Bigotry of low expectations: San Fransisco's decision to delay algebra to 9th grade backfires
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  Bigotry of low expectations: San Fransisco's decision to delay algebra to 9th grade backfires
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Author Topic: Bigotry of low expectations: San Fransisco's decision to delay algebra to 9th grade backfires  (Read 1893 times)
Ferguson97
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« on: April 17, 2023, 05:52:43 PM »

https://www.joannejacobs.com/post/algebra-for-none-fails-in-san-francisco
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Frustrated by high failure rates in eighth-grade algebra, San Francisco Unified decided in 2015 to delay algebra till ninth grade and place low, average and high achievers in the same classes. The goal was to improve achievement for black and Hispanic students, preparing more for advanced math.

That didn't happen, concludes a study by a team of Stanford professors. "Large ethnoracial gaps in advanced math course-taking did not change." Black students aren't more likely to enroll in AP math; Hispanic enrollment increased by 1 percentage point. Overall, there was no change in the number of students receiving credit for advanced math classes, or the number taking math in 12th grade.

Test data from 2015 to 2019 shows that racial "achievement gaps have widened," wrote Tom Loveless last year. The district "is headed in the wrong direction on equity." Black and Hispanic 11th-graders in San Francisco earned "appalling" scores on the state math test, "about the same as or lower than the typical fifth-grader" in the state. 

"Families with resources turn to fee-required online algebra 1 courses in eighth grade, outside the public school system, or enroll their kids in private schools," they write. Those who can't afford it must take a compression class that combines advanced algebra and pre-calculus or take a year of double math to get on track for AP Calculus.
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Benjamin Frank
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2023, 06:00:07 PM »

The fundamental problem is still the way math is taught and not the students.
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Computer89
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2023, 06:35:33 PM »

This is a complete disgrace and it’s a huge reason why California has dropped significantly in education rankings over the years .

We should “trust the experts” though
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Pres Mike
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2023, 08:42:46 PM »

AP classes are a scam. Duel enrollment and CLEP exams are the way to go.
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Pres Mike
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2023, 08:46:06 PM »

The fundamental problem is still the way math is taught and not the students.
I am a teacher so I have a lot of insight.

The problem is, modern education doesn't focus on basic math skills. Children are expected to master basic math skills at a young age and continue to move on to more advanced skills. But children who grew up in poverty are less likely to master basic math skills. Than they get to high school expected to do algebra and calculus, but can't do basic math.

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.
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jfern
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2023, 08:48:26 PM »

Absolute morons. They obviously hurt poor minorities more than they hurt rich whites.
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Benjamin Frank
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2023, 08:54:16 PM »

The fundamental problem is still the way math is taught and not the students.
I am a teacher so I have a lot of insight.

The problem is, modern education doesn't focus on basic math skills. Children are expected to master basic math skills at a young age and continue to move on to more advanced skills. But children who grew up in poverty are less likely to master basic math skills. Than they get to high school expected to do algebra and calculus, but can't do basic math.

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.

He doesn't go in the same direction as you in terms of the alternative, but I always cite Paul Lockhart's A Mathematician's Lament for how badly mathematics is taught.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mathematician%27s_Lament

I can see the need for some rote learning for basic math skills.

Memorizing formulas and plugging numbers in and figuring out how to manipulate the formula with little to no context provided has got to be the worst way to teach mathematics.
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Podgy the Bear
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2023, 09:37:30 PM »

AP classes are a scam. Duel enrollment and CLEP exams are the way to go.

AP classes have become a scam.  40 years ago when I was in high school, I took several AP classes and did well enough on the exams to get lots of college credit and graduate early.  They hardly do that anymore with AP exams now (the University of California system remains the exception)--perhaps some exemptions at best.

