Opinion of Arab Spring?

[OSR stands with Israel]

No this is wrong . Democracy can only work in a culture that values individual rights , otherwise democracy simply cannot work .

So would you agree with the idea that America was not a democracy until the 1960s?

Yes The South wasn’t really a democracy till the 1960s and I have said before I think reconstruction was ended too early .

Though I would like to point out that Jim Crow was implemented through a democracy which is exactly why democracy cannot be placed over individual rights when those two conflict

[All Along The Watchtower]

No this is wrong . Democracy can only work in a culture that values individual rights , otherwise democracy simply cannot work .

So would you agree with the idea that America was not a democracy until the 1960s?

Yes The South wasn’t really a democracy till the 1960s and I have said before I think reconstruction was ended too early .

Though I would like to point out that Jim Crow was implemented through a democracy which is exactly why democracy cannot be placed over individual rights when those two conflict

Violence, intimidation, and other forms of voter suppression + Supreme Court rulings =/ democracy.

[OSR stands with Israel]

No this is wrong . Democracy can only work in a culture that values individual rights , otherwise democracy simply cannot work .

So would you agree with the idea that America was not a democracy until the 1960s?

Yes The South wasn’t really a democracy till the 1960s and I have said before I think reconstruction was ended too early .

Though I would like to point out that Jim Crow was implemented through a democracy which is exactly why democracy cannot be placed over individual rights when those two conflict

Violence, intimidation, and other forms of voter suppression + Supreme Court rulings =/ democracy.

I said that was implemented through democracy which can happen. Anti Democratic Measures can easily be implemented through democracies and have time and time again

[Green Line]

Absolutely horrible movement aided and abetted by Obama (and created ISIS).

[Samof94]

The idea that democracy is a great idea for some countries or cultures but not for others is fundamentally incoherent and abhorrent, and can only come from a place of elitism and racism.

That's exactly how China justifies its rule. It tries to sell the idea that certain cultures aren't suitable for democracy and that strongman rule is inherently natural(and said strongman can choose their system of government).

Countries without a history of liberal democracy will never succeed unless the movement for democracy is both organic and comes from a place of national unity. China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia, to name a few examples, are not countries that have much if any experience with liberal democracy. And the more Westerners promote democracy in foreign policy, the more anti-Western resentment will be incurred. Pointing out that fact is neither elitist nor racist, but supporting a one-size-fits-all model for world governments is both naive and dismissive of how cultures actually work.

Russia seems a bit different than China or Saudi Arabia as it could maybe take a few steps in that direction in the future as it has made halfhearted attempts before.  Also, India is not a western country, but clearly a democracy(partially due to the legacy British rule). My point was more how Chinese propaganda works(Taiwan exists of course) towards non Western countries.

[All Along The Watchtower]

A major problem for post-Soviet Russia, besides the trauma of the collapse itself, was the introduction of turbo-capitalism without the rule of law. The rise of oligarchs and organized crime networks in that context—at the expense of the vast majority of Russians—isn’t surprising, nor is Russia’s turn to a veteran of the Soviet security state as authoritarian leader by the new century.

[Samof94]

A major problem for post-Soviet Russia, besides the trauma of the collapse itself, was the introduction of turbo-capitalism without the rule of law. The rise of oligarchs and organized crime networks in that context—at the expense of the vast majority of Russians—isn’t surprising, nor is Russia’s turn to a veteran of the Soviet security state as authoritarian leader by the new century.

It did not help Jihadi attacks were occurring from the Chechen war as well.

[Sir Mohamed]

Soft FF. Had overall good intentions, but failed to deliver actual change for numerous reasons.

[SInNYC]

"Democracy" is almost always bad. Liberal democracy (those restrictions on democracy that ensure essential rules for democracy to survive) is good. The Arab spring was more about democracy than liberal democracy (and I said it then too, so this is not hindsight).

Unfortunately, liberal democracy often needs visionary leaders to start things off - Jefferson/Washington, Gandhi/Nehru, Mandela were lions, but there are numerous other less prominent leaders too. In poorer countries, it also needs to avoid being the focus of attention of external agents and colonialists out to make it friendly to them.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Saying that you have to have to support the Arab Spring because it’s “ideals” were good is like saying that you have to support China’s Great Leap Forward because it had good “ideals.”

No, as China's great leap forward had stupid ideals

Economic development by industrialization is a stupid ideal?

I don't think that was the primary ideals of the great leap forward?

[All Along The Watchtower]

Absolutely horrible movement aided and abetted by Obama (and created ISIS).

Huh?

[Upper Canada Tory]

Absolutely horrible movement aided and abetted by Obama (and created ISIS).

Huh?

The claim that the Arab Spring was aided and abetted by Obama is mostly a Russian propaganda narrative. In fact, the first two leaders overthrown in the Arab Spring were US allies (Ben Ali and Mubarak) who Obama was careful to avoid criticizing/opposing. The anti-government militias in Syria were backed by Turkey & did not receive any support from the US until several years into the Syrian Civil War.

The Libyan protests were inspired by the Tunisian and Egyptian protests, but it is true that NATO intervening did not make things better.

ISIS existed long before the Arab Spring - just under a different name. It was mainly present in Iraq, which was not affected by the Arab Spring.

[TheReckoning]

Saying that you have to have to support the Arab Spring because it’s “ideals” were good is like saying that you have to support China’s Great Leap Forward because it had good “ideals.”

No, as China's great leap forward had stupid ideals

Economic development by industrialization is a stupid ideal?

I don't think that was the primary ideals of the great leap forward?

