Has Rishi Sunak Governed to the Right of Giorgia Meloni so far

[OSR stands with Israel]

On Immigration:

https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-far-right-leader-giorgia-meloni-migration/

Before becoming Italian prime minister, Giorgia Meloni was one of the most strident voices on migration in the European Union. As an opposition politician, she warned darkly of efforts to substitute native Italians with ethnic minorities and promised to put in place a naval blockade to stop migrants crossing the Mediterranean.

During her time in office, she has taken a markedly different tack — presiding over a sharp spike in irregular arrivals and introducing legislation that could see as many as 1.5 million new migrants arrive through legal channels.

Compare this with Sunak:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-65643684

Asked if he would stop some international students bringing dependants with them when they come to study in the UK, Mr Sunak said he wouldn't "speculate".

"What I would say is we're considering a range of options to help tackle numbers of legal migration and to bring those numbers down - and we'll talk more about that in the future," he said.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/12/uk-sunak-asylum-migration-boats/

British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has now made it official that one of his top priorities is to pass a law that effectively bans people escaping conflict, persecution, or famine from seeking refuge in the nation with the world’s sixth-largest GDP. His government’s illegal migration bill says anyone who enters the United Kingdom through an illegal route will be detained and swiftly deported to a “safe country’’ such as Rwanda and banned from ever stepping foot in the U.K. again.

Sunak advertised the legislation as a deterrence tool to discourage people from undertaking life-threatening boat journeys and economic migrants from “jumping the queue.’’ Experts and activists told Foreign Policy the practical effect of the policy will be to render it effectively impossible for most to claim asylum in Britain.

On the European Issue:



https://www.politico.eu/article/melonis-western-nationalism/

As leader of the post-fascist Brothers of Italy, many had expected her to be a firebrand alá Hungary’s Viktor Orbán. But she has instead sought a different goal: to become the first populist-right leader to forge a genuine Pan-European alliance.

And if she’s successful, it could change the game in Brussels forever.

Cynics may argue that Meloni is simply doing this to survive politically and not out of a serious Western nationalist belief. This argument fails, however, when her policy toward Pan-European politics is considered, as Meloni party is a member of the European Conservatives and Reformists (ECR) political group in the European Parliament — not the farther-right Identity and Democracy group.

Likewise, her outreach toward and ability to work closely with European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen — unique among the populist right — may yield results for her in another way: a future right-of-center coalition in Brussels.

Meloni sees the EU not as a threat but as a unifier of the West; her goal is reform, not destruction. As a result, moderate groups like the European People’s Party, and perhaps even the centrists, may find a coalition with a strengthened ECR to be a viable option after next year’s elections. Already, her foreign minister has floated such a possibility — as did Meloni herself when she met with Czech Prime Minister (and EPP member) Petr Fiala earlier this year.

vs Suank


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/aug/28/suella-braverman-restates-wish-for-uk-to-leave-european-court-of-human-rights

Suella Braverman has reiterated her wish to leave what she called the “politicised” European court of human rights (ECHR) and refused to rule out the mass tagging of asylum seekers, a move one refugee charity said would treat people as “mere objects”.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I'm shocked at Meloni's record on immigration so far.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I'm shocked at Meloni's record on immigration so far.

Yeah same , and my guess is this is one of the reasons :

- Italy in the modern era(so Post WW2) has considered itself more European in general so something like that first article said of a “Western Nationalism” is more popular than “Italian Nationalism” would be . While on other hand the UK has been the opposite, viewing itself as more distinct from Europe in a way and there always has been a debate whether they were more closer to the “Anglo” world or “European” world .

- Meloni unlike Sunak doesn’t have a majority government

- As for Sunak , the fact the Tories are polling so badly may be a reason for this as this is the last time the Tories will have in a while to pass their agenda so they are quickly trying to Ram it through . Also to ensure that they get enough turnout among their base to avoid a complete collapse in the next election and instead try to come out with 190-200 seats .

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I'm shocked at Meloni's record on immigration so far.

Yeah same , and my guess is this is one of the reasons :

- Italy in the modern era(so Post WW2) has considered itself more European in general so something like that first article said of a “Western Nationalism” is more popular than “Italian Nationalism” would be . While on other hand the UK has been the opposite, viewing itself as more distinct from Europe in a way and there always has been a debate whether they were more closer to the “Anglo” world or “European” world .

