Should Russia be abolished?

[TheReckoning]

Should Russia, being a bearer of militarism and reactionary politics, be abolished if it collapses?

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

It's a strange question. Russia can be abolished only as a result of total nuclear annihilation, which no one will do, not even Medvedev, who constantly threatens to do so. We can only talk about the breakup of Putin's structure or, at most, the breakup of the Russian Federation into new states, for example, the formation of the Russian Republic.

[CumbrianLefty]

When was the last time a nation state was "abolished" then. You surely have to go back a while.

[Pericles]

I guess the OP has never been to Berlin and Tokyo and thinks the people there are still genocidal fascists.

[Lord Halifax]

When was the last time a nation state was "abolished" then. You surely have to go back a while.

the Russian Federation isn't really a nation state even if it has a dominant ethnicity, it's arguably either an empire or a civilization state depending on your perspective

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

When was the last time a nation state was "abolished" then. You surely have to go back a while.

the Russian Federation isn't really a nation state even if it has a dominant ethnicity, it's arguably either an empire or a civilization state depending on your perspective

Yes, you are right. Here is what, for example, Margarita Simonyan, one of the main ruscist propagandists, writes:

https://t.me/margaritasimonyan/13077

На Западе не понимают нас. И то, что вы сейчас сказали, Феликс, — это косвенно подтверждает, до какой степени вы нас не понимаете. Я армянка чистокровная, во мне нет ни капли другой крови. И я русская, понимаете? Вот мы такие люди. И может быть, когда там это поймут, они перестанут тратить огромные деньги на разобщение нас. Нас можно расстроить и разобщить по другому поводу, но не по этому. Не получается, зараза, сколько раз вы пробовали. Не вы лично, Феликс, я имею в виду те силы, те страны, которые вы представляете. Слава тебе, Господи, не получается. И с каждой такой попыткой вооруженного мятежа, с каждой такой СВО, с каждым сожженным Домом профсоюзов в Одессе, с каждым нажимом на нас все меньше и меньше у вас получается.

Machine translate:

The West does not understand us.  And what you just said, Felix, indirectly confirms to what extent you do not understand us.  I am a purebred Armenian, there is not a drop of other blood in me.  And I'm Russian, you know?  Here we are such people.  And maybe, when they understand this, they will stop spending a lot of money to divide us.  We can be upset and divided on another occasion, but not on this one.  It doesn't work, damn, how many times have you tried.  Not you personally, Felix, I mean those forces, those countries that you represent.  Thank you, Lord, it doesn't work.  And with each such attempt at an armed rebellion, with each such SMO, with each burned down House of Trade Unions in Odessa, with each pressure on us, you get less and less.

Although the ruscists attach great importance to "blood" and refuse to recognize as Russian a person whose great-grandmother was non-Russian, for utilitarian purposes they simultaneously preserve the imperial understanding of the nation, which was preserved by the classic Russian fascists:

Rodzaevsky's definition of Russian nationalism did not define Russianness in ethnic terms so much as in terms of a "common historical destiny", which meant that provided that they were loyal the Russian state (with the exception of the Jews who Rodzaevsky saw as born disloyal), all of the non-Russian ethnic groups were to be considered "Russian".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Fascist_Party

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

When was the last time a nation state was "abolished" then. You surely have to go back a while.

the Russian Federation isn't really a nation state even if it has a dominant ethnicity, it's arguably either an empire or a civilization state depending on your perspective

Yes, you are right. Here is what, for example, Margarita Simonyan, one of the main ruscist propagandists, writes:

https://t.me/margaritasimonyan/13077

На Западе не понимают нас. И то, что вы сейчас сказали, Феликс, — это косвенно подтверждает, до какой степени вы нас не понимаете. Я армянка чистокровная, во мне нет ни капли другой крови. И я русская, понимаете? Вот мы такие люди. И может быть, когда там это поймут, они перестанут тратить огромные деньги на разобщение нас. Нас можно расстроить и разобщить по другому поводу, но не по этому. Не получается, зараза, сколько раз вы пробовали. Не вы лично, Феликс, я имею в виду те силы, те страны, которые вы представляете. Слава тебе, Господи, не получается. И с каждой такой попыткой вооруженного мятежа, с каждой такой СВО, с каждым сожженным Домом профсоюзов в Одессе, с каждым нажимом на нас все меньше и меньше у вас получается.

