Has Rishi Sunak Governed to the Right of Giorgia Meloni so far

[Upper Canada Tory]

This is hard to answer without taking into account the current political context of each country.

Regarding Europe, the UK has already left the EU while Italy is still in it, so the UK has more leverage to 'defy' Brussels. Just as an example, Italy can't propose to leave the ECHR like UK can because all EU members are legally obligated to be parties to it under the Treaty of Lisbon.

On immigration, treatment of refugees/asylum seekers/illegal immigrants is not the only issue. Overall immigration intake matters as well. Meloni wants 833,000 migrants over 3 years (roughly 277,000 annually), while Sunak wants to reduce the UK's immigration intake to 220,000, as per the Tories' 2019 manifesto. In terms of immigration intake per capita, both goals are roughly equal for both countries, but this would be a decrease relative to the UK's current immigration intake, while a stark increase for Italy.

Also, are immigration and the EU the only two metrics here? I'd argue that there's a stronger argument for Sunak being more right-wing than Meloni with regards to economic policy.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Absolutely yes.

I prefer Meloni over Sunak.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Yes, but the reason is that Sunak is more organically right-wing than Meloni, in that he's a classic "sovereign individual" Silicon Valley high caste type that genuinely thinks there are inferior races and classes of people that are born that way. Meloni is an almost accidental fascist at this point, running a center-right government to compensate the whirlwind of attention a fascist was bound to get. Le Pen too would be like this. Meloni mostly cares about the economic class of her electorate and sponsors, hence why she tried to siphon money from the more white collar banking class to prop up tax evading petit bourgeois. Sunak is altogether a more ideological beast and more sociopathic, probably thinking the PM of UK gig is just another stepping stone.

You're right about that, and it's honestly why i would be willing to give Le Pen a chance to undo whatever Macron has done, because Macron is also like silicon valley high caste type.

It's also why I personally had prefer Liz Truss to be in power for longer. I think the only reason Truss went down so quickly was because she was a woman, and woman have to be twice as competent and powerful to remain in power. Males get away with everything.

But yea i'd easily prefer Truss, i'd also prefer Johnson over Sunak a lot, he also governed far better than Sunak and was more of a people's person, or at least project that.

Though we have to consider that Johnson also is kind of a silicon valley high caste kind of type, who thinks he is at all, but he seemed to govern in a more moderate way than Sunak, albeit far more controversial. Same for Cameron, they went to the same school. And Starmer also isn't that much different given he's from Labor. Obviously preferrable over all people mentioned here, but yeah, not someone i'm enthusiastic about. I would spoil my vote in UK and write Jeremy Corbyn now, Jeremy Corbyn than, and Jeremy Corbyn in every future election i'm able to vote in.

I think i'd just write in (even if that option was not there) Jeremy Corbyn in every election i'm able to vote in, at least for the time he's alive and as long UK Labor doesn't change.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Also, are immigration and the EU the only two metrics here? I'd argue that there's a stronger argument for Sunak being more right-wing than Meloni with regards to economic policy.

Mainly cause those were the two issues that Meloni was known to be particularly right wing on but yeah Sunak is definitely to the right of her on economics but that is a fact that I think the vast majority of people would agree with.

[Upper Canada Tory]

Also, a sidenote. I don't really find Meloni's flip-flop on immigration to be that shocking. If anyone is really shocked by this, I suggest you look at this article;

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-11/italy-s-population-will-halve-by-2100-without-immigration-chart?in_source=embedded-checkout-banner

Italy really has no choice but to increase its population via immigration. Viktor Orban-style pro-natalist policies can only work up to a point.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

I don't want to be losing other brain cells here but I just want to note, for what concerns economic policy, that Sunak's government does not have a policy goal of progressively transitioning towards a flat income tax.

[Zinneke]

Yes, but the reason is that Sunak is more organically right-wing than Meloni, in that he's a classic "sovereign individual" Silicon Valley high caste type that genuinely thinks there are inferior races and classes of people that are born that way. Meloni is an almost accidental fascist at this point, running a center-right government to compensate the whirlwind of attention a fascist was bound to get. Le Pen too would be like this. Meloni mostly cares about the economic class of her electorate and sponsors, hence why she tried to siphon money from the more white collar banking class to prop up tax evading petit bourgeois. Sunak is altogether a more ideological beast and more sociopathic, probably thinking the PM of UK gig is just another stepping stone.

