Brazil to propose embryo of Brics currency at summit
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  Brazil to propose embryo of Brics currency at summit
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Red Velvet
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« on: August 21, 2023, 06:57:03 AM »
« edited: August 21, 2023, 09:01:05 AM by Red Velvet »

Brazil to propose embryo of Brics currency at summit

The summit that will take place in South Africa this week between the leaders of Brazil, China, Russia, South Africa and India (Brics) will try to close an agreement to accelerate the process of transformation of the international scenario and consolidate the alliance as an unavoidable player in the diplomacy and geopolitics.

In his participation, President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva will bring up the idea of initiating studies to establish a reference unit among the five currencies of the bloc. The goal is that, once the work is done, the alliance can later establish whether there is space to create a currency that will allow trade to be carried out without going through the dollar.

The first step towards this, however, would be the establishment of a kind of value reference unit. The Brazilian project already has the explicit support of Russians and is seen with sympathy by China.

As Brazil assumes the presidency of the BRICS in 2025, one of the possibilities is that the studies would be finished by then and that, then, it would be up to the Brazilian government to announce the results of this initiative.

The Brazilian government, however, rejects the idea that it will open a front of opposition to the dollar. It is, according to Brasília, just thinking about new alternatives for the world.

In the wake of the transformations that the Brics want to promote, this is a strategic chapter for trade between the five economies to take place preferably in local currencies.

In the future, this would reduce the use of the dollar and dependence on the US currency. As diplomats point out, this is not a financial issue. But a geopolitical position of enormous proportions.

For the American government, the reduction of the dollar's role does not only mean a loss of hegemony. Part of the unilateral sanctions applied by the US is on the financial system, given the dominant presence of the dollar. A country, therefore, can be asphyxiated only by being prevented from using US currency.

But if a shadow financial system is created with alternative currencies, the White House's power to impose sanctions is radically reduced.

In a seminar promoted this weekend by the South Africans, the Brazilian Paulo Nogueira Batista Jr. highlighted how this is used.

"There has been an instrumentalization of the dollar as a weapon. That is, the use of the national / international currency and the Western financial system to target hostile countries or countries seen as such," he said.

"Venezuela, Iran, Afghanistan and, to a large extent, Russia were targets of sanctions and punitive measures that could only be applied because the dollar and the US financial system occupy the position they occupy in the world", said the economist.

According to him, the case of Russia is "unprecedented". "After the invasion of Ukraine, the US and its European allies put a freeze on Russian reserves invested in dollars and euros, worth around $300 billion, roughly half of Russia's net international assets," he said.

"Evidently, the use and abuse of the dollar's privileged position leads to a loss of legitimacy of the prevailing international monetary system. This has caused an erosion of confidence in the dollar - and confidence is an indispensable requirement for any currency. In a sentence: the The United States is today the main enemy of the dollar as a world currency", he warned.

For him, a propitious environment for discussions on the reform of the monetary system and the de-dollarization of international transactions was "created by the US itself".

Currency name: R5

The Brazilian even designed what could be the path to a bloc currency. According to him, "the matter is complex, at the same time financial and political".

But at least one candidate for the coin's name already exists. Aleksei Mozhin, Russian executive director of the IMF, noted that the currencies of the five countries all start with the letter "R" - real, ruble, rupee, renminbi and rand. His suggestion, therefore, is that the possible new currency be called R5.

According to Nogueira Batista, the R5 would start as a unit of account, taking the form of a basket of five currencies. "The weights of the five currencies would roughly reflect the relative weights of the five economies," he said.

The renminbi would carry the most weight in the basket, followed by the rupee, then the real and the ruble, with the rand having a lower weight.

"The Chinese currency could, to give an illustrative example, represent 40% of the basket; the Indian currency, 25%; the Russian and Brazilian currencies, 15% each; and South Africa, 5%", he explained.

In a first step, the R5 could be used as a unit of denomination for certain transactions and official accounting records, in addition to being adopted to replace the dollar in the internal accounting of the financial mechanisms created by the bloc.

Both the Brazilian government and the economist point out that none of this means that the R5 has a physical existence or that a BRICS Central Bank is created. "The objective would not be to create a single currency that would replace the five national currencies", clarified the economist.

In retreat, BRICS leaders try to redefine the world's geopolitical map

But the currency is not the only issue on the agenda. If the hegemony in the last 200 years has been on the axis between Europe and the USA, the bloc will make it clear even during the summit and in its final declaration that the system is outdated, that reforms are urgent and that there will be no more room for international decisions without the presence of the Brics.

In addition to the currency issue, two other topics will be on the meeting's agenda.

- The expansion of the BRICS
- A common position on the reform of international bodies

Together, these points mean a shift in the tectonic plates in international politics as rarely seen in decades and the realization that a new relationship of strength has come to exist between the emerging countries and the Western powers.