Machine translate:

The West does not understand us.  And what you just said, Felix, indirectly confirms to what extent you do not understand us.  I am a purebred Armenian, there is not a drop of other blood in me.  And I'm Russian, you know?  Here we are such people.  And maybe, when they understand this, they will stop spending a lot of money to divide us.  We can be upset and divided on another occasion, but not on this one.  It doesn't work, damn, how many times have you tried.  Not you personally, Felix, I mean those forces, those countries that you represent.  Thank you, Lord, it doesn't work.  And with each such attempt at an armed rebellion, with each such SMO, with each burned down House of Trade Unions in Odessa, with each pressure on us, you get less and less.

Although the ruscists attach great importance to "blood" and refuse to recognize as Russian a person whose great-grandmother was non-Russian, for utilitarian purposes they simultaneously preserve the imperial understanding of the nation, which was preserved by the classic Russian fascists:

Rodzaevsky's definition of Russian nationalism did not define Russianness in ethnic terms so much as in terms of a "common historical destiny", which meant that provided that they were loyal the Russian state (with the exception of the Jews who Rodzaevsky saw as born disloyal), all of the non-Russian ethnic groups were to be considered "Russian".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Fascist_Party

Russia has a huge number of minority groups in its territory. It would have been very strange if they refused membership in the Russian nation anyone of non-ethnic Russian blood, that would in fact be the quickest way to unravel Russia.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Russia should be divided by the Ural Mountains between West Russia and East Russia, where West Russia is occupied by a confederation of EU states who maintain Russia's unique and distinctive cultural heritage and way of life, but eliminate its capability for military action while slowly weaning its people off their predilection for hyper-aggressive masculine authoritarian strongmen.  East Russia can become another administrative zone of China (presumably necessary to get China on board since they wouldn't want a western state setting up nuclear weapons in Nizhny-Novgorod).  All nuclear weapons are destroyed under joint oversight of the remaining UN-recognized nuclear powers (not Israel or North Korea).

[pppolitics]

It's a strange question. Russia can be abolished only as a result of total nuclear annihilation, which no one will do, not even Medvedev, who constantly threatens to do so. We can only talk about the breakup of Putin's structure or, at most, the breakup of the Russian Federation into new states, for example, the formation of the Russian Republic.

That's not true at all.

After all, the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore and it wasn't the result of "total nuclear annihilation"

[FT-02 Senator A.F.E. 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

Yes, and on its ashes, it should be replaced with a second Golden Horde

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

It's a strange question. Russia can be abolished only as a result of total nuclear annihilation, which no one will do, not even Medvedev, who constantly threatens to do so. We can only talk about the breakup of Putin's structure or, at most, the breakup of the Russian Federation into new states, for example, the formation of the Russian Republic.

That's not true at all.

After all, the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore and it wasn't the result of "total nuclear annihilation"

The Soviet Union had constituent states with their own borders to split into. Present-day Russia doesn't seem to split nearly as easily along regional lines. The break-up would be messier, and there is also far less public support for it.

It's quite conceivable to imagine Russia retreating from the various occupied regions and perhaps losing territory to separatist movements in the Caucusus, but this would still leave the state with the vast majority of its land, population and national character. Claims to the contrary are necessary for the state to frame its imperial project as existential and therefore continue it, but it is generally unhelpful for anyone who opposes the Russian war machine to pretend the nation is at serious risk of disintegration.

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

It's a strange question. Russia can be abolished only as a result of total nuclear annihilation, which no one will do, not even Medvedev, who constantly threatens to do so. We can only talk about the breakup of Putin's structure or, at most, the breakup of the Russian Federation into new states, for example, the formation of the Russian Republic.