- Meloni unlike Sunak doesn’t have a majority government

- As for Sunak , the fact the Tories are polling so badly may be a reason for this as this is the last time the Tories will have in a while to pass their agenda so they are quickly trying to Ram it through . Also to ensure that they get enough turnout among their base to avoid a complete collapse in the next election and instead try to come out with 190-200 seats .

That's a decent guess. One wonders what second-term Meloni does, and how Meloni in general would handle the issues a completely free immigration policy generates...it's important to maintain some kind of checks somewhere.

[Aurelius2]

Wild change of tack from Meloni. The only thing I ever heard about her before she was elected (and I may be misremembering this) was her saying something vaguely along the lines of "Salvini wants to turn back the boats. I want to shoot them."

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Wild change of tack from Meloni. The only thing I ever heard about her before she was elected (and I may be misremembering this) was her saying something vaguely along the lines of "Salvini wants to turn back the boats. I want to shoot them."

I recall her saying something along those lines as well, though the exact words are lost to me.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

- Italy in the modern era(so Post WW2) has considered itself more European in general so something like that first article said of a “Western Nationalism” is more popular than “Italian Nationalism” would be .

I have no idea what that means, but I think you need to stop talking now.

- Meloni unlike Sunak doesn’t have a majority government

[biggest facepalm in history] WHAT?

Meloni's government is a coalition but not only does it have a clear majority, the parties in it literally ran together at the last election campaigning on a common platform.

[CumbrianLefty]

Meloni has been a bit more "moderate" than most expected, Sunak maybe a touch less so.

But its a bit invidious to compare, not least due to the different circumstances (as already mentioned)

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Wild change of tack from Meloni. The only thing I ever heard about her before she was elected (and I may be misremembering this) was her saying something vaguely along the lines of "Salvini wants to turn back the boats. I want to shoot them."

I feel like you had already mentioned this but I don't know where this comes from; I do not remembering anything like that. She did talk about a "naval blockade" during the campaign but it was all fluff because - shocker! - you cannot actually do that, so her government just forced boats to rotate between different ports to lighten the burden of places like Sicily and Calabria and more recently signed a memorandum with Tunisia.

[Sir Mohamed]

I'm shocked at Meloni's record on immigration so far.

Yeah same , and my guess is this is one of the reasons :

- Italy in the modern era(so Post WW2) has considered itself more European in general so something like that first article said of a “Western Nationalism” is more popular than “Italian Nationalism” would be . While on other hand the UK has been the opposite, viewing itself as more distinct from Europe in a way and there always has been a debate whether they were more closer to the “Anglo” world or “European” world .

- Meloni unlike Sunak doesn’t have a majority government

- As for Sunak , the fact the Tories are polling so badly may be a reason for this as this is the last time the Tories will have in a while to pass their agenda so they are quickly trying to Ram it through . Also to ensure that they get enough turnout among their base to avoid a complete collapse in the next election and instead try to come out with 190-200 seats .

That's a decent guess. One wonders what second-term Meloni does, and how Meloni in general would handle the issues a completely free immigration policy generates...it's important to maintain some kind of checks somewhere.

The question is whether she lasts to a 2nd term. Italian governments aren't exactly known for their longevity.

[President Johnson]

Kind of, yes. While I dislike Meloni and her government, she hasn't turned out nearly as bad as I thought. Even on issues like Ukraine, where she's clearly been in the pro-Ukraine camp. It's also being said she gets along well with Olaf Scholz on a personal and professional level.

[Zinneke]

Yes, but the reason is that Sunak is more organically right-wing than Meloni, in that he's a classic "sovereign individual" Silicon Valley high caste type that genuinely thinks there are inferior races and classes of people that are born that way. Meloni is an almost accidental fascist at this point, running a center-right government to compensate the whirlwind of attention a fascist was bound to get. Le Pen too would be like this. Meloni mostly cares about the economic class of her electorate and sponsors, hence why she tried to siphon money from the more white collar banking class to prop up tax evading petit bourgeois. Sunak is altogether a more ideological beast and more sociopathic, probably thinking the PM of UK gig is just another stepping stone.

