Jamaica and CARICOM might invade Haiti

[PSOL]

https://www.blackagendareport.com/jamaica-rendezvous-shame

Since the summer 2021, after the assassination of Haiti’s de facto president, Jovenel Moïse, the U.S. and its western imperial partners have been trying to send armed foreign military to forcefully occupy the country. They first tried, unsuccessfully, to get the UN Security Council to approve a non-UN-led military force to Haiti. Then, the US tried to convince Canada to go it alone and lead a foreign armed mission to Haiti. Canada, in turn, tried to convince members of the Community of Latin American and States (CELAC) to intervene in Haiti - to no avail. The US also sent its ambassador to the UN, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, to Brazil to convince the government of Lula da Silva to take the lead, once again, in occupying Haiti. Finally, they turned to the intergovernmental organization, the Caribbean Community (CARICOM) to lead the effort in sending a military force to Haiti. Some members of CARICOM, especially the neocolonial stooge, Prime Minister of Jamaica, Andrew Holness, readily took up imperialism’s call to stifle Haitian sovereignty. A high delegation of CARICOM members went to Haiti back in March to “meet with politicians and other officials there to discuss security issues facing the country.” A follow up meeting is scheduled for next week, June 11-13, when an “Eminent Persons Group” (EPG) appointed by CARICOM Heads of Government, will meet in Jamaica to purportedly find a solution for Haiti’s problems - in terms of western-identified questions of “security, governance, the electoral process,” etc.

There’s already a popular uprising against the gangs by the Bwa Kale movement. Haiti doesn’t need outside help.

[Silent Hunter]

Bwa Kale look like vigilantes to me, which isn't really a solution.

[NYDem]

Haiti desperately requesting outside help and potentially receiving it is neither "imperialism" nor "neocolonialism", particularly when such intervention comes from their Caribbean neighbors rather than distant foreign powers.

Addressing the comment about "stifling Haitian sovereignty": Haitian sovereignty has already effectively ceased to exist. Haiti is a failed state with a government consisting entirely of empty chairs and interim officeholders. It is completely unable to control either the gangs or mobs. The best they can manage is for police to control less than one fifth of the neighborhoods in Port-Au-Prince, and nothing anywhere else. The Haitian government only exists as a legal fiction at present, and does not exercise sovereignty over anything.

[TheReckoning]

Haiti desperately requesting outside help and potentially receiving it is neither "imperialism" or "neocolonialism", particularly when such intervention comes from their Caribbean neighbors rather than distant foreign powers.

Addressing the comment about "stifling Haitian sovereignty": Haitian sovereignty has already effectively ceased to exist. Haiti is a failed state with a government consisting entirely of empty seats and interim officeholders. It is completely unable to control either the gangs or mobs. The best they can manage is for police to control less than one fifth of the neighborhoods in Port-Au-Prince, and nothing anywhere else. The Haitian government only exists as a legal fiction at present, and does not exercise sovereignty over anything.

Haiti would probably be better off today if the French just took a “no mercy” approach to Haitian Revolution, as much as I hate to say it. But I don’t know if it would be worth it for the destruction said approach would’ve caused.

[YPestis25]

Haiti desperately requesting outside help and potentially receiving it is neither "imperialism" or "neocolonialism", particularly when such intervention comes from their Caribbean neighbors rather than distant foreign powers.

Addressing the comment about "stifling Haitian sovereignty": Haitian sovereignty has already effectively ceased to exist. Haiti is a failed state with a government consisting entirely of empty seats and interim officeholders. It is completely unable to control either the gangs or mobs. The best they can manage is for police to control less than one fifth of the neighborhoods in Port-Au-Prince, and nothing anywhere else. The Haitian government only exists as a legal fiction at present, and does not exercise sovereignty over anything.

Haiti would probably be better off today if the French just took a “no mercy” approach to Haitian Revolution, as much as I hate to say it. But I don’t know if it would be worth it for the destruction said approach would’ve caused.

Horrifically repugnant post that I'm not sure how to even begin responding to. Hundreds of thousands of Haitians died, would you have had the French depopulate the whole island?

[YPestis25]

Haiti desperately requesting outside help and potentially receiving it is neither "imperialism" or "neocolonialism", particularly when such intervention comes from their Caribbean neighbors rather than distant foreign powers.

Addressing the comment about "stifling Haitian sovereignty": Haitian sovereignty has already effectively ceased to exist. Haiti is a failed state with a government consisting entirely of empty seats and interim officeholders. It is completely unable to control either the gangs or mobs. The best they can manage is for police to control less than one fifth of the neighborhoods in Port-Au-Prince, and nothing anywhere else. The Haitian government only exists as a legal fiction at present, and does not exercise sovereignty over anything.