That's not true at all.

After all, the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore and it wasn't the result of "total nuclear annihilation"

Obviously, you perceive the word "Russia" as any state in the government of which the majority are Russians.

But actually Russia is a country. The USSR was not Russia at all, it included a Russian state called the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, in that the Bolsheviks renamed the Russian Democratic Federal Republic when they usurped it, and the RSFSR seceded from the USSR in the same way as other Soviet republics, and became the Russian Federation. Whereas Russia has not abolished not once since the time when Peter the Great created it.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

It's a strange question. Russia can be abolished only as a result of total nuclear annihilation, which no one will do, not even Medvedev, who constantly threatens to do so. We can only talk about the breakup of Putin's structure or, at most, the breakup of the Russian Federation into new states, for example, the formation of the Russian Republic.

That's not true at all.

After all, the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore and it wasn't the result of "total nuclear annihilation"

Obviously, you perceive the word "Russia" as any state in the government of which the majority are Russians.

But actually Russia is a country.The USSR was not Russia at all, it included a Russian state called the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, which the Bolsheviks renamed the Russian Democratic Federal Republic when they usurped it, and the RSFSR seceded from the USSR in the same way as other Soviet republics, and became the Russian Federation. Whereas Russia has not abolished anywhere since the time when Peter the Great created it.

Looking at census results, the old USSR was Russian majority in 1989, but this % was on track to become a mere plurality by the time the next census came around. Apparently, if Wikipedia is anything to go by, there were some speculation this would have happened in 1970!

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

When was the last time a nation state was "abolished" then. You surely have to go back a while.

the Russian Federation isn't really a nation state even if it has a dominant ethnicity, it's arguably either an empire or a civilization state depending on your perspective

Yes, you are right. Here is what, for example, Margarita Simonyan, one of the main ruscist propagandists, writes:

https://t.me/margaritasimonyan/13077

На Западе не понимают нас. И то, что вы сейчас сказали, Феликс, — это косвенно подтверждает, до какой степени вы нас не понимаете. Я армянка чистокровная, во мне нет ни капли другой крови. И я русская, понимаете? Вот мы такие люди. И может быть, когда там это поймут, они перестанут тратить огромные деньги на разобщение нас. Нас можно расстроить и разобщить по другому поводу, но не по этому. Не получается, зараза, сколько раз вы пробовали. Не вы лично, Феликс, я имею в виду те силы, те страны, которые вы представляете. Слава тебе, Господи, не получается. И с каждой такой попыткой вооруженного мятежа, с каждой такой СВО, с каждым сожженным Домом профсоюзов в Одессе, с каждым нажимом на нас все меньше и меньше у вас получается.

Machine translate:

The West does not understand us.  And what you just said, Felix, indirectly confirms to what extent you do not understand us.  I am a purebred Armenian, there is not a drop of other blood in me.  And I'm Russian, you know?  Here we are such people.  And maybe, when they understand this, they will stop spending a lot of money to divide us.  We can be upset and divided on another occasion, but not on this one.  It doesn't work, damn, how many times have you tried.  Not you personally, Felix, I mean those forces, those countries that you represent.  Thank you, Lord, it doesn't work.  And with each such attempt at an armed rebellion, with each such SMO, with each burned down House of Trade Unions in Odessa, with each pressure on us, you get less and less.

Although the ruscists attach great importance to "blood" and refuse to recognize as Russian a person whose great-grandmother was non-Russian, for utilitarian purposes they simultaneously preserve the imperial understanding of the nation, which was preserved by the classic Russian fascists:

Rodzaevsky's definition of Russian nationalism did not define Russianness in ethnic terms so much as in terms of a "common historical destiny", which meant that provided that they were loyal the Russian state (with the exception of the Jews who Rodzaevsky saw as born disloyal), all of the non-Russian ethnic groups were to be considered "Russian".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Fascist_Party

Russia has a huge number of minority groups in its territory. It would have been very strange if they refused membership in the Russian nation anyone of non-ethnic Russian blood, that would in fact be the quickest way to unravel Russia.

