English translations of the Bible

[MODU]

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Maybe he is one of the four that have you on ignore.

[12th Doctor]

I don't see any reason he would.  I just think he doesn't want to walk into an obvious trap.

Anyone else care to take an honest whack at it, so that way I can get my point accross?

[12th Doctor]

Well, while I am waiting for someone to step-up to the plate, I guess I will get my second point about the KJV out of the way, and that is that the accuracy of the translations themselves is highly questionable.  Fans of the KJV will tell you that the scholars went back and translated it directly from the Greek texts.  Even if we never, historically, that this wasn't true, it would still be a mental stretch, because the Vatican, techincally the Lateran, at this time, held almost all the Greek texts at the time, and we know they didn't give them to the Protestants.

Acctually, the translation that the writters of the KJV came from Erasmus' Greek translations, which have not only been proven to be erroneous in several cases, but also add even another layer to the translation, as those then had to be translated into English (I believe the texts were in Latin, as Erasmus was know to write only in Latin).

Now, add onto that the political motives of those assembling the text.  Many say there weren't any, but one instance make it clear that there was at least one obvious case where this was not so.  Until fairly recently, the KJV had Paul saving "Man is justified through faith alone".  The problem is, Paul never said "alone".  That was something that was added by Luther because thought it "should" be there.  Luther was no scholar, and anyone who went back to the Greek can clearly see it isn't there.  The addition of the word "alone" completely changes the meaning of the text to suit the purposes of Protestants.  That one word means the Catholic Church must be wrong.  If only it were there... but wait, we can just put it there and pretend, right?  Well, that's what they did.

More over, the texts that do "paraphrase" (NAB, NIV) only do so where the passage of time has obscured the meaning of the text so much as to render it ununderstandable by the reader.  In otherwords, when the expanse of culture and language have changed so much that peopel simply won't understand what is being said.

A lot of people hold onto the KJV because with all its "formal" language, it just sounds holier than other version, which must be bastardized because they are written in vernacular.  Well, I seem to recall there was a time when Protestants attacked the Catholic Church for remaining Latin based because the Church supposedly presumed that Latin was a holier language.  What makes clinging to the KJV any different?

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Not applicable.

[Gabu]

A lot of people hold onto the KJV because with all its "formal" language, it just sounds holier than other version

Don't get me started on the notion of "Biblical English"...

[12th Doctor]

A lot of people hold onto the KJV because with all its "formal" language, it just sounds holier than other version

Don't get me started on the notion of "Biblical English"...

Thing is, there is nothing formal about it.  That was vernacular back then.  Just as Latin was the vernacular when the RCC started using it.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Why don't they update for the times/

[Gabu]

A lot of people hold onto the KJV because with all its "formal" language, it just sounds holier than other version

Don't get me started on the notion of "Biblical English"...

Thing is, there is nothing formal about it.  That was vernacular back then.  Just as Latin was the vernacular when the RCC started using it.

I know.  I'm just saying, I've heard people honest to God refer to the stuff in the KJV as "Biblical English", and I just shake my head at the ignorance.

[12th Doctor]

Why don't they update for the times/

Because, when they do, Pastor Bob at the First Bible Baptist throws a sh**t fit and claims that Catholics (read anti-Christ) are influencing the good Christians.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

The "joys" of fundies.

[Josh/Devilman88]

How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?

Yes I can understand the KJV, I've been reading since I was born.

Oh can you?  Then why won't you answer my questions?

Sorry, what was your question?

[12th Doctor]

How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?

Yes I can understand the KJV, I've been reading since I was born.

Oh can you?  Then why won't you answer my questions?

Sorry, what was your question?

KJV.  Easily the best-written.

Best written.  Worst translation.

I use the New American Catholic Version.

If I want to go for style, I use the St. Ignatius

How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Hmmm, hadn't realized how old this topic is.  Very well, just for starters Josh, if you would, please give me the meaning of the following phrases from popular literature.