But, for now, there is no consensus on how each of the points will be dealt with and, in a retreat restricted to the leaders, the hope is that an agreement will be reached.

The retreat is organized to take place on Tuesday night (22nd), in Johannesburg. Only leaders will be allowed to enter, accompanied by their respective chancellors and an extremely limited number of assistants.

Vladimir Putin, the Russian leader, will not travel to South Africa, facing the risk of being arrested on account of an indictment by the International Criminal Court. But, in the retreat and in the debates, he will participate by videoconference, while his chancellor, Sergey Lavrov, will be at the meeting in person.

Tension

Sources among the Brics negotiators reveal that China's idea was that there would be no negotiation during the summit. Xi Jinping, Chinese president, is known for his "imperial" presence at events and always wants decisions to have already been taken before his participation.

But both Brazil and South Africans, with former unionist leaders, are comfortable being in retreat to negotiate a political settlement. Among foreign diplomats, there is a fear that Lula and Ramaphosa will end up winning.

Expansion and confrontation with Chinese

But another heated debate promises to be the expansion of the bloc. Over the past few months, negotiators have worked out different scenarios for what an expansion of the alliance could look like. The idea was spearheaded by China, in an effort to expand its influence and, in the view of certain groups within the Brazilian government, an offensive to instrumentalize the Brics.

With the bloc full of its allies, China could expand its power in the international debate, in decisions in international organizations and even in setting the agenda for debates at the UN.

For Brazil, this is a scenario that does not necessarily serve its interests. The fear in the Itamaraty is of a loss of national leadership among the emerging countries and the risk that the bloc becomes hostage to Beijing's strategic goals.

For this reason, in recent months, Itamaraty has insisted on defending the establishment of criteria that should be used for the entry of new members, as well as a regional balance. The objective was to allow Brazil's South American allies to take part, counterbalancing the arrival of Chinese allies.

What are the possible scenarios:

- New members of the Brics must first be members of the NDB, the bank of the Brics
- Bloc should favor the entry of members who are already part of the G20

On the table, there is the possibility that expansion will take place to include three to five new members. But that is only if there is consensus and criteria. In total, 22 countries have expressed interest in joining the alliance.

Risk of weakening Brazil's candidacy on the Security Council

But Chinese influence is not Brazil's only concern. One of the fears is that, with a greater number of members, the historic candidacy of Brazilians, Indians and South Africans for permanent seats on the UN Security Council will be weakened by internal competition between emerging countries.

Today, China is seen by Brazil as a government that does not want the expansion of the Security Council and that, behind the scenes, works against this idea. With the emerging bloc doubling in size and with Chinese allies, however, the doubt is whether the Brazilian candidacy would not end up being affected.

Another fear is that, without criteria, governments that organize future summits invite disputed regions to the table. For 2024, the presidency of the bloc will be Russia and nothing prevents Putin, to demonstrate his power, from inviting the leaders of Donetsk to the event.

Whatever the decision, it will redefine the borders between the powers and, on the part of the emerging powers, make it clear that the existence of a new bloc will challenge the supremacy established by Europe and the USA since the 18th century.

https://noticias.uol.com.br/colunas/jamil-chade/2023/08/21/brasil-vai-propor-embriao-de-moeda-dos-brics-em-cupula.htm
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Stranger in a strange land
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2023, 08:25:57 AM »
« Edited: August 21, 2023, 08:58:41 AM by Stranger in a strange land »

How would the BRICS currency avoid the issues that the Euro has faced, since the BRICS countries are much less-integrated and more unevenly developed than the Eurozone, and China, given its huge population and GDP, would be much more dominant within a BRICS monetary union than Germany is within the EU/Eurozone? 40% weight for the RMB sounds like a raw deal for China when it has 72% of the BRICS GDP (yes, you read that right. 72%).
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Former Dean Phillips Supporters for Haley (I guess???!?) 👁️
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2023, 08:42:23 AM »

How would the BRICS currency avoid the issues that the Euro has faced

Yep. It would be beyond idiotic for the BRICS countries to replicate the Euro's failures. Which I guess is naturally why Red Velvet seems to think it is a good idea.

My guess is that while perhaps some random delusional people in Brazil might want to do this, the Chinese leadership will be smart enough to want no part in it, and it will go nowhere as a result.



By all means, if Brazil or China or whoever wants to trade with each other using their own currencies, let them do so if they wish. But they don't need to create a new common currency that would work just as badly as the Euro in order to do that. They can just use their current currencies.
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2023, 10:05:22 AM »

Yeah, good luck with that.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2023, 10:19:12 AM »

What would it be called, the Pomposity?
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2023, 10:48:29 AM »

The GLOBAL SOUTH, shurely?
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Stranger in a strange land
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« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2023, 11:07:54 AM »

What would it be called, the Pomposity?