This misunderstanding is due to the difference between Russian and English languages.

There are two different words in the Russian language: "русский" (Russian), that is, wholly belonging to Russian culture and thinking in Russian, and "россиянин" (Rossijanin), a citizen of Russia who can preserve a culture different from Russian and who can not know the Russian language at all. Simonyan used the first word, not the second. Just like Rodzaevsky.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

When was the last time a nation state was "abolished" then. You surely have to go back a while.

the Russian Federation isn't really a nation state even if it has a dominant ethnicity, it's arguably either an empire or a civilization state depending on your perspective

Yes, you are right. Here is what, for example, Margarita Simonyan, one of the main ruscist propagandists, writes:

https://t.me/margaritasimonyan/13077

На Западе не понимают нас. И то, что вы сейчас сказали, Феликс, — это косвенно подтверждает, до какой степени вы нас не понимаете. Я армянка чистокровная, во мне нет ни капли другой крови. И я русская, понимаете? Вот мы такие люди. И может быть, когда там это поймут, они перестанут тратить огромные деньги на разобщение нас. Нас можно расстроить и разобщить по другому поводу, но не по этому. Не получается, зараза, сколько раз вы пробовали. Не вы лично, Феликс, я имею в виду те силы, те страны, которые вы представляете. Слава тебе, Господи, не получается. И с каждой такой попыткой вооруженного мятежа, с каждой такой СВО, с каждым сожженным Домом профсоюзов в Одессе, с каждым нажимом на нас все меньше и меньше у вас получается.

Machine translate:

The West does not understand us.  And what you just said, Felix, indirectly confirms to what extent you do not understand us.  I am a purebred Armenian, there is not a drop of other blood in me.  And I'm Russian, you know?  Here we are such people.  And maybe, when they understand this, they will stop spending a lot of money to divide us.  We can be upset and divided on another occasion, but not on this one.  It doesn't work, damn, how many times have you tried.  Not you personally, Felix, I mean those forces, those countries that you represent.  Thank you, Lord, it doesn't work.  And with each such attempt at an armed rebellion, with each such SMO, with each burned down House of Trade Unions in Odessa, with each pressure on us, you get less and less.

Although the ruscists attach great importance to "blood" and refuse to recognize as Russian a person whose great-grandmother was non-Russian, for utilitarian purposes they simultaneously preserve the imperial understanding of the nation, which was preserved by the classic Russian fascists:

Rodzaevsky's definition of Russian nationalism did not define Russianness in ethnic terms so much as in terms of a "common historical destiny", which meant that provided that they were loyal the Russian state (with the exception of the Jews who Rodzaevsky saw as born disloyal), all of the non-Russian ethnic groups were to be considered "Russian".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Fascist_Party

Russia has a huge number of minority groups in its territory. It would have been very strange if they refused membership in the Russian nation anyone of non-ethnic Russian blood, that would in fact be the quickest way to unravel Russia.

This misunderstanding is due to the difference between Russian and English languages.

There are two different words in the Russian language: "русский" (Russian), that is, wholly belonging to Russian culture and thinking in Russian, and "россиянин" (Rossijanin), a citizen of Russia who can preserve a culture different from Russian and who can not know the Russian language at all. Simonyan used the first word, not the second. Just like Rodzaevsky.

It might be better to translate these two terms as "ethnic Russian" and "Russian national/citizen" in cases there is any confusion. To the extent this is already done, it tends to be in cases where it's especially obvious or stark (see: many ethnic Russians in Ukraine standing by Ukraine in the ongoing war). But perhaps, the sheer differences between these two things in meaning is not well understood enough.
Does Russian have the same distinguishing kind of terminology for Ukrainians?

[smoltchanov]

No. By thousands of historic and presently actual reasons.

