Supreme Court to decide whether domestic abusers are allowed to own guns

[NewYorkExpress]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-second-amendment-gun-ban-domestic-violence-restraining-orders/

The Supreme Court said Friday it will consider whether a 30-year-old federal law that prohibits people under domestic violence restraining orders from possessing guns violates the Second Amendment, taking up a case that will test the high court's new standard for determining whether firearm restrictions pass constitutional muster.

The case was brought by a Texas man who was indicted by a federal grand jury for violating the 1994 law that prohibits gun ownership by a person subject to a domestic violence restraining order. The man, Zackey Rahimi, was under a restraining order granted to his former girlfriend in February 2020 when he threatened another woman with a gun and was involved in a series of five shootings in December 2020 and January 2021.

When police searched his home after identifying Rahimi as a suspect in the shootings, they found a .45-caliber pistol, a .308-caliber rifle, pistol and rifle magazines and ammunition.

Rahimi attempted to dismiss the indictment against him, arguing it violated the Second Amendment. A federal district court denied his motion, noting that a federal appeals court upheld the constitutionality of the firearms law in 2020.

This one seems likely to be a 6-3 party line decision. I think the big question here is which member of the conservative wing of the court gets the majority opinion.

[Ferguson97]

The man, Zackey Rahimi, was under a restraining order granted to his former girlfriend in February 2020 when he threatened another woman with a gun and was involved in a series of five shootings in December 2020 and January 2021.

How can any sane person say that this man should have a gun?

[Donerail]

The Court is going to reverse the 5th Circuit here.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The Court is going to reverse the 5th Circuit here.

Yep, this seems like something that wouldn't get anyone besides Thomas, Alito and Gorsuch on board. Maybe not even Alito if he prioritizes his "tough on crime" side like he did in Gundy.

[Vosem]

The Court is going to reverse the 5th Circuit here.

Dunno; this was 3-0 at the Fifth Circuit. Ho is perhaps further to the right than most of the conservatives on the Court, but Wilson and Jones are both pretty "normal" conservatives.

Reading the circuit court's opinion, it seems like the circuit court sees this almost as a separation of powers question; their ruling says that under the Second Amendment the legislature has no right to create a law which restricts firearm ownership among those subject to a restraining order in a civil case, but they're careful to note that the legislature may still restrict firearm ownership in "surety" cases, as when someone has been charged by a prosecutor (part of the executive branch) in a criminal trial, or is subject to a particular order from a judge (part of the judicial branch) in a criminal trial. I can easily see something like this getting past the Court 6-3; it would demand only a fairly slight adjustment to existing practice.

(At the same time, Roberts and Kavanaugh both at least try to be pretty careful with public opinion, giant conservative goals like Dobbs notwithstanding. And this really isn't a giant conservative goal; I could see some sort of lame opinion which takes the circuit court's discussion of surety laws, on pages 22-24, and reaches the opposite conclusion, saying that the restriction in question is similar enough to historical surety laws to be "deeply rooted".)

[brucejoel99]

The Court is going to reverse the 5th Circuit here.

Dunno; [snip].

Tbf, granting cert to an extremely unsympathetic plaintiff has historically been a Roberts Court tell of an impending shootdown.

[Blue3]

I could honestly see the Supreme Court ruling against gun control here. They seem to be embracing quite a fundamentalist take on this issue.

[Vosem]

The Court is going to reverse the 5th Circuit here.

Dunno; [snip].

Tbf, granting cert to an extremely unsympathetic plaintiff has historically been a Roberts Court tell of an impending shootdown.

Yeah, true. Lopez and Morrison loom large in my mind, as those (especially the latter) had very unsympathetic plaintiffs, but those were Rehnquist Court cases.

[politicallefty]

Dunno; this was 3-0 at the Fifth Circuit. Ho is perhaps further to the right than most of the conservatives on the Court, but Wilson and Jones are both pretty "normal" conservatives.

Edith Jones is a normal conservative?! She has to be one of the most conservative judges on the federal bench. Cory Wilson isn't much better. From a right-wing perspective, the only judge this panel was missing was Andrew Oldham.

Interestingly, I think the 5th Circuit had the highest reversal rate this term. As conservative as SCOTUS is, the 5th Circuit is chock full of movement conservatives that conflate legal opinions with personal and/or political grievances. They make Thomas and Alito look like Roberts or even Kennedy.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

The Court is going to reverse the 5th Circuit here.

