the hearing, pursing his lips at times, ignoring the protesters wearing orange garb and pink police costumes. The words "Arrest Gonzales" were duct-taped to their backs.

He said he made a "mistake I freely acknowledge" for taking a largely hands-off approach to the firings. But "at the end of the day I know I did not do anything improper."

Gonzales marched out of the hearing at its conclusion, shortly before 5 p.m., as protesters began singing "Hey, hey, goodbye" from the 1970s hit song by Steam.

[Smash255]

From his quote it seems like Coburn believes that Gonzales should resign as a way to stop any further investigation into the matter rather than resigning for his role in the whole debacle.

[CultureKing]

This whole scandal has just gotten me sick... If Bush fired Gonzales tomarrow my respect for Bush would jump, but I know that wont happen, the hearings will just continue as well as the Bush Administration stating that they have no knowledge of anything. This needs to be stopped before the executive branch is further damaged in terms of credibility.

[12th Doctor]

From his quote it seems like Coburn believes that Gonzales should resign as a way to stop any further investigation into the matter rather than resigning for his role in the whole debacle.

The fact that Coburn is so far to the Right on most issues leads me to believe that this is nothing but a political ploy on his part.

[??????????]

Coburn = Nazi? That's a little below you Soulty, don't ya think?

[DownWithTheLeft]

Wow, the part that troubles me is that Tom Coburn thinks Alberto Gonzales is a conservative.  There is a reason he wasn't chosen for the SCOTUS

[Ban my account ffs!]

I see it going more like this:

1)  Scandal erupts as media gets wind of it and reports it.

2)  Democrats call for resignation.

3)  Bush says "you're doin' great, Albie!"

4)  A small break from scandal coverage.

5)  Gonzales resigns for personal reasons to spend more time with family.

6)  Nothing is done to remedy the actual scandal and it goes cold.

7)  Bush nominates his first college roommate's brother-in-law to fill the post.

[CARLHAYDEN]

From his quote it seems like Coburn believes that Gonzales should resign as a way to stop any further investigation into the matter rather than resigning for his role in the whole debacle.

The fact that Coburn is so far to the Right on most issues leads me to believe that this is nothing but a political ploy on his part.

First, Coburn is a good guy.  Have you considered that YOU have gone so far out in extreme left field that You are out of touch with reality.

Second, Gonzalez is a scum bag and a lot of conservatives in Congress hate him for his efforts to avoid enforcing laws with respect to illegal aliens.

[Dr. Cynic]

From his quote it seems like Coburn believes that Gonzales should resign as a way to stop any further investigation into the matter rather than resigning for his role in the whole debacle.

The fact that Coburn is so far to the Right on most issues leads me to believe that this is nothing but a political ploy on his part.

First, Coburn is a good guy.  Have you considered that YOU have gone so far out in extreme left field that You are out of touch with reality.

Second, Gonzalez is a scum bag and a lot of conservatives in Congress hate him for his efforts to avoid enforcing laws with respect to illegal aliens.

Well Carl, reality is open to perception... Being far left and far right depends upon how the person looks at it. To me, you are so far right that you are bat-sh*t crazy, but does that mean my view of you would stack up the same as say States?... I doubt States thinks you are far right, because he is conservative, himself.

I also love your little covert style "illegal alien" addition... Once again you prove your near one track mind... Clearly, there are more important issues... Why don't you focus your energies on say... I don't know... Making arguements against abortion or something for awhile...

[??????????]

From his quote it seems like Coburn believes that Gonzales should resign as a way to stop any further investigation into the matter rather than resigning for his role in the whole debacle.

The fact that Coburn is so far to the Right on most issues leads me to believe that this is nothing but a political ploy on his part.

First, Coburn is a good guy.  Have you considered that YOU have gone so far out in extreme left field that You are out of touch with reality.

Second, Gonzalez is a scum bag and a lot of conservatives in Congress hate him for his efforts to avoid enforcing laws with respect to illegal aliens.

Well Carl, reality is open to perception... Being far left and far right depends upon how the person looks at it. To me, you are so far right that you are bat-sh*t crazy, but does that mean my view of you would stack up the same as say States?... I doubt States thinks you are far right, because he is conservative, himself.

I also love your little covert style "illegal alien" addition... Once again you prove your near one track mind... Clearly, there are more important issues... Why don't you focus your energies on say... I don't know... Making arguements against abortion or something for awhile...

Why, their is no reason individuals here can't be "one issue" members. It's not as if they are political candidates. And I agree with Carl, illegal immigration is probably one of the most important issues of our day.

[CARLHAYDEN]

From his quote it seems like Coburn believes that Gonzales should resign as a way to stop any further investigation into the matter rather than resigning for his role in the whole debacle.

The fact that Coburn is so far to the Right on most issues leads me to believe that this is nothing but a political ploy on his part.

