Bigotry of low expectations: San Fransisco's decision to delay algebra to 9th grade backfires

[Benjamin Frank]

The fundamental problem is still the way math is taught and not the students.

[Benjamin Frank]

The fundamental problem is still the way math is taught and not the students.

I am a teacher so I have a lot of insight.

The problem is, modern education doesn't focus on basic math skills. Children are expected to master basic math skills at a young age and continue to move on to more advanced skills. But children who grew up in poverty are less likely to master basic math skills. Than they get to high school expected to do algebra and calculus, but can't do basic math.

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.

He doesn't go in the same direction as you in terms of the alternative, but I always cite Paul Lockhart's A Mathematician's Lament for how badly mathematics is taught.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mathematician%27s_Lament

I can see the need for some rote learning for basic math skills.

Memorizing formulas and plugging numbers in and figuring out how to manipulate the formula with little to no context provided has got to be the worst way to teach mathematics.

[Benjamin Frank]

Algebra I is literally the first math class for 9th graders here.

The fundamental problem is still the way math is taught and not the students.

I am a teacher so I have a lot of insight.

The problem is, modern education doesn't focus on basic math skills. Children are expected to master basic math skills at a young age and continue to move on to more advanced skills. But children who grew up in poverty are less likely to master basic math skills. Than they get to high school expected to do algebra and calculus, but can't do basic math.

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.

He doesn't go in the same direction as you in terms of the alternative, but I always cite Paul Lockhart's A Mathematician's Lament for how badly mathematics is taught.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mathematician%27s_Lament

I can see the need for some rote learning for basic math skills.

Memorizing formulas and plugging numbers in and figuring out how to manipulate the formula with little to no context provided has got to be the worst way to teach mathematics.

This is a problem in general in most subjects. Not just math.

The problem is, so many kids seem programmed to this kind of thinking themselves and close off to any kind of other way.

Could you expand on this?  I can see how science subjects are taught this way, but they require a lot of memorization and I don't know how else they could be taught.

For instance, I don't think there is any logical reason why the speed of light is what it is or why objects in a vacuum fall at 9.81/, students just have to learn the numbers (and if there is a logical reason the explanation I'm sure sure would hurt my brain anyway.)

[Benjamin Frank]

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.

I think basic algebra is fine and everyone should know the basics. Anything beyond that should be an optional path. I think most people would be far better off with a required statistics course in high school. I took algebra in middle school and I can't say that any of my higher math classes in high school have helped me in the real world. I didn't take a statistics class until college.

Algebra II is useless in real life unless you need them for college STEM courses. Even then, for calculus, all that Algebra II is really used for is to calculate the fundamential theorem of calculus.

[Benjamin Frank]

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.

I think basic algebra is fine and everyone should know the basics. Anything beyond that should be an optional path. I think most people would be far better off with a required statistics course in high school. I took algebra in middle school and I can't say that any of my higher math classes in high school have helped me in the real world. I didn't take a statistics class until college.

Algebra II is useless in real life unless you need them for college STEM courses. Even then, for calculus, all that Algebra II is really used for is to calculate the fundamential theorem of calculus.

what kind of galaxy take is this

I'm not sure which part you're referring to. I probably should have said that all Algebra II is needed for in first level calculus it to prove the fundamental theorem of calculus. After that, it's proven using calculus and then everything else in a basic first year differential and integral calculus calculus formulas and algebra I (integral calculus requires more than memorizing and manipulating formulas which is why it's  more difficult than differential calculus for most students.)

Have you ever used logs, exponents, polynomials, linear equations or matrices in real life?  I can't see how they would be used by anybody outside of a STEM field.  Algebra I is certainly needed for essentially applied science or engineering type things (though not often thought of as that way) like carpentry and cooking, but nothing in the, for non STEM people, completely pointless abstract algebra II.

Except for quadratic equations, I thought that was part of algebra I.

Factoring quadratic equations and graphing are fun anyway. Puzzles and drawing.

[Benjamin Frank]

Have you ever used logs, exponents, polynomials, linear equations or matrices in real life?  I can't see how they would be used by anybody outside of a STEM field.

Not going to comment on the rest of the post because it's been enough time since Algebra I/II for me to remember what is in what, but this one made me laugh. I use these things all the time, but then I spend ~50 hours/week working a STEM job.

But even taking your question at face value, I'd say that exponential growth/decay is a pretty important concept for a lay person to understand (hard to think of a better example of this than COVID). In general I think distinguishing between multiplicative and additive processes (for which understanding the relationship between log/exponential is fundamental) is a good thing to understand. Among the people I work with their intuition for logarithms is pretty disappointing.

Yes, you are correct on this. I should not have included exponents. However, I think I can still argue that exponents are poorly taught in Algebra II, and learning about exponents, as your example shows would still be necessary for biology (as well as the non STEM psychology) in college, if not biology in high school, which requires probability and statistics which requires knowing exponents. In addition to exponential growth (and decay) is carrying capacity, which is an important concept in real life as well.

Including exponents was a stupid error on my part, I hope that it doesn't take away from my overall point that Algebra II is badly and likely for many students harmfully taught as an abstraction without context that relies on memorizing formulas and plugging in numbers to manipulate the formulas and does not  explain the underlying concepts, including with logs. That might explain why intuition for logarithms (and exponents) is pretty disappointing.

[Benjamin Frank]

The fundamental problem is still the way math is taught and not the students.

It's the parents. Much of the issues regarding our youth can boil down to the type of person who is having children in this era.

If that were true, the students would be struggling in all subjects and not just math. They wouldn't necessarily be struggling in other subjects as badly as in math, of course.

[Benjamin Frank]

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.

I think basic algebra is fine and everyone should know the basics. Anything beyond that should be an optional path. I think most people would be far better off with a required statistics course in high school. I took algebra in middle school and I can't say that any of my higher math classes in high school have helped me in the real world. I didn't take a statistics class until college.

Agreed. Everybody uses algebra even if they don't think they do. I also think basic geometry should be taught, can leave out proofs and such.

I don't have a problem with the way math it taught up to and including grade seven, as I think some rote learning is necessary for the basics, though students learn best in different ways, and I don't have a problem with anything that it taught up to and including grade 10, which includes geometry exponents and trigonometry.

I especially have a problem with trigonometry being taught using calculators