1) "Wherefore art thou Romeo?"

2) "Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"

3) "Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."

4) "He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."

Moreover, would you please tell me what the difference between "you" and "thou" is?

How about the difference between "here", "there", "where" and "hither", "whither" and "thither"?

[Josh/Devilman88]

How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?

Yes I can understand the KJV, I've been reading since I was born.

Oh can you?  Then why won't you answer my questions?

Sorry, what was your question?

KJV.  Easily the best-written.

Best written.  Worst translation.

I use the New American Catholic Version.

If I want to go for style, I use the St. Ignatius

How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Hmmm, hadn't realized how old this topic is.  Very well, just for starters Josh, if you would, please give me the meaning of the following phrases from popular literature.

1) "Wherefore art thou Romeo?"

2) "Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"

3) "Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."

4) "He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."

Moreover, would you please tell me what the difference between "you" and "thou" is?

How about the difference between "here", "there", "where" and "hither", "whither" and "thither"?

OK let see...

1)"Wherefore art thou Romeo?"-- Where are you Romeo?
2)"Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"-- That God's mercy is much needed in life, and person is talking to the people of Scotland.
3)"Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."-- When people make judgement on you, step back and see if the judgement they are making is true, but you don't judge other people because only God can judge others.
4)"He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."-- One who is smart enough to play the role of a fool requires him to be very smart at the game.

[Josh/Devilman88]

In the NACV I call Satan Jesus. The two versus below are from the NACV. They both are talking about the morning star

Isaiah
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!


Rev
22 16 I, Jesus, sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and offspring of David,  the bright morning star


Now in the KJV this is what it says...
I
sa
14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Rev
22: 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

[memphis]

It doesn't really matter what Bible people own. Pastors, often with an overt political agenda, tell people what to believe, cherry picking verses out of context to suit their needs.

[MODU]

I have a copy called the "Simple English" Bible, thinking it would be a good teaching tool for others.  Unfortunately, they try too hard to make the sentences short and simple that they cut out parts of the message and use words that don't provide the same meaning as the conventional translations.  Needless to say, it now sits on the shelf.  I use to use a Bible that had the four major translations all on one page.  So, say you open up to some chapter... in the first column was the King James version, then the American Standard.  On the other side of the crease was the New International Version and something else.  It proved to be a better study Bible, but way too big to carry around constantly.  I now have the New American Standard and a copy translated from one of the earlier Greek versions ... said to be more accurate.  They do have the correction of "Thou shall not murder" vice the incorrect translation "Thou shall not kill," for example.

[12th Doctor]

OK let see...

1)"Wherefore art thou Romeo?"-- Where are you Romeo?
2)"Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"-- That God's mercy is much needed in life, and person is talking to the people of Scotland.
3)"Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."-- When people make judgement on you, step back and see if the judgement they are making is true, but you don't judge other people because only God can judge others.
4)"He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."-- One who is smart enough to play the role of a fool requires him to be very smart at the game.

1 1/2 out of 4, not bad at all, since most people wouldn't have gotten a single one.

1) No.  "Wherefore" back in that time did not mean "where" at all.  It meant "Why".  She is asking, "Why are you Romeo?"  In other words, "why couldn't you be anyone else".

2) I'll give you half on that one, because your answer didn't hit the point.  The word "silly" didn't start out meaning what it means today.  It started out as the English equivlent to the German "sehlig"(sp) which means "blessed".  So, we have sentences that go "Silly, art thou, Virgin Mary".  If something is "blessed" then it is thought to be "innocent", so the word changed to mean that.  So, when the guy says "Silly Scotland" he is saying "Innocent Scotland".  It then changed to mean helpless, which then came to mean foolish.

3) No.  Censure was not "comdemnation" back then.  To take someone censure meant to "size them up".  So, modern words, what is beign said is "Size each man up (or observe him), but don't talk about it" which is much better advice than what one thinks is being said.