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

It might be better to translate these two terms as "ethnic Russian" and "Russian national/citizen" in cases there is any confusion. To the extent this is already done, it tends to be in cases where it's especially obvious or stark (see: many ethnic Russians in Ukraine standing by Ukraine in the ongoing war). But perhaps, the sheer differences between these two things in meaning is not well understood enough.

Personally, it seems to me that "русский" and "ethnic Russian" are slightly different, since "русским" in Russian society can be considered a person who has been assimilated in the first generation, has not yet lost roots with his real ethnos and has not yet been fully accepted by the Russian ethnos. But for convenience, we can use this translation, yes.

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

Does Russian have the same distinguishing kind of terminology for Ukrainians?

Smoltchanov answered exactly. The situation of Ukrainians from the point of view of the Russian language is completely different from that of Russians. Although Russians have many names for Ukrainians. These are the old derisive name "хохлы", the new insulting names "укры", "укропы", "укропитеки", "салоеды", "свинособаки", etc., and the name that Russian imperialists and ruscists like: "малороссы" i.e. "Little Russians", which, as it were, implies that they are a sub-ethnos of "великороссы" i.e. "Great Russians", as the Russian imperialists call themselves. This means that Ukrainians differ from Russians no more than, for example, the O-sounded Vologdians or the whip-wielding Cossacks.

[Middle-aged Europe]

I guess the OP has never been to Berlin and Tokyo and thinks the people there are still genocidal fascists.

Well, Germany was at least temporarily "abolished" and split into West Germany, East Germany, Austria, Saarland (joined West Germany in '57), the separate de jure entities of West Berlin and East Berlin, as well as the Kaliningrad Oblast, and a couple of Polish voivodeships.

In 1990 a partial restoration - sans Austria and the Polish and Russian territories - happened.

[Lord Halifax]

I guess the OP has never been to Berlin and Tokyo and thinks the people there are still genocidal fascists.

Well, Germany was at least temporarily "abolished" and split into West Germany, East Germany, Austria, Saarland (joined West Germany in '57), the separate de jure entities of West Berlin and East Berlin, as well as the Kaliningrad Oblast, and a couple of Polish voivodeships.

In 1990 a partial restoration - sans Austria and the Polish and Russian territories - happened.

But Germany was never dissolved into its pre-unification parts; and West Germany saw itself as a continuation of "the German state" and asserted fundamental continuity with the state.

which, to quote Wiki:

"had embodied the unified German people since the Frankfurt Parliament of 1848, and which from 1871 had been represented within the German Reich."

It still celebrated the irredentist and supremacist (Germans as a more advanced  and vital nation than Poles, Czechs, Danes etc.) 1848 "liberal" nationalism, acknowledged the German Empire as a legitimate state despite its numerous crimes in e.g. Africa and continued to name institutions after the warmonger Bismarck. Ideally it should have been a generic Central European Federation with neutral non-German national symbols and German should have gradually been phased out in favor of English as its official language. A clean break with the past followed by systematic denationalization.

I don't see any realistic path to destroying the Russian state, but if we ever find a way to eliminate the Russian nuclear arsenal there would need a far more radical break with the past for Russia suppressing any ideas of Russian "greatness" and "unique civilization" and introducing the death penalty for expressions of Russian nationalism after dissolving the federation into disarmed regional states with a permanent Western military presence. Ideally there should a repopulation of Russia with refugees from Africa and Asia which in time would reduce ethnic Russians to a minority.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Does Russian have the same distinguishing kind of terminology for Ukrainians?

Smoltchanov answered exactly. The situation of Ukrainians from the point of view of the Russian language is completely different from that of Russians. Although Russians have many names for Ukrainians. These are the old derisive name "хохлы", the new insulting names "укры", "укропы", "укропитеки", "салоеды", "свинособаки", etc., and the name that Russian imperialists and ruscists like: "малороссы" i.e. "Little Russians", which, as it were, implies that they are a sub-ethnos of "великороссы" i.e. "Great Russians", as the Russian imperialists call themselves. This means that Ukrainians differ from Russians no more than, for example, the O-sounded Vologdians or the whip-wielding Cossacks.