[Dan the Roman]

Yes, but the reason is that Sunak is more organically right-wing than Meloni, in that he's a classic "sovereign individual" Silicon Valley high caste type that genuinely thinks there are inferior races and classes of people that are born that way. Meloni is an almost accidental fascist at this point, running a center-right government to compensate the whirlwind of attention a fascist was bound to get. Le Pen too would be like this. Meloni mostly cares about the economic class of her electorate and sponsors, hence why she tried to siphon money from the more white collar banking class to prop up tax evading petit bourgeois. Sunak is altogether a more ideological beast and more sociopathic, probably thinking the PM of UK gig is just another stepping stone.

So as someone with a limited amount of adjacent exposure, this, while a caricature and harsh, has a degree of truth. Rishi is probably the most socially right-wing Prime Minister in a century in that he frankly believes the world is divided - rightly - into winners and losers, and that a tendency to over-indulge losers is a major weakness of the 21st century world.

Now his definition of loser extends to many of his own MPs and Cabinet, but when it comes to social issues it is huge.

Cameron may have been fairly libertarian on Trans/Gay stuff.

Boris balanced that with what was politically advantageous.

May had empathy.

Rishi quite likely(if those around him are anything to go by) is skeptical that gender dysphoria exists(not in an ideological, in the same way he would be suspicious of an employee complaining about long covid or asking for a vacation due to depression or loud noise) and if it does exist, finds the demands that medical treatment be provided as absurd. And if treatment is to be available, the idea people want him to pay for it outrageous.

I think this is typical of his approach. He doesn't have fixed far right views or an ideological outlook, but the net effect is to make him by far among the most rightwing British politicians on a personal level because he does not view a host of issues as legitimate.

Now this also means he won't put much effort into them. But if others are want to do so, there really isn't anything he would object to.

[oldtimer]

Meloni has been a bit more "moderate" than most expected, Sunak maybe a touch less so.

But its a bit invidious to compare, not least due to the different circumstances (as already mentioned)

Under current polling Sunak would struggle to win his own seat in rural Yorkshire.

So of course he is trying win his 100% white lower middle class farmers seat, to avoid the ultimate humiliation.

[jojoju1998]

Here's another factor that might make Meloni different.


There's a certain 86 year old man in white cassocks, who most Catholics see as their leader, and is a global leader as well. And he lives Right in Rome.

The relationship between the Italian Government and the Holy See are quite complex. Catholicism still has a strong hold over Italy.

Where the UK, you don't have that dynamic, even with the Church of England.

[TheTide]

Italy is yet another country that has the rules and norms of Anglospheric politics applied to it when being discussed in the Anglosphere.

[Angel of Death]

Has Rishi Sunak Governed[...]

I'm gonna have to stop you right there.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Italy is yet another country that has the rules and norms of Anglospheric politics applied to it when being discussed in the Anglosphere.

This is true and I can tell you that reading through this thread has been a terrible experience for me.

[OSR stands with Israel]

- Italy in the modern era(so Post WW2) has considered itself more European in general so something like that first article said of a “Western Nationalism” is more popular than “Italian Nationalism” would be .

I have no idea what that means, but I think you need to stop talking now.

Those terms came directly from the politico article I posted

[Horus]

Sunak isn't kicking gay parents off of birth certificates so there's that.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Sunak has hardly been strict on economic immigration. Numbers have absoutlety surged under him.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

- Italy in the modern era(so Post WW2) has considered itself more European in general so something like that first article said of a “Western Nationalism” is more popular than “Italian Nationalism” would be .

I have no idea what that means, but I think you need to stop talking now.

Those terms came directly from the politico article I posted

Let me amend my statement: I think you need to stop reading POLITICO.

On a related note, I noticed that the other POLITICO article you posted calls the conservative newspaper Il Foglio "a centrist daily". Even worse...

[Conservatopia]

Stop it - you're making me like Sunak.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Meloni has been a bit more "moderate" than most expected, Sunak maybe a touch less so.

But its a bit invidious to compare, not least due to the different circumstances (as already mentioned)

Under current polling Sunak would struggle to win his own seat in rural Yorkshire.

So of course he is trying win his 100% white lower middle class farmers seat, to avoid the ultimate humiliation.

I realise that very little you post has anything more than a coincidental relationship to reality, but the idea that the average Richmondshire farmer is "lower middle class" is an impressively wrong take.

[CumbrianLefty]

- Italy in the modern era(so Post WW2) has considered itself more European in general so something like that first article said of a “Western Nationalism” is more popular than “Italian Nationalism” would be .

I have no idea what that means, but I think you need to stop talking now.

Those terms came directly from the politico article I posted

And there's exactly your problem.