BRICScoin
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2023, 11:24:48 AM »

What would it be called, the Pomposity?

The sh**tty.

"-How much is this can of soda?
- Oh, it's only 28 billion sh**tties!"
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PSOL
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2023, 02:26:11 PM »

Common currencies are a bad idea
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2023, 10:35:57 PM »

lol k
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2023, 10:57:26 PM »

BRICS is a fake grouping invented by the perverts at The Economist, a shared currency between these countries with different cultures, languages, ideologies, political systems, economic systems, geographies, etc makes no sense.
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PSOL
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« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2023, 11:55:17 PM »

BRICS is a fake grouping invented by the perverts at The Economist, a shared currency between these countries with different cultures, languages, ideologies, political systems, economic systems, geographies, etc makes no sense.
And this differs from the EU how?
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2023, 09:28:08 AM »

Well the EU has at least some geographical commonality wouldn't you agree.
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2023, 09:56:18 AM »

Well the EU has at least some geographical commonality wouldn't you agree.

And a common history and culture and shared national interests...
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Cassius
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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2023, 10:19:44 AM »

Well the EU has at least some geographical commonality wouldn't you agree.

And a common history and culture and shared national interests...

Not really to be honest, especially not in its present format.

Obviously this wheeze won’t happen though.
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Sestak
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2023, 05:04:39 PM »

BRICS is a fake grouping invented by the perverts at The Economist, a shared currency between these countries with different cultures, languages, ideologies, political systems, economic systems, geographies, etc makes no sense.

Should just cut to the chase and call this what it is: a B currency. “RICS” (or at least “RIC”) has never really given a sh**t about any of this.
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Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦
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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2023, 01:52:03 AM »

Just the renminbi. It's more appropriate to compare the BRICS with the British Empire of the 19th century in its Chinese adaptation than with the EU.

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Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦
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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2023, 01:52:46 AM »

How would the BRICS currency avoid the issues that the Euro has faced, since the BRICS countries are much less-integrated and more unevenly developed than the Eurozone, and China, given its huge population and GDP, would be much more dominant within a BRICS monetary union than Germany is within the EU/Eurozone? 40% weight for the RMB sounds like a raw deal for China when it has 72% of the BRICS GDP (yes, you read that right. 72%).
This is very revealing.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2023, 08:57:46 AM »

Well the EU has at least some geographical commonality wouldn't you agree.

And a common history and culture and shared national interests...

Well that is true, but my reply was aimed at the previous poster.
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Red Velvet
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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2023, 11:13:26 AM »

Brazilian economist Paulo Nogueira Batista Jr. presents his currency proposal in a speech at South Africa during the XV BRICS summit:

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Red Velvet
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« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2023, 11:21:08 AM »







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« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2023, 02:00:33 PM »

Imagining Modi in some kind of Frasier plot where he has to represent India in the QUAD meeting and the Brics summit, both improbably booked at the same hotel at the same time.
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Red Velvet
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« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2023, 05:01:38 PM »

I’m hearing the group has reached an agreement for which countries will be included in the expansion.

A lot of discussion in this year edition was about the group expansion since 22 or 23 new countries applied for membership in 2022 or 2023 because of the Western crazy reaction to the Ukraine War.

Though all countries support expansion so that the group can have more validation as the largest voice for the Global South in this era like there has never been before, there was tons of debate about who should be included - with China supporting including everyone while Brazil for example supports a more limited expansion with defined criteria about who gets in.

New BRICS members will be:

- Saudi Arabia
- Iran
- UAE
- Argentina
- Egypt

We were always missing an Arab world representative, so expected that we would get more than one. Still, it’s a whole ton of them, which is good for Muslim representation.

Because of geographical balance, they’re in agreement to include a new African country soon in the future. Personally, I think Nigeria would make the most sense considering its size and potential.

Indonesia was considered a given by everyone but Indonesians said recently they weren’t in political conditions for inclusion in this moment. Jakarta could still be included in the future though.

I would be fine with a group of 12 members for the next 20 years tbh, to see how it works. The Original 5 + The New 5 + Indonesia and Nigeria (or other African country) added in-between.

Bangladesh is a question mark to me. I have no idea if it will enter tomorrow or if it’s considered for the future.

I really like the additions, though it leaves open room for future big inclusions, like Indonesia and Nigeria - which I think are necessary to have. Mexico would be cool too but extremely unlikely, though they manifested interest.

European countries should have no room IMO, exception maybe being Turkey. Which is why I like that Greece application to join didn’t go forward, if you’re an EU country there’s no way you can call yourself a part of the Global South.