Haiti would probably be better off today if the French just took a “no mercy” approach to Haitian Revolution, as much as I hate to say it. But I don’t know if it would be worth it for the destruction said approach would’ve caused.

Horrifically repugnant post that has earned you the honor of being the first admission to my ignore list.

It’s terrible, but it’s true. I mean, what happened to the Indigenous people of North America was absolutely horrific. But now, the USA and Canada are some of the most prosperous countries on the planet. It’s just how it sometimes goes.

What would make you think that the French wreaking even more havoc and destruction on the island would make it a better place? I'd really prefer you to spell out what that means. Perhaps the only thing that would have spared Haiti its current predicament is if the foreign powers, namely the French and the US, had left well enough alone.

[NYDem]

Haiti desperately requesting outside help and potentially receiving it is neither "imperialism" or "neocolonialism", particularly when such intervention comes from their Caribbean neighbors rather than distant foreign powers.

Addressing the comment about "stifling Haitian sovereignty": Haitian sovereignty has already effectively ceased to exist. Haiti is a failed state with a government consisting entirely of empty seats and interim officeholders. It is completely unable to control either the gangs or mobs. The best they can manage is for police to control less than one fifth of the neighborhoods in Port-Au-Prince, and nothing anywhere else. The Haitian government only exists as a legal fiction at present, and does not exercise sovereignty over anything.

Haiti would probably be better off today if the French just took a “no mercy” approach to Haitian Revolution, as much as I hate to say it. But I don’t know if it would be worth it for the destruction said approach would’ve caused.

Horrifically repugnant post that has earned you the honor of being the first admission to my ignore list.

It’s terrible, but it’s true. I mean, what happened to the Indigenous people of North America was absolutely horrific. But now, the USA and Canada are some of the most prosperous countries on the planet. It’s just how it sometimes goes.

This is genuine: What the f**k is wrong with you?

[TheReckoning]

Haiti desperately requesting outside help and potentially receiving it is neither "imperialism" or "neocolonialism", particularly when such intervention comes from their Caribbean neighbors rather than distant foreign powers.

Addressing the comment about "stifling Haitian sovereignty": Haitian sovereignty has already effectively ceased to exist. Haiti is a failed state with a government consisting entirely of empty seats and interim officeholders. It is completely unable to control either the gangs or mobs. The best they can manage is for police to control less than one fifth of the neighborhoods in Port-Au-Prince, and nothing anywhere else. The Haitian government only exists as a legal fiction at present, and does not exercise sovereignty over anything.

Haiti would probably be better off today if the French just took a “no mercy” approach to Haitian Revolution, as much as I hate to say it. But I don’t know if it would be worth it for the destruction said approach would’ve caused.

Horrifically repugnant post that has earned you the honor of being the first admission to my ignore list.

It’s terrible, but it’s true. I mean, what happened to the Indigenous people of North America was absolutely horrific. But now, the USA and Canada are some of the most prosperous countries on the planet. It’s just how it sometimes goes.

What would make you think that the French wreaking even more havoc and destruction on the island would make it a better place?

In the short term, it would’ve been terrible. But if France really suppressed the rebellion, then Haiti may be more like Jamaica or the Bahamas today.

[MaxQue]

Haiti desperately requesting outside help and potentially receiving it is neither "imperialism" or "neocolonialism", particularly when such intervention comes from their Caribbean neighbors rather than distant foreign powers.

Addressing the comment about "stifling Haitian sovereignty": Haitian sovereignty has already effectively ceased to exist. Haiti is a failed state with a government consisting entirely of empty seats and interim officeholders. It is completely unable to control either the gangs or mobs. The best they can manage is for police to control less than one fifth of the neighborhoods in Port-Au-Prince, and nothing anywhere else. The Haitian government only exists as a legal fiction at present, and does not exercise sovereignty over anything.

Haiti would probably be better off today if the French just took a “no mercy” approach to Haitian Revolution, as much as I hate to say it. But I don’t know if it would be worth it for the destruction said approach would’ve caused.

Horrifically repugnant post that has earned you the honor of being the first admission to my ignore list.

It’s terrible, but it’s true. I mean, what happened to the Indigenous people of North America was absolutely horrific. But now, the USA and Canada are some of the most prosperous countries on the planet. It’s just how it sometimes goes.

What would make you think that the French wreaking even more havoc and destruction on the island would make it a better place?

In the short term, it would’ve been terrible. But if France really suppressed the rebellion, then Haiti may be more like Jamaica or the Bahamas today.

It would not. There is reasons why pretty much every former French colony is struggling.