Dunno; [snip].

Tbf, granting cert to an extremely unsympathetic plaintiff has historically been a Roberts Court tell of an impending shootdown.

Yeah, true. Lopez and Morrison loom large in my mind, as those (especially the latter) had very unsympathetic plaintiffs, but those were Rehnquist Court cases.

Why do you think Morrison was unsympathetic? The accuser changed her story, he was one of two accused and the other had an alibi, and a grand jury didn't find enough evidence to indict.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Dunno; this was 3-0 at the Fifth Circuit. Ho is perhaps further to the right than most of the conservatives on the Court, but Wilson and Jones are both pretty "normal" conservatives.

Edith Jones is a normal conservative?! She has to be one of the most conservative judges on the federal bench. Cory Wilson isn't much better. From a right-wing perspective, the only judge this panel was missing was Andrew Oldham.

Interestingly, I think the 5th Circuit had the highest reversal rate this term. As conservative as SCOTUS is, the 5th Circuit is chock full of movement conservatives that conflate legal opinions with personal and/or political grievances. They make Thomas and Alito look like Roberts or even Kennedy.

Yeah, the idea that either those two are anything other than fringe whacktivist hacks doesn’t really pass the laugh test.

[brucejoel99]

Oral args were yesterday, & Rahimi's public defender's performance was so bad that even Gorsuch thought by the end that a judge's protective order is sufficient due process, no matter the lack of a criminal conviction. Likely 7-2 with Thomalito dissenting, maybe even concurring in part on technical procedural Bruen args while still dissenting in part on due process.

[dead0man]

this is a lot like the No Fly List gun ban attempt a few years ago innit?  In that it was far too easy to be on the No Fly List for non-existent reasons and very hard to get yourself off of it and it's far too easy to have a restraining order filed for no good reason and nearly impossible to get it removed.

[Vosem]

Dunno; this was 3-0 at the Fifth Circuit. Ho is perhaps further to the right than most of the conservatives on the Court, but Wilson and Jones are both pretty "normal" conservatives.

Edith Jones is a normal conservative?! She has to be one of the most conservative judges on the federal bench. Cory Wilson isn't much better. From a right-wing perspective, the only judge this panel was missing was Andrew Oldham.

Interestingly, I think the 5th Circuit had the highest reversal rate this term. As conservative as SCOTUS is, the 5th Circuit is chock full of movement conservatives that conflate legal opinions with personal and/or political grievances. They make Thomas and Alito look like Roberts or even Kennedy.

Edith Jones was a very long-time SCOTUS finalist (like, for every seat between 1988 and 2006), and in general is not someone like Oldham who is thought of as an extremist. She is right-wing for sure, but an argument that Jones signs off on is one you can be pretty confident Roberts/Kavanaugh will take seriously even if they do not ultimately uphold it. Wilson admittedly is much less famous and I'm not confident about him, but he hasn't acquired a reputation as a bombthrower, whereas Ho likes to get his name out there and attack law schools (which in this space is a very controversial thing to do).

Dunno; this was 3-0 at the Fifth Circuit. Ho is perhaps further to the right than most of the conservatives on the Court, but Wilson and Jones are both pretty "normal" conservatives.

Edith Jones is a normal conservative?! She has to be one of the most conservative judges on the federal bench. Cory Wilson isn't much better. From a right-wing perspective, the only judge this panel was missing was Andrew Oldham.

Interestingly, I think the 5th Circuit had the highest reversal rate this term. As conservative as SCOTUS is, the 5th Circuit is chock full of movement conservatives that conflate legal opinions with personal and/or political grievances. They make Thomas and Alito look like Roberts or even Kennedy.

Yeah, the idea that either those two are anything other than fringe whacktivist hacks doesn’t really pass the laugh test.

I think by the normal standard of how close the median Supreme Court member is to your opinions (...and therefore how likely they are to be put into practice), probably most Democratic-appointed circuit court judges are 'fringe whacktivist hacks' if Edith Jones is. Jones is one of the most broadly-respected conservative judges on a lower court than SCOTUS.

The Court is going to reverse the 5th Circuit here.

Dunno; [snip].

Tbf, granting cert to an extremely unsympathetic plaintiff has historically been a Roberts Court tell of an impending shootdown.