First, Coburn is a good guy.  Have you considered that YOU have gone so far out in extreme left field that You are out of touch with reality.

Second, Gonzalez is a scum bag and a lot of conservatives in Congress hate him for his efforts to avoid enforcing laws with respect to illegal aliens.

Well Carl, reality is open to perception... Being far left and far right depends upon how the person looks at it. To me, you are so far right that you are bat-sh*t crazy, but does that mean my view of you would stack up the same as say States?... I doubt States thinks you are far right, because he is conservative, himself.

I also love your little covert style "illegal alien" addition... Once again you prove your near one track mind... Clearly, there are more important issues... Why don't you focus your energies on say... I don't know... Making arguements against abortion or something for awhile...

First, from you, being called "far right" is a compliment.  You are so far off in extreme left field that moderates look "far right" to you.

Second, I will allow StatesRights to speak for himself. 

Third, facts are facts.  There are a lot of members of the Senate who are very unhappy with Gonzalez over his failure to enforce the laws with respect to illegal aliens.

[Dr. Cynic]

From his quote it seems like Coburn believes that Gonzales should resign as a way to stop any further investigation into the matter rather than resigning for his role in the whole debacle.

The fact that Coburn is so far to the Right on most issues leads me to believe that this is nothing but a political ploy on his part.

First, Coburn is a good guy.  Have you considered that YOU have gone so far out in extreme left field that You are out of touch with reality.

Second, Gonzalez is a scum bag and a lot of conservatives in Congress hate him for his efforts to avoid enforcing laws with respect to illegal aliens.

Well Carl, reality is open to perception... Being far left and far right depends upon how the person looks at it. To me, you are so far right that you are bat-sh*t crazy, but does that mean my view of you would stack up the same as say States?... I doubt States thinks you are far right, because he is conservative, himself.

I also love your little covert style "illegal alien" addition... Once again you prove your near one track mind... Clearly, there are more important issues... Why don't you focus your energies on say... I don't know... Making arguements against abortion or something for awhile...

First, from you, being called "far right" is a compliment.  You are so far off in extreme left field that moderates look "far right" to you.

Second, I will allow StatesRights to speak for himself. 

Third, facts are facts.  There are a lot of members of the Senate who are very unhappy with Gonzalez over his failure to enforce the laws with respect to illegal aliens.

First, it may be a compliment to you, as you've just illustrated my point that your viewpoint is subjective. You have just proved my arguement. Maybe to someone else, being called "far left" is the ultimate compliment.

Second, I was using States as an example because he is a conservative... How he feels about you is his own accord... I was illustrating a point.

And third... That may be, but most Senators are unhappy over more than just a few Mexicans that cross the border illegally.

[CARLHAYDEN]

You really have difficulty understanding basic English.

First, what I said was that being called names by YOU was a compliment, since YOU have really gone far, far out in extreme left wing.

Second, you really should take some time and converse with elected officials, and their staff. 

[Speed of Sound]

You really have difficulty understanding basic English.

First, wWhat I said was that being called names by YOU was a compliment, since YOU have really gone far, far out in extreme left wing.

Second, you really should take some time and converse with elected officials, and their staff. 

I believe that this is pretty much what you said last time. You are a broken record, and a really ignorant one at that. You havent done anything other than avoid anything Dr. Cynic says and instead interject your repetitive rhetoric.

[CARLHAYDEN]

You really have difficulty understanding basic English.

First, wWhat I said was that being called names by YOU was a compliment, since YOU have really gone far, far out in extreme left wing.

Second, you really should take some time and converse with elected officials, and their staff. 

I believe that this is pretty much what you said last time. You are a broken record, and a really ignorant one at that. You havent done anything other than avoid anything Dr. Cynic says and instead interject your repetitive rhetoric.

I'm sorry, but you posting seemed a little incoherent to me.

Now, to clarify what you seem to misunderstand.  If you have bothered to examine any of the 'political compass' type sites, you will find that I pretty consistently come out as a moderate conservative.

So, no I would not like a normal person alledging "...you are so far right that you are bat-sh*t crazy...," as Dr. Cynic stated. 

However, I would not expect a normal person to use such language.  It is however something I have come to expect from him.  So, being called "far right" by Dr. Cynic means one is quite moderate.

Also, I do not recall in this thread previously recommending one contact "elected officials, and their staff."  So, this is new, and not "repetitive."  If you can cite where I previously brought this up in this thread, please feel free to post it in a reply.

Now, I would really suggest you both update, and avoid mixing, your metaphors.  Most posters at this forum are rather youngish and might not understand you "broken record" reference, and I must confess that that I have never met a sentient "record," hence none that is "ignorant." 