You're right about that, and it's honestly why i would be willing to give Le Pen a chance to undo whatever Macron has done, because Macron is also like silicon valley high caste type.

It's also why I personally had prefer Liz Truss to be in power for longer. I think the only reason Truss went down so quickly was because she was a woman, and woman have to be twice as competent and powerful to remain in power. Males get away with everything.

But yea i'd easily prefer Truss, i'd also prefer Johnson over Sunak a lot, he also governed far better than Sunak and was more of a people's person, or at least project that.

Though we have to consider that Johnson also is kind of a silicon valley high caste kind of type, who thinks he is at all, but he seemed to govern in a more moderate way than Sunak, albeit far more controversial. Same for Cameron, they went to the same school. And Starmer also isn't that much different given he's from Labor. Obviously preferrable over all people mentioned here, but yeah, not someone i'm enthusiastic about. I would spoil my vote in UK and write Jeremy Corbyn now, Jeremy Corbyn than, and Jeremy Corbyn in every future election i'm able to vote in.

I think i'd just write in (even if that option was not there) Jeremy Corbyn in every election i'm able to vote in, at least for the time he's alive and as long UK Labor doesn't change.

Laki Laki Laki

so much to unpick

"I'd rather Le Pen than Macron because xyz accelerationist reason or they are somehow both similar" is the, ahem, Molotov-Ribbentrop approach. Meloni is running a more moderate than expected government but its still bad news for LGBT people, brown people, etc and Le Pen would be similar. Especially on things like human rights France would go down in terms of this.

Don't give Le Pen a chance because she is a Russian asset too, financed by Russia and likely to sow discord in the Western alliance supporting Ukraine, share intel with Russians and so on.

"Truss wasn't given a chance because she was a woman". No, she wasn't given a chance because she wrecked her country's reputation with financial markets, which Meloni almost did too. The difference is Meloni still has a semblance of pragamatism and tactical pathway to an overall strategic goal of a government that supports low taxes for land owning classes and petit bourgeois in exchange for a crunch on white collar progressives, and isn't as blinkered as Truss.

" Johnson also is kind of a silicon valley high caste kind of type" - I've discussed this before, but Johnson is a very British sort of elite, whereas Sunak is more characteristic of the global elite, the people THeresa May was referring to as "citizens of nowhere" (she wasn't referring to Remainers with dual nationality despite what was reported). Sunak is English, don't get me wrong, but his whole pathway is different to Johnson's in that Sunak probably views Britain as the minor power it is and has little overall optimism for it in the same way Johnson did, instead seeing his job as PM as a kin to managing a tough International Org gig or a CEO of a bank...that's where he's out of touch, he's a poster boy for the squeaky voiced diplo kid class of people that continue to grow exponentially and lock out the corridors of power for themselves using the save 10 higher education institutions to do so. Johnson's elitism was more nakedly primitive - he rated people who could entertain his more immediate Maslow pyramid requirements, including attractive women (by all accounts his stint working in journalism, he could only afford attention to women), he was more "come louder" type than "cum laude". In that sense I respect him more as an authentic populist.

"write in Jeremy Corbyn" jfc Laki stop trying to make Jeremy Corbyn happen, its not going to happen. He's a man stuck in the 1980s, a testimonial fossil who was propelled accidentally to a leadership position . You're legit saying you're gonna write his name in every election?

You're touting voting for a split red-brown ticket in the upcoming elections in our country aren't you? Get real man, none of these testimonial circus acts like Hedebouw, Corbyn, Van Grieken or whatever are working for your interests. Hedebouw, who is only there because of nepotism, is paying himself silly money with his Giorgio Armani glasses from donations you make while Van Grieken hosts cocaine-fuelled orgies because you give him a platform of respectability.

Get your shizzle together hombre, are you a red-brown social fascist now that also sympathizes with Truss? What's going on? 

[Lord Halifax]

Also, a sidenote. I don't really find Meloni's flip-flop on immigration to be that shocking. If anyone is really shocked by this, I suggest you look at this article;

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-11/italy-s-population-will-halve-by-2100-without-immigration-chart?in_source=embedded-checkout-banner

Italy really has no choice but to increase its population via immigration. Viktor Orban-style pro-natalist policies can only work up to a point.

no choice in the sense that her voters wouldn't be willing to pay the price, but they could simply lower the level of economic activity (= become poorer), and cut the public sector to transfer workers to the private sector

[Dan the Roman]

Cameron was an Oppidan at Eton. Johnson a Colleger(KS). That's basically a massive class difference which lasts a lifetime.