[Lumine]

"Actually genocide creates a better nation..." is... quite a take.

[CumbrianLefty]

Mate......stick to pedantry about the supposedly correct use of the word "conservative".

[Cashew]

Haiti desperately requesting outside help and potentially receiving it is neither "imperialism" nor "neocolonialism", particularly when such intervention comes from their Caribbean neighbors rather than distant foreign powers.

Addressing the comment about "stifling Haitian sovereignty": Haitian sovereignty has already effectively ceased to exist. Haiti is a failed state with a government consisting entirely of empty chairs and interim officeholders. It is completely unable to control either the gangs or mobs. The best they can manage is for police to control less than one fifth of the neighborhoods in Port-Au-Prince, and nothing anywhere else. The Haitian government only exists as a legal fiction at present, and does not exercise sovereignty over anything.

The Haitian ruling class is responsible for the gang problem in the first place, any outside intervention that involves restoring their rule rather than excluding them from power and rebuilding the country from the ground up is doomed to fail. Seeing as though there is little appetite for a long term presence the best option would be to encourage the formation of revolutionary organizations against the corrupt government instead.

[PSOL]

I suppose a “popular uprising” is only on the tables when the United States supports it? Hopefully Haitians drive out the gangs and the foreign invaders who have drove the island to poverty since its inception. In all that time their spirits have not been broken.

[NYDem]

I suppose a “popular uprising” is only on the tables when the United States supports it? Hopefully Haitians drive out the gangs and the foreign invaders who have drove the island to poverty since its inception. In all that time their spirits have not been broken.

Requesting and receiving foreign aid to stabilize Haiti is obviously better than having an island-wide turf war between the cutthroat gangs and the Bwa Kale vigilante squads who stomp people to death. There is little reason to believe that unorganized vigilante groups will be able to defeat the gangs nationwide if left to their own devices, occasional local successes aside. There also isn't any reason to believe that the rule of unorganized vigilante mobs would be good in the first place, even if it were a marginal improvement over current gangs. I know that a "people's revolution" of some form is an important part of your bizarre socialist eschatology, regardless of whether it takes the form of a descent into anarchy led by vigilante death squads. However, a vast majority of normal people think that would be a bad outcome. The best thing that could happen for Haiti is an intervention by it's neighbors to restore order, followed by a return to elected democratic government.

[PSOL]

I suppose a “popular uprising” is only on the tables when the United States supports it? Hopefully Haitians drive out the gangs and the foreign invaders who have drove the island to poverty since its inception. In all that time their spirits have not been broken.

Requesting and receiving foreign aid to stabilize Haiti is obviously better than having an island-wide turf war between the cutthroat gangs and the Bwa Kale vigilante squads who stomp people to death. There is little reason to believe that unorganized vigilante groups will be able to defeat the gangs nationwide if left to their own devices, occasional local successes aside. There also isn't any reason to believe that the rule of unorganized vigilante mobs would be good in the first place, even if it were a marginal improvement over current gangs. I know that a "people's revolution" of some form is an important part of your bizarre socialist eschatology, regardless of whether it takes the form of a descent into anarchy led by vigilante death squads. However, a vast majority of normal people think that would be a bad outcome. The best thing that could happen for Haiti is an intervention by it's neighbors to restore order, followed by a return to elected democratic government.

Oh yeah, because the last time there was an invasion of Haiti democracy was “restored” and brought about this current regime which shoots at protestors and financed these gangs in the first place. The US and its lackeys are not interested in what is best for the Haitian people.

Your worship of the liberal, US-aligned government as the natural and best state of affairs for the world has never been wrong. History doesn’t end here.

[Cashew]

I suppose a “popular uprising” is only on the tables when the United States supports it? Hopefully Haitians drive out the gangs and the foreign invaders who have drove the island to poverty since its inception. In all that time their spirits have not been broken.

Requesting and receiving foreign aid to stabilize Haiti is obviously better than having an island-wide turf war between the cutthroat gangs and the Bwa Kale vigilante squads who stomp people to death. There is little reason to believe that unorganized vigilante groups will be able to defeat the gangs nationwide if left to their own devices, occasional local successes aside. There also isn't any reason to believe that the rule of unorganized vigilante mobs would be good in the first place, even if it were a marginal improvement over current gangs. I know that a "people's revolution" of some form is an important part of your bizarre socialist eschatology, regardless of whether it takes the form of a descent into anarchy led by vigilante death squads. However, a vast majority of normal people think that would be a bad outcome. The best thing that could happen for Haiti is an intervention by it's neighbors to restore order, followed by a return to elected democratic government.