I agree with dual enrollment and CLEP exams--if it can get you out of core curriculum classes.  Then use the freed up time to take the classes you want and make the most out of your college career.
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jojoju1998
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2023, 10:07:02 PM »

I had horrible math teachers when I was in high school. Abusive ones too. And manipulate ones.
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2023, 10:21:32 PM »

Algebra I is literally the first math class for 9th graders here.

The fundamental problem is still the way math is taught and not the students.
I am a teacher so I have a lot of insight.

The problem is, modern education doesn't focus on basic math skills. Children are expected to master basic math skills at a young age and continue to move on to more advanced skills. But children who grew up in poverty are less likely to master basic math skills. Than they get to high school expected to do algebra and calculus, but can't do basic math.

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.

He doesn't go in the same direction as you in terms of the alternative, but I always cite Paul Lockhart's A Mathematician's Lament for how badly mathematics is taught.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mathematician%27s_Lament

I can see the need for some rote learning for basic math skills.

Memorizing formulas and plugging numbers in and figuring out how to manipulate the formula with little to no context provided has got to be the worst way to teach mathematics.

This is a problem in general in most subjects. Not just math.

The problem is, so many kids seem programmed to this kind of thinking themselves and close off to any kind of other way.

I had horrible math teachers when I was in high school. Abusive ones too. And manipulate ones.

I get that, I had one hold me back for no true reason.
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Blue3
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2023, 10:44:17 PM »

The fundamental problem is still the way math is taught and not the students.
I am a teacher so I have a lot of insight.

The problem is, modern education doesn't focus on basic math skills. Children are expected to master basic math skills at a young age and continue to move on to more advanced skills. But children who grew up in poverty are less likely to master basic math skills. Than they get to high school expected to do algebra and calculus, but can't do basic math.

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.

This ^ ^ ^ ^
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2023, 06:59:40 AM »

If I'm reading this right the clowns in the SF municipal government/school board saw that BIPOC students were underperforming White/Asian students so instead of looking at income disparities that caused that determined that the material or way that it was taught was racist?
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Person Man
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2023, 07:55:49 AM »

When are you going to see a Republican criticize the least accountable elites in their party?
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jojoju1998
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2023, 09:03:28 AM »

This is a complete disgrace and it’s a huge reason why California has dropped significantly in education rankings over the years .

We should “trust the experts” though


You should know that the US as a whole has always been mediocre when it comes to Mathematics Education. We rank behind freaking Mexico I believe.

Finland, Singapore, and well... every other developed country ( with experts ) have better math education than the US.
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2023, 09:32:39 AM »
« Edited: April 18, 2023, 09:37:36 AM by Own China by becoming China »

This is fundamentally bad policy that literally screws over lower income children anyways lol.

What we should have is a consolidated free national database of all major school courses for students that are asynchronous and online. These shouldn’t be a replacement for school, but a supplement for this kids who do want to learn. This should include all APs. If anything, we should be making it easier for the low income but curious seventh grader who can and wants to do algebra, not the other way around. That’s how you help reduce inequality. Make the supplementary stuff rich parents have access to accesible for all kids.

Alternatively, providing a government funded space (we could work with YouTube) for educational content creators to teach topics with fewer restrictions and incentives for teaching less covered subjects.
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Computer89
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2023, 12:02:20 PM »

If I'm reading this right the clowns in the SF municipal government/school board saw that BIPOC students were underperforming White/Asian students so instead of looking at income disparities that caused that determined that the material or way that it was taught was racist?

This is exactly why CRT should not be allowed to be used in education at all . By that I don’t only mean teach it but apply it in trainings or policy.

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Benjamin Frank
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2023, 12:45:06 PM »

Algebra I is literally the first math class for 9th graders here.

The fundamental problem is still the way math is taught and not the students.
I am a teacher so I have a lot of insight.

The problem is, modern education doesn't focus on basic math skills. Children are expected to master basic math skills at a young age and continue to move on to more advanced skills. But children who grew up in poverty are less likely to master basic math skills. Than they get to high school expected to do algebra and calculus, but can't do basic math.