Oversimplified but Cameron was a very middle class(English version) at Eton.

Johnson half American/prominent parents engaged in prominent things.

[CumbrianLefty]

Laki, do you still prefer Sunak to Starmer?

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Laki, do you still prefer Sunak to Starmer?

No

I never did

I just don't reward traitors which is what Starmer is, so i would abstain or vote third party.

[CumbrianLefty]

Laki, do you still prefer Sunak to Starmer?

No

I never did

Pretty sure you did say something to that effect, but whatever. You did support Trump after all.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Laki, do you still prefer Sunak to Starmer?

No

I never did

Pretty sure you did say something

 to that effect, but whatever. You did support Trump after all.

I'm more consistently left wing than you ever were, and i'm not someone who targets certain posters for no reason continuously like you always do.

[CumbrianLefty]

Laki, do you still prefer Sunak to Starmer?

No

I never did

Pretty sure you did say something

 to that effect, but whatever. You did support Trump after all.

I'm more consistently left wing than you ever were, and i'm not someone who targets certain posters for no reason continuously like you always do.

Hmmm, "for no reason?". Would certainly like a few citations for that one

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Laki, do you still prefer Sunak to Starmer?

No

I never did

Pretty sure you did say something

 to that effect, but whatever. You did support Trump after all.

I'm more consistently left wing than you ever were, and i'm not someone who targets certain posters for no reason continuously like you always do.

Hmmm, "for no reason?". Would certainly like a few citations for that one

Yes, for no reason.

You hate that I condemn the obvious unlikeable more than the less obvious unlikeable people but you have a divisive unlikeable approach as well and are prejudiced focusing on myths.

You want to know my ideology in the UK.

My ideology is corbynista and it exists out of: Jeremy Corbyn and no-one else. That is my ideology. And you can take that no one else literally. Except for people who don't try to eliminate Corbyn's legacy which most of the British forum users and Labor itself try to do. While allegations of antisemitism were obviously false, and while Labor continues to deny/minimize Israëls crimes in the process of it. Apartheid denial.

And as long people like JK Rowling remain influential UK Labor might be one of the most dislikeable social democratic parties worldwide. It's probably the "labor party" i outright hate the most globally. A labor party that isn't truly pro-labor and despite being head of government for most of the 00s and late 90s was unable to fix the national healthcare crisis or deal with the lackluster public transport in the UK or deal with the terrible high school system of the UK. Why would someone even vote Labor if that is what they stand for. If they continue to value pro-iraq war effort people like Blair more highly than people like Corbyn.

There is even consensus here that Bush was a terrible president. Would the red avatars here also defend Bush if Bush was a democrat? Or if the Iraq war happened in a democratic presidency. Your labor party is a disgrace to everyone who calls theirselves even left wing. An utter embarassment for every left wing movement worldwide. The UK is the prime example of how a country should never be governed. And Labor is definitely also responsible for it, it's just not Tory failures like how people within your party would like to frame it as. You were for the most part leading the government in the last 30 years.

And British newspapers/tabloids is something I actively avoid, because its honestly even worse than blatant outright fake news. Probably for the most part the worst kind of journalism out there in the western world. There are always exceptions like The Guardian but no actual British person even reads that relatively speaking.

[CumbrianLefty]

I don't dislike you, I just think that you are incredibly naive.

Corbyn isn't a god or a saint - he is a flawed even if in many respects worthy human who surrounded himself with some truly terrible people (genuine outright admirers of Stalin, for example - even if we leave aside you know what for now) Yes loads of his opponents are also bad people, and at times his treatment by "mainstream" media and politics bordered on the ridiculous. But it is equally true that he gave them rather a lot to work with.

And if you lived here, you might understand better how removing the current government from office is literally the *only* thing that matters to most people (very much including the bulk of the left) at the moment. Meanwhile, we have Chris Williamson (one of Jezza's mates) shrieking "STOP STARMER".

[LAKISYLVANIA]

The UK Labor establishment or Starmer should not try to actively get rid of part of your base. Than maybe "STOP STARMER" wouldn't happen.

[Alben Barkley]

Wild change of tack from Meloni. The only thing I ever heard about her before she was elected (and I may be misremembering this) was her saying something vaguely along the lines of "Salvini wants to turn back the boats. I want to shoot them."