The U.S. spent 20 years maintaining order in Afghansitan and look how that worked out. Any intervention into Haiti would end with the corrupt puppet government embezzling aid and crumbling the minute foreign troops leave. As for democracy, that would be an absolute disaster. Most of the people with the money and connection to be in politics are the ones supporting the gangs, and yes they would be shameless enough to beg peacekeepers to stay and keep a leash on the gangs while arming the gangs to shoot at their political opponents and peacekeepers. Only by first purging the elite of Haitian society, especially including it's "government" would democracy stand any chance of functioning.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I say this as somebody who is broadly sympathetic to the UN and peacekeeping, but the last time the UN was in Haiti they had two main legacies: a) bringing in a cholera epidemic and b) creating a large prostitution racket.

As far the vigilantism it is regrettable but totally understandable given the abdication of the state. If I knew a bunch of violent tyrants were killing kids in my neighborhood while the police and pols sat on their hands, I would probably support them too. This is what you get when there is no legitimate source of power.

[TheReckoning]

"Actually genocide creates a better nation..." is... quite a take.

When did I say Haitians should’ve been genocided? A “no mercy” approach just means that the French don’t surrender.

[Silent Hunter]

Most of the people with the money and connection to be in politics are the ones supporting the gangs, and yes they would be shameless enough to beg peacekeepers to stay and keep a leash on the gangs while arming the gangs to shoot at their political opponents and peacekeepers. Only by first purging the elite of Haitian society, especially including it's "government" would democracy stand any chance of functioning.

Those are often the people who know how to run the country i.e. how the electricity system works. Revolutionaries do not always make good actual leaders.

[Cashew]

Most of the people with the money and connection to be in politics are the ones supporting the gangs, and yes they would be shameless enough to beg peacekeepers to stay and keep a leash on the gangs while arming the gangs to shoot at their political opponents and peacekeepers. Only by first purging the elite of Haitian society, especially including it's "government" would democracy stand any chance of functioning.

Those are often the people who know how to run the country i.e. how the electricity system works. Revolutionaries do not always make good actual leaders.

Haiti is already at rock bottom and they seen very eager to ensure it remains that way, revolutionaries or long term direct rule by a foreign power for all their problems are still more likely to work than trying to resuscitate the corpse of Haitian civil society while leaving the poison intact.

[PSOL]

Most of the people with the money and connection to be in politics are the ones supporting the gangs, and yes they would be shameless enough to beg peacekeepers to stay and keep a leash on the gangs while arming the gangs to shoot at their political opponents and peacekeepers. Only by first purging the elite of Haitian society, especially including it's "government" would democracy stand any chance of functioning.

Those are often the people who know how to run the country i.e. how the electricity system works. Revolutionaries do not always make good actual leaders.

The current crisis was started when Haiti fell into massive power outages over the current government’s corrupt dealings with Venezuela fell over. Haiti has been in serious crisis ever since Aristide was replaced by these losers.

And to be honest the only solution to any of these moments of peril has been to get mercenaries to shoot at protesters. First they contracted the gangs, and when they revolted, the bigwigs were going to hire the Wagner Group.

[FT-02 Senator A.F.E. 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

"Actually genocide creates a better nation..." is... quite a take.

When did I say Haitians should’ve been genocided? A “no mercy” approach just means that the French don’t surrender.

And just what do YOU think a French "no-mercy approach" would mean for for the Hatian people then?

[TheReckoning]

"Actually genocide creates a better nation..." is... quite a take.

When did I say Haitians should’ve been genocided? A “no mercy” approach just means that the French don’t surrender.

And just what do YOU think a French "no-mercy approach" would mean for for the Hatian people then?

The slave rebellion is crushed. Slavery is banned a few decades later in 1848. Haiti becomes independent sometime in the 50s/60s, and looks something like the Bahamas today.

[Helsinkian]

readily took up imperialism’s call to stifle Haitian sovereignty.

'Sovereignty' is traditionally defined as holding a monopoly on violence in a given territory. By that definition, there is no sovereignty in a lawless country that is run by gangs and is unable to run its state institutions, like the parliament, which currently has zero legislators.

[ingemann]

"Actually genocide creates a better nation..." is... quite a take.

When did I say Haitians should’ve been genocided? A “no mercy” approach just means that the French don’t surrender.

And just what do YOU think a French "no-mercy approach" would mean for for the Hatian people then?

The slave rebellion is crushed. Slavery is banned a few decades later in 1848. Haiti becomes independent sometime in the 50s/60s, and looks something like the Bahamas today.

The French no-mercy plan was to kill every Haitian above age eleven and import new slaves to replace the dead ones.