Yeah, true. Lopez and Morrison loom large in my mind, as those (especially the latter) had very unsympathetic plaintiffs, but those were Rehnquist Court cases.

Why do you think Morrison was unsympathetic? The accuser changed her story, he was one of two accused and the other had an alibi, and a grand jury didn't find enough evidence to indict.

Just that he was credibly accused of rape. The Roberts Court has been incredibly leery about bringing down controversial decisions in cases where people are accused of crimes (in particular, Alito really doesn't like this, and he's far enough right that if he breaks he usually takes the more-moderate judges with him), so in fact ruling in favor of Rahimi here would be kind of unusual.

Anyway, I have not heard the oral arguments but everything I've read agrees with brucejoel99 that Rahimi's case went so disastrously badly that he's basically certain to lose now. Barrett apparently questioned Prelogar about a different case which will go before the Supreme Court next term, Garland v. Range, which is also about applying the Bruen precedent -- but has a much more sympathetic plaintiff (instead of a domestic abuser like Rahimi, Range is an individual accused of making false statements to obtain food stamps; otherwise the fact pattern is similar with a judge issuing an order to disarm the plaintiff). Presumably these will be 'companion cases', where Rahimi loses but Range wins.

(Like, my understanding is that the best case scenario for Rahimi is the Court voting to vacate and remand in light of a pro-gun decision in Range.)

[brucejoel99]

Anyway, I have not heard the oral arguments but everything I've read agrees with brucejoel99 that Rahimi's case went so disastrously badly that he's basically certain to lose now. Barrett apparently questioned Prelogar about a different case which will go before the Supreme Court next term, Garland v. Range, which is also about applying the Bruen precedent -- but has a much more sympathetic plaintiff (instead of a domestic abuser like Rahimi, Range is an individual accused of making false statements to obtain food stamps; otherwise the fact pattern is similar with a judge issuing an order to disarm the plaintiff). Presumably these will be 'companion cases', where Rahimi loses but Range wins.

(Like, my understanding is that the best case scenario for Rahimi is the Court voting to vacate and remand in light of a pro-gun decision in Range.)

I don't think they'll have to hear Range (yet) with a broad Rahimi opinion echoing ACB's Kanter dissent that THT confirms restricting sufficiently adjudicated violent offenders, with Range then GVR'd in light of Rahimi.

EDIT: oh wait, it's the government appealing the overturning of a nonviolent restriction in Range, so they could presumably just decide to grant post-Rahimi & issue a quick per curiam affirming the 3rd Circuit's holding as binding nationwide precedent, if they don't wanna bother with the full merits process in light of Rahimi.

[Ferguson97]

If you thought that Dobbs hurt Republican's numbers with women, just wait and see what happens if SCOTUS allows domestic abusers to own guns...

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

If you thought that Dobbs hurt Republican's numbers with women, just wait and see what happens if SCOTUS allows domestic abusers to own guns...

They’re not going to.

[freepcrusher]

Edith Jones was a very long-time SCOTUS finalist (like, for every seat between 1988 and 2006), and in general is not someone like Oldham who is thought of as an extremist. She is right-wing for sure, but an argument that Jones signs off on is one you can be pretty confident Roberts/Kavanaugh will take seriously even if they do not ultimately uphold it.

Jones has been an active judge for almost 40 years. Compare the number of clerks she's sent to the high court to someone like Sutton who has only been there half as long.

[David Hume]

The Court is going to reverse the 5th Circuit here.

Yep, this seems like something that wouldn't get anyone besides Thomas, Alito and Gorsuch on board. Maybe not even Alito if he prioritizes his "tough on crime" side like he did in Gundy.

I be Alito and Roberts will vote to upheld the law.

[Donerail]

The Court is going to reverse the 5th Circuit here.

Yep, this seems like something that wouldn't get anyone besides Thomas, Alito and Gorsuch on board. Maybe not even Alito if he prioritizes his "tough on crime" side like he did in Gundy.

I be Alito and Roberts will vote to upheld the law.

See, that's why I like this forum. Lots of posters have a good sense of humor and make posts that make me laugh.

[Electric Circus]

The man, Zackey Rahimi, was under a restraining order granted to his former girlfriend in February 2020 when he threatened another woman with a gun and was involved in a series of five shootings in December 2020 and January 2021.

How can any sane person say that this man should have a gun?

How can any sane person say that this man should be walking the streets?