I'm starting to wonder if this woman is actually some genius political plant by the left/liberals. It's hard otherwise to explain the wild divergence in her rhetoric getting to the top and her actions while actually there. She really doesn't seem so bad at all in most respects, frankly. Which makes me breathe a sigh of relief, as I was worried about Italy when she was first elected.

[Alben Barkley]

The UK Labor establishment or Starmer should not try to actively get rid of part of your base. Than maybe "STOP STARMER" wouldn't happen.

I'm sure Starmer is real scared of the Twitter Corbynites as his Labour dominates the polls after Corbyn's was utterly humiliated.

[OSR stands with Israel]

The UK Labor establishment or Starmer should not try to actively get rid of part of your base. Than maybe "STOP STARMER" wouldn't happen.

I'm sure Starmer is real scared of the Twitter Corbynites as his Labour dominates the polls after Corbyn's was utterly humiliated.

Here is some more proof of this:

https://twitter.com/LukeTryl/status/1692484143081267684?t=-k4dEvvhn5zll9okTtmIEg...

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Wild change of tack from Meloni. The only thing I ever heard about her before she was elected (and I may be misremembering this) was her saying something vaguely along the lines of "Salvini wants to turn back the boats. I want to shoot them."

I'm starting to wonder if this woman is actually some genius political plant by the left/liberals. It's hard otherwise to explain the wild divergence in her rhetoric getting to the top and her actions while actually there. She really doesn't seem so bad at all in most respects, frankly. Which makes me breathe a sigh of relief, as I was worried about Italy when she was first elected.

All of us Italian left-wingers should be glad that the government which is doing exactly what it promised - abolishing higher income tax brackets, saying no to a national minimum wage, not recognizing same-sex parents etc. - has taken a surprise decision on one topic (immigration)! What a great leftist plant!

Can we shut down this thread already, please?

[Torrain]

Apparently they’re planning some joint push on migration:
https://twitter.com/singharj/status/1700735969408827456

[CumbrianLefty]

Wild change of tack from Meloni. The only thing I ever heard about her before she was elected (and I may be misremembering this) was her saying something vaguely along the lines of "Salvini wants to turn back the boats. I want to shoot them."

I'm starting to wonder if this woman is actually some genius political plant by the left/liberals. It's hard otherwise to explain the wild divergence in her rhetoric getting to the top and her actions while actually there. She really doesn't seem so bad at all in most respects, frankly. Which makes me breathe a sigh of relief, as I was worried about Italy when she was first elected.

All of us Italian left-wingers should be glad that the government which is doing exactly what it promised - abolishing higher income tax brackets, saying no to a national minimum wage, not recognizing same-sex parents etc. - has taken a surprise decision on one topic (immigration)! What a great leftist plant!

Can we shut down this thread already, please?

I think the point is that, whilst it is a pretty right wing government doing some pretty right wing stuff, it *still* isn't the Orban-style horror that many genuinely expected beforehand.

Many didn't foresee Meloni taking the line she has over Ukraine, for example.

Is this at least fair comment?

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Wild change of tack from Meloni. The only thing I ever heard about her before she was elected (and I may be misremembering this) was her saying something vaguely along the lines of "Salvini wants to turn back the boats. I want to shoot them."

I'm starting to wonder if this woman is actually some genius political plant by the left/liberals. It's hard otherwise to explain the wild divergence in her rhetoric getting to the top and her actions while actually there. She really doesn't seem so bad at all in most respects, frankly. Which makes me breathe a sigh of relief, as I was worried about Italy when she was first elected.

All of us Italian left-wingers should be glad that the government which is doing exactly what it promised - abolishing higher income tax brackets, saying no to a national minimum wage, not recognizing same-sex parents etc. - has taken a surprise decision on one topic (immigration)! What a great leftist plant!

Can we shut down this thread already, please?

I think the point is that, whilst it is a pretty right wing government doing some pretty right wing stuff, it *still* isn't the Orban-style horror that many genuinely expected beforehand.

Many didn't foresee Meloni taking the line she has over Ukraine, for example.

Is this at least fair comment?

This would be a much more sensible comment than Alben's inanity, but still Ukraine seems a particularly poor example since her line has been very consistent on that ever since the invasion (unless you mean that foreseeing that very line was not obvious a few years ago given earlier more Putin-sympathetic pronouncements, although at the time many did not foresee her rapid rise either).

Personally this first year of government has been in line with my expectations but I guess I am an optimist.