About the additions themselves, why I favor them:

Egypt: Strategic geographical position, controlling the Suez Canal - which is extremely important for Europe’s supply through Asia. Egypt is also economically the 3rd most important country in Africa (behind South Africa and Nigeria), besides having a relevant military force.

Saudi Arabia and Iran: These two go together for me. I think it’s wonderful that a platform like BRICS can stimulate dialogue and a relationship between these two after US has attempted to pit one against the other for so damn long only for the sake of their self-interests. Very symbolic for both to join together. Alas, they’re both also extremely strategic for being two of the largest oil powerhouses in the world, having deep impact in its prices throughout the globe.

UAE: Benefits from already being part of the BRICS bank (one of the criteria used) and even if small in area, it’s economically bigger than South Africa, an OG member. Also one of the top 10 oil producers in the world, being an OPEC member.

Argentina: For the moment, probably weakest inclusion considering Milei’s future election, they’re bound to be an inactive member and dumb western stooges just as they join. Still, I think Brazil was totally correct to campaign for them for different reasonings:

A) As you welcome a bunch of non-democratic nations into board, it’s important to have some counterbalance in order to maintain the group’s original balance. Important for Brazil to also have a Latin American counterpart in an expanded grouping.

B) Despite their current crisis, Argentina is a major commodity exporter and still in the top 25 global economies, ahead of South Africa, UAE, Egypt. Also a G20 country, which is one of the criteria established.

C) Forces Milei to have pragmatic diplomatic relationship with China and Brazil like he despises lmaaaaaao. And if he’s so stupid to try to go out of a major geopolitical active, we can just invite someone else in their place - probably Nigeria - to keep it at 10.
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Cashew
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« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2023, 08:53:06 PM »
« Edited: August 23, 2023, 09:20:47 PM by Cashew »


C) Forces Milei to have pragmatic diplomatic relationship with China and Brazil like he despises lmaaaaaao. And if he’s so stupid to try to go out of a major geopolitical active, we can just invite someone else in their place - probably Nigeria - to keep it at 10.

Forces him to have better relations how? If Argentina joins for a few months and does nothing in the meantime what stops Milei from just leaving? Not to mention it would look pretty ridiculous for a group of countries that want to reduce reliance on the Western financial system to simultaneous have a member move in the opposite direction and move towards dollarization. Even assuming Brazil somehow persuaded Milei to adopt the Real instead, or a brics currency board/coin, or a gold standard like libertarians here in the U.S. want, anthing but the Dollar Argentine society is already de factor dolllarizing, unless Lula has a plan to convince Argentine Buinesses to reverse that Brazil will soon suffer a major geopolitical defeat.

As for future enlargement I am suprised there was not more talk of Algeria joining. With hindsight though maybe they just don't want to go from 0 muslim majority countries to suddenly muslim majority countries being the majority of member states.  
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Red Velvet
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2023, 03:02:48 AM »
« Edited: August 24, 2023, 03:39:01 AM by Red Velvet »

I didn’t say better, I said forces to have diplomatic relations lol. Because the guy is an isolationist crazy apple a la Bolsonaro, who attacked China for “communism” and Brazil for having a leftist president, but despite its supposedly “pro-western” nature in theory, has also called Joe Biden a socialist lmaaaao

So I put Milei in the same “Pro-Western” camp as Bolsonaro for now, initially pro-western but bound to have conflicts if he perceives US and Europe leaders as too woke and socialist for his extremist standards. Bolsonaro was really “Anti-China” rethorically only in his first two years, which changed after he lost Trump.

Probably a Trump 2024 election would bring validation to Milei positions, as the “West” these people identify with is the ~White conservative~ side. One thing is political rhetoric though, another one is pragmatism.

I’m not sure Argentina is locked though, it’s insiders talk in the media I’m hearing. It’s mainly Lula/Brazil using their weight pushing for them if they get in though, as they don’t seem that interested now post-election. There might be surprise inclusions or exclusions in the announcement.

I think Saudi Arabia is the most likely out of all. Then there are other 6 or 7 other countries that are viable candidates but there are mixed reports about their entrance or not. Besides the ones I mentioned, Indonesia and Bangladesh might be possibilities but idk if they’re really in or who would be out in their place, because I doubt more than 5 are announced.

Brazilian media was throwing these five names though, with Indonesia being a strong candidate that asked for more time but I’m not sure that’s confirmed. Different sources said different stuff and that Indonesia is actually in. Who knows the truth? idk

Iran apparently wasn’t in, because Saudi Arabia was getting in instead, but the Iranian campaign to join was reportedly really strong. It weights that is has good relationship with all the original 5 as well. We’ll see, I think it would be cool if they both get in. But if it’s just one, it will be the Saudis.
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