Oh, and BTW, why don't you post your results from some of the quizes in the Politics Quiz List.  Of course, subtle differences will result from different quizes depending upon questions asked, phrasing, intensity, etc., but, they constitute a reality check:

Vote Match Quizzes/Politics Match Quiz says I am a: Moderate Conservative

Selectsmart 2006 Political Ideology Selectors says I am a:  Moderate Conservative

The Political Matrix (English oriented) describes me as "Centre"

The Politcal Compass: 2.0 Econimic, -1.08 Social

So, go ahead and post yours! 

[Speed of Sound]

You really have difficulty understanding basic English.

First, wWhat I said was that being called names by YOU was a compliment, since YOU have really gone far, far out in extreme left wing.

Second, you really should take some time and converse with elected officials, and their staff. 

I believe that this is pretty much what you said last time. You are a broken record, and a really ignorant one at that. You havent done anything other than avoid anything Dr. Cynic says and instead interject your repetitive rhetoric.

I'm sorry, but you posting seemed a little incoherent to me.

Now, to clarify what you seem to misunderstnd.  If you have bothered to examine any of the 'political compass' type sites, you will find that I pretty consistently come out as a moderate conservative.

So, no I would not like a normal person alledging "...you are so far right that you are bat-sh*t crazy...," as Dr. Cynic stated. 

However, I would not expect a normal person to use such language.  It is however something I have come to expect from him.  So, being called "fae right" by Dr. Cynic means one is quite moderate.

Also, I do not recall in this thread previously recommending one contact "elected officials, and their staff."  So, this is new, and not "repetitive."  If you can cite where I previously brought this up in this thread, please feel free to post it in a reply.

Now, I would really suggest you both update, and avoid mixing, your metaphors.  Most posters at this forum are rather youngish and might not understand you "broken record" reference, and I must confess that that I have never met a sentient "record," hence none that is "ignorant." 

Oh, and BTW, why don't you post your results from some of the quizes in the Politics Quiz List.  Of course, subtle differences will result from different quizes depending upon questions asked, phrasing, intensity, etc., but, they constitute a reality check:

Vote Match Quizzes/Politics Match Quiz says I am a: Moderate Conservative

Selectsmart 2006 Political Ideology Selectors says I am a:  Moderate Conservative

The Political Matrix (English oriented) describes me as "Centre"

The Politcal Compass: 2.0 Econimic, -1.08 Social

So, go ahead and post yours! 

First of all, adding a tiny suggestion about staff contact doesnt change the fact that you, as always, have little substance and seem to enjoy just judding off of the conversation into your own little stabs to turn the conversation into exactly what this has-personal arguing instead of actual political brainstorming and discourse. I'm not ashamed to say that I have very far left scores (you can see mine under my name on the left there), but that doesnt mean that Dr. Cynic is wrong. In fact, he is quite right. If an extreme rightist told me I was a crazy far leftist when I was a centrist (Im not of course) I would consider it a compliment, even with the profanity used in the example.

[CARLHAYDEN]

First, I will admit that I am unfamiliar with the wording "judding."  Is this a typo, a term used in your social set, or just a word you made up?

Second, I am not suprised that you have "very far left scores" (to use your words) at the various political quizzes.  Its nice of you to admit it.

Third, I suggest that my analysis is a little more accurate than yours or Dr. Cynic, as mine coincides with the results of the various tests I listed, and yours does not.

Fourth, "brainwashing" is neither a "conversation" nor a "discourse." 

Main Entry: brain·wash·ing
Pronunciation: 'brAn-"wo-shi[ng], -"wä-
Function: noun

a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas

Main Entry: con·ver·sa·tion
Pronunciation: "kän-v&r-'sA-sh&n
Function: noun

oral exchange of sentiments, observations, opinions, or ideas

Main Entry: 1dis·course
Pronunciation: 'dis-"kors, dis-'
Function: noun

verbal interchange of ideas

[Ebowed]

I'm sorry, but you posting seemed a little incoherent to me.

Yeah I hate it when people can't correct there grammer.  At least your decent enough to have perfect english.

[CARLHAYDEN]

I'm sorry, but you posting seemed a little incoherent to me.

Yeah I hate it when people can't correct there grammer.  At least your decent enough to have perfect english.

Sorry, but I never claimed to have perfect English.

However, the post to which I referred was incoherent.

[Ebowed]

I'm sorry, but you posting seemed a little incoherent to me.

Yeah I hate it when people can't correct there grammer.  At least your decent enough to have perfect english.

Sorry, but I never claimed to have perfect English.

However, the post to which I referred was incoherent.

Then you must not know how to read.  Either that or you just like to call things incoherent if you don't like what they say.

Actually, it's probably both.  Shouldn't you be sitting on your porch, holding your rifle and looking out for Mexicans?  Go get 'em, CARL!

[CARLHAYDEN]

First, lets look at the meaning of the term, "incoherent."