My question was asking more like "does Russian have a term for Ukrainian by citizenship and another for Ukrainian by ethnicity". Though this reply is more interesting and it should have occurred to me a fair number of terms would exist, not just two or three.

[Middle-aged Europe]

I guess the OP has never been to Berlin and Tokyo and thinks the people there are still genocidal fascists.

Well, Germany was at least temporarily "abolished" and split into West Germany, East Germany, Austria, Saarland (joined West Germany in '57), the separate de jure entities of West Berlin and East Berlin, as well as the Kaliningrad Oblast, and a couple of Polish voivodeships.

In 1990 a partial restoration - sans Austria and the Polish and Russian territories - happened.

But Germany was never dissolved into its pre-unification parts; and West Germany saw itself as a continuation of "the German state" and asserted fundamental continuity with the state.

which, to quote Wiki:

"had embodied the unified German people since the Frankfurt Parliament of 1848, and which from 1871 had been represented within the German Reich."

It still celebrated the irredentist and supremacist (Germans as a more advanced  and vital nation than Poles, Czechs, Danes etc.) 1848 "liberal" nationalism, acknowledged the German Empire as a legitimate state despite its numerous crimes in e.g. Africa and continued to name institutions after the warmonger Bismarck. Ideally it should have been a generic Central European Federation with neutral non-German national symbols and German should have gradually been phased out in favor of English as its official language. A clean break with the past followed by systematic denationalization.

I don't see any realistic path to destroying the Russian state, but if we ever find a way to eliminate the Russian nuclear arsenal there would need a far more radical break with the past for Russia suppressing any ideas of Russian "greatness" and "unique civilization" and introducing the death penalty for expressions of Russian nationalism after dissolving the federation into disarmed regional states with a permanent Western military presence. Ideally there should a repopulation of Russia with refugees from Africa and Asia which in time would reduce ethnic Russians to a minority.

Well, similarly a dissolved Russia could very well also leave us with some sort of a Russian "core" rump state which claims legal successorship to the previously larger nation (which could of course open up another can of worms if said state sees full "restoration" as one of its goals).

As for "But Germany was never dissolved into its pre-unification parts"... interestingly, while Germany was actually never dissolved into its pre-unification parts, the sub-national pre-unification parts itself were. Between 1945 and 1952 the traditional German states underwent a radical restructuring, of which the most important one was probably the formal dissolution of Prussia. Out of the current 16 states, seven had existed prior to 1945 in some form, albeit partly with radically different borders.

[Person Man]

If it can’t be reformed, it should be.

[Person Man]

It's a strange question. Russia can be abolished only as a result of total nuclear annihilation, which no one will do, not even Medvedev, who constantly threatens to do so. We can only talk about the breakup of Putin's structure or, at most, the breakup of the Russian Federation into new states, for example, the formation of the Russian Republic.

That’s what I think of when I think of “abolished”.

[pppolitics]

It's a strange question. Russia can be abolished only as a result of total nuclear annihilation, which no one will do, not even Medvedev, who constantly threatens to do so. We can only talk about the breakup of Putin's structure or, at most, the breakup of the Russian Federation into new states, for example, the formation of the Russian Republic.

That's not true at all.

After all, the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore and it wasn't the result of "total nuclear annihilation"

The Soviet Union had constituent states with their own borders to split into. Present-day Russia doesn't seem to split nearly as easily along regional lines. The break-up would be messier, and there is also far less public support for it.

It's quite conceivable to imagine Russia retreating from the various occupied regions and perhaps losing territory to separatist movements in the Caucusus, but this would still leave the state with the vast majority of its land, population and national character. Claims to the contrary are necessary for the state to frame its imperial project as existential and therefore continue it, but it is generally unhelpful for anyone who opposes the Russian war machine to pretend the nation is at serious risk of disintegration.