What were the goals of the GLF if not to industrialize China?

[Yelnoc]

Saying that you have to have to support the Arab Spring because it’s “ideals” were good is like saying that you have to support China’s Great Leap Forward because it had good “ideals.”

No, as China's great leap forward had stupid ideals

Economic development by industrialization is a stupid ideal?

I don't think that was the primary ideals of the great leap forward?

What were the goals of the GLF if not to industrialize China?

I think it is worth noting that Mao's aim with the Great Leap Forward was to take an alternate path to industrialization from the road marked out by the Marxist concept of "Primitive Accumulation." That is, the violent dispossession of the peasantry in order to seize the "seed capital," if you will, to jump start capital accumulation and industrialization. This arguably is how Western Europe sparked its capitalist revolution (with wealth stolen from the New World). And this, on a far shorter time scale, is what Stalin and the Bolsheviks did ("dekulakization" or violently dispossessing the small-holding farmers of Ukraine, the Volga, etc) in order to launch their rapid industrialization in the 1930s.

Mao did not want to do to the Chinese peasantry what Stalin did to the Russian peasantry. He came up with an alternate vision, call it a romantic one, where the city and the country, industry and agriculture, worker and peasant, would be joined together. Metal working and production would be brought to the villages, managed by the village collective, and thus there would be no need to dispossess (read: impoverish, murder) the peasant in order to smash China into an industrial society.

Of course, Mao's romantic vision was a complete f[inks]ing disaster. I don't have the exact figures at hand, but we all know what a tragedy it was, how many millions upon millions starved to death in those years.

I would say that actually strengthens your original point. The Arab Spring was also, in its inception, a romantic vision. It was a well-intentioned movement, a movement for democracy and freedom, the stuff modern western history and government and philosophy is grounded in. How could you not love it? But, I would argue, the parallels are quite incisive, so thank you for the analogy. Not one I would have thought of on my own.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Absolutely horrible movement aided and abetted by Obama (and created ISIS).

Huh?

The claim that the Arab Spring was aided and abetted by Obama is mostly a Russian propaganda narrative. In fact, the first two leaders overthrown in the Arab Spring were US allies (Ben Ali and Mubarak) who Obama was careful to avoid criticizing/opposing. The anti-government militias in Syria were backed by Turkey & did not receive any support from the US until several years into the Syrian Civil War.

The Libyan protests were inspired by the Tunisian and Egyptian protests, but it is true that NATO intervening did not make things better.

ISIS existed long before the Arab Spring - just under a different name. It was mainly present in Iraq, which was not affected by the Arab Spring.

All true, though I suspect that the hostility to the Arab Spring in the West has less to do with Russian propaganda and more to do with citizens of Arab countries who overthrew their dictators voting for the “wrong” people (so-called Islamists). Because if there’s one thing ISIS and Al-Qaeda are known for, it’s their support for democracy and elections.

And denying people political representation and basic rights by supporting repressive dictatorships is a great way to counter the appeal of terrorist organizations—definitely something that has never blown back on Western countries that support said dictatorships. 👍

[Upper Canada Tory]

Absolutely horrible movement aided and abetted by Obama (and created ISIS).

Huh?

The claim that the Arab Spring was aided and abetted by Obama is mostly a Russian propaganda narrative. In fact, the first two leaders overthrown in the Arab Spring were US allies (Ben Ali and Mubarak) who Obama was careful to avoid criticizing/opposing. The anti-government militias in Syria were backed by Turkey & did not receive any support from the US until several years into the Syrian Civil War.

The Libyan protests were inspired by the Tunisian and Egyptian protests, but it is true that NATO intervening did not make things better.

ISIS existed long before the Arab Spring - just under a different name. It was mainly present in Iraq, which was not affected by the Arab Spring.

All true, though I suspect that the hostility to the Arab Spring in the West has less to do with Russian propaganda and more to do with citizens of Arab countries who overthrew their dictators voting for the “wrong” people (so-called Islamists). Because if there’s one thing ISIS and Al-Qaeda are known for, it’s their support for democracy and elections.

And denying people political representation and basic rights by supporting repressive dictatorships is a great way to counter the appeal of terrorist organizations—definitely something that has never blown back on Western countries that support said dictatorships. 👍

I mean, other than in Tunisia, they either did elect Islamists or Islamist militias took over. Mohammed Morsi in Egypt wasn't a liberal democrat - he was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Islamists took over vast regions of Syria as well.

However, it's not the fault of Obama or the US that this happened.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I mean, other than in Tunisia, they either did elect Islamists or Islamist militias took over

What does the former have to do with the latter?

Mohammed Morsi in Egypt wasn't a liberal democrat - he was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

And?

Islamists took over vast regions of Syria as well.

Again, what does that have to do with democracy and elections?

[Upper Canada Tory]

Mohammed Morsi in Egypt wasn't a liberal democrat - he was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

And?

Hmm, ok. I certainly hope your reaction will be the same if Trump gets elected in November.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Mohammed Morsi in Egypt wasn't a liberal democrat - he was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

And?

Hmm, ok. I certainly hope your reaction will be the same if Trump gets elected in November.

Well if that happens I don’t think the solution would be a military coup and the installation of a far more brutal regime.

[DavidB.]

Evidently horrible and this was obvious from the get-go. This cost millions of lives. The West's cheerleading Islamists (under Obama, of course) because they would bring 'democracy' was naive at best and evil at worst - and it brought us ISIS.

[PSOL]

Generally a wasted opportunity

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Tunisia had been the one positive outcome, but they are becoming less free. Other than that, the outcomes were terrible.