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.

He doesn't go in the same direction as you in terms of the alternative, but I always cite Paul Lockhart's A Mathematician's Lament for how badly mathematics is taught.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mathematician%27s_Lament

I can see the need for some rote learning for basic math skills.

Memorizing formulas and plugging numbers in and figuring out how to manipulate the formula with little to no context provided has got to be the worst way to teach mathematics.

This is a problem in general in most subjects. Not just math.

The problem is, so many kids seem programmed to this kind of thinking themselves and close off to any kind of other way.


Could you expand on this?  I can see how science subjects are taught this way, but they require a lot of memorization and I don't know how else they could be taught.

For instance, I don't think there is any logical reason why the speed of light is what it is or why objects in a vacuum fall at 9.81/, students just have to learn the numbers (and if there is a logical reason the explanation I'm sure sure would hurt my brain anyway.)
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Sestak
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2023, 05:42:31 PM »

This is a commonly known fact that school districts choose to ignore again and again because it’s “too hard” to deal with. You need basic calculus in high school to be able to get a college degree in basically anything STEM-related without falling behind early and struggling (despite the political craze over replacing calculus with ‘data science’, any degree that lends itself to a job doing data analysis or the like will still be much easier with calculus in high school!). In turn, you cannot have Calculus in 12th grade from Algebra in 9th without an absolutely ridiculous breakneck pace of curriculum in high school.

Every time this has been studied, the same result has come. Even offering a delay of Algebra to 9th grade shuts out a large proportion of students from a very large and growing segment of decently good paying jobs by the end of middle school. Mandating it is actual madness. But districts think it’s too hard to get all their students prepared to learn algebra by 8th grade so they stick their heads in the sand.
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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2023, 02:19:19 AM »

AP classes are a scam. Duel enrollment and CLEP exams are the way to go.

AP classes have become a scam.  40 years ago when I was in high school, I took several AP classes and did well enough on the exams to get lots of college credit and graduate early.  They hardly do that anymore with AP exams now (the University of California system remains the exception)--perhaps some exemptions at best.

I am skeptical that colleges "hardly" accept AP exams for class credit nowadays. At my alma mater, the University of Maryland, I was able to use AP exams to amass three semesters' worth of credits. The chart posted by the University of Maryland for the 2021–22 school year shows that almost every AP exam was accepted for class credit. I would imagine that this is normal. What evidence do you have that it is not?
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« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2023, 02:46:42 AM »

AP classes are a scam. Duel enrollment and CLEP exams are the way to go.

AP classes have become a scam.  40 years ago when I was in high school, I took several AP classes and did well enough on the exams to get lots of college credit and graduate early.  They hardly do that anymore with AP exams now (the University of California system remains the exception)--perhaps some exemptions at best.

I am skeptical that colleges "hardly" accept AP exams for class credit nowadays. At my alma mater, the University of Maryland, I was able to use AP exams to amass three semesters' worth of credits. The chart posted by the University of Maryland for the 2021–22 school year shows that almost every AP exam was accepted for class credit. I would imagine that this is normal. What evidence do you have that it is not?

Must be a public flagship vs private elite/liberal arts school thing, or maybe a pre-health thing as well.
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SWE
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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2023, 05:37:34 AM »

It's extremely troubling when policy is written by overt racists like these people who are absolutely convinced they're actually fighting racism by being George Wallace
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Podgy the Bear
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2023, 06:08:50 AM »

AP classes are a scam. Duel enrollment and CLEP exams are the way to go.

AP classes have become a scam.  40 years ago when I was in high school, I took several AP classes and did well enough on the exams to get lots of college credit and graduate early.  They hardly do that anymore with AP exams now (the University of California system remains the exception)--perhaps some exemptions at best.

I am skeptical that colleges "hardly" accept AP exams for class credit nowadays. At my alma mater, the University of Maryland, I was