4) Correct.  But wit back then meant, exclusively, knowledge or mind.  Today, of course, it means to be funny in a highbrow kind of way.

You didn't answer the other parts, so I will just go through those.

People think of "thou" as being this formal thing, when in reality, it is nothing of the sort.  "Thou" acctually used to be the 2nd Person Singular in the English language.  "You" was the 2nd person plural.  "You" was also used as the formal singular, in otherwords, when you were talking to someone of a recongnizably higher social station, whereas "Thou" was used in informal situations.  Almost all Indo-European languages make an established distinction between "you" singular (and familiar) and "you" plural (and formal) except Modern English.  For some reason (I have a theory) "thou" fell out of the language and was taken over by "you".  People today try to compensate for the loss with "yous", "yinz" and "y'all".

As for here, there and where and hither, thither and whither:

"Here" was only used to describe where you were, right now.  If you wanted someone to come to you, you would say "come hither".  "There" was only to describe the location of a place.  If you wanted someone to "go there" you would say "go thither".  Same idea with "whither".

The point I am trying to make is that, it isn't just bad translation that murks the KJV.  The KJV is rife with these little examples of places where the language has changed.  Not understanding those changes can completely change the way someone views a passage of the Bible (and Shakespear, for that matter).  Most peeple have to go through years of training in English Language history to understand the changes.  Something tells me that Pastor Bob at the First Bible Baptist KJV only church doesn't understand these changes.

That is the only advantage that the Catholic Church had over the Protestants for all those years having Bibles in Latin.  Latin is a dead language.  If no longer changes or evolves.  English is changing all the time.

[Democratic Hawk]

I'm certain the one on my bedside cabinet is the Authorized / King James Version

Dave

[Josh/Devilman88]

In the NACV I call Satan Jesus. The two versus below are from the NACV. They both are talking about the morning star

Isaiah
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!


Rev
22 16 I, Jesus, sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and offspring of David,  the bright morning star


Now in the KJV this is what it says...
I
sa
14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Rev
22: 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Supersoulty.. what do you have to say about this?

[12th Doctor]

In the NACV I call Satan Jesus. The two versus below are from the NACV. They both are talking about the morning star

Isaiah
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!


Rev
22 16 I, Jesus, sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and offspring of David,  the bright morning star


Now in the KJV this is what it says...
I
sa
14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Rev
22: 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Supersoulty.. what do you have to say about this?

This is what happens where you try to take two completely different texts, with two seperate contexts and run a comparison.

It is an established fact that Satan was known as the Morning Star.  Lucifer means "The Light Bringer" or, in context "The Morning Star".  It is a direct translation.  DIRECT.  The NACV simply translated it out of Latin.

The two passages probably have nothing to do with one another, theologically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

[Bacon King]

http://www.crivoice.org/lucifer.html

But this is not quite as obvious as it sounds even in Latin. The term Lucifer in fourth century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star. The Latin word Lucifer is composed of two words:  lux, or in the genitive form used lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre, which means "to bear" or "to bring."  So, the word Lucifer means bearer of light.

[12th Doctor]

http://www.crivoice.org/lucifer.html

But this is not quite as obvious as it sounds even in Latin. The term Lucifer in fourth century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star. The Latin word Lucifer is composed of two words:  lux, or in the genitive form used lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre, which means "to bear" or "to bring."  So, the word Lucifer means bearer of light.

Indeed.

[Josh/Devilman88]

supersoulty how do you get saved?

[12th Doctor]

supersoulty how do you get saved?

Alright, now we are talking.  I was waiting for this thing to get moving.  Let me assemble my resources.  This shoudln't take too long.

[12th Doctor]

supersoulty how do you get saved?

Acctually, if I might, I would like to ask for your opinion first.

Its a thing with me, I always like the other person to shoot first, it gives me a place to start from.