Incoherent
Main Entry: in·co·her·ent
Function: adjective
lacking coherence:  lacking cohesion : LOOSE b : lacking orderly continuity, arrangement, or relevance : INCONSISTENT <an incoherent essay> c : lacking normal clarity or intelligibility in speech or thought.

Now, lets look at the quotation which I described as "incoherent."

"You are a broken record, and a really ignorant one at that. You havent done anything other than avoid anything Dr. Cynic says and instead interject your repetitive rhetoric."

Lets take that clause by clause:

The "you are a broken record" is simply a incorrect (and somewhat dated) attempt at a 'simile.'

Main Entry: sim·i·le
Function: noun
a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as

As people are not things and things are not people, but it can be contended that they may share certain qualities.   As an example, it would be gramatically correct to say that Ebowed has all the intelligence of a doorknob, as opposed to saying Ebowed is a doorknob.

With respect to the second clause, "and a really ignorant one at that," I have yet to see a phonograph record (which I am tentatively guessing he was referring to when he spoke of "a broken record,) which is either knowledgeable or ignorant.  If you know of such phonograph records, please advise Ripley.  Or, perhaps SOS was referring to some other type of "record" which was broken.  If so, please advise me of the type of "record" to which he was reffing, as it is not clearly obvious in context.

As to the "...you haven't done anything other than avoid anything..." clause, if you find that coherent, I suggest that you take it to an English instructor and explain to them just what it means.

As to the "interject your repetetive rhetoric,"  let me simply note that to "reply" is not to "interject" (if you want, I'll get you the definitions of those two terms), and my statement corrected a mistatement by another poster, who mischaracterized one of my posts.

Now, we in southern Arizona have Patios not "porches," and wonderful conveniences like air conditioning.

It seems to me from your last post, you might want to cool off.

Oh, and BTW, perhaps, since you are so knowledgeable, you can tell me the definition of "judding".

[Ebowed]

Oh gracious, you know how to use a dictionary.  Maybe your tactic is to scare off anyone who dares dispute you through sheer longetivity.  How original!

You don't see how a phonograph record can be ignorant?  You yourself acknowledged that he was using a literary technique, so why the sudden literalism?  I mean, really, is that the best you can come up with?  If you're going to interpret a metaphor (do you know what a simile is?) literally, you can't recognize that it's not meant to be read literally before you do so.  That's common sense.

Was the post badly phrased?  Sure.  That's not the same thing as incoherent.  We can still understand what it says, and we can understand the meaning.  You are pretending that you can't just because you have nothing else to argue on.

Now, check outside on your fancy patio, rich white boy.  Looks like one of the Mexicans is pregnant.  Two birds with one bullet!

[CARLHAYDEN]

Oh gracious, you know how to use a dictionary.  Maybe your tactic is to scare off anyone who dares dispute you through sheer longetivity.  How original!

You don't see how a phonograph record can be ignorant?  You yourself acknowledged that he was using a literary technique, so why the sudden literalism?  I mean, really, is that the best you can come up with?  If you're going to interpret a metaphor (do you know what a simile is?) literally, you can't recognize that it's not meant to be read literally before you do so.  That's common sense.

Was the post badly phrased?  Sure.  That's not the same thing as incoherent.  We can still understand what it says, and we can understand the meaning.  You are pretending that you can't just because you have nothing else to argue on.

Now, check outside on your fancy patio, rich white boy.  Looks like one of the Mexicans is pregnant.  Two birds with one bullet!

I am still waiting for your explanation of the meaning of "...you haven't done anything other than avoid anything..'

[Ebowed]

Ah, so you admit that you don't know the difference between a metaphor and a simile?  Maybe your self-appointed status as the forum's English Linguistics King should be revisited.

It's not really hard; maybe you're having trouble understanding it because you took it out of context?  The actual quote is "...you haven't done anything other than avoid anything Dr. Cynic says."  Now, while it may have been better served under the wording "...you haven't done anything other than avoid what Dr. Cynic says," it's perfectly understandable.

What did you mean by "for your explanation of the"?  I don't understand it lol!

[CARLHAYDEN]

Ah, so you admit that you don't know the difference between a metaphor and a simile?  Maybe your self-appointed status as the forum's English Linguistics King should be revisited.

It's not really hard; maybe you're having trouble understanding it because you took it out of context?  The actual quote is "...you haven't done anything other than avoid anything Dr. Cynic says."  Now, while it may have been better served under the wording "...you haven't done anything other than avoid what Dr. Cynic says," it's perfectly understandable.

What did you mean by "for your explanation of the"?  I don't understand it lol!

Please take your understanding of that actual quote to an English instructor and tell them its perfectly understandable.

Oh, and go ahead and laught as well.

Perhaps you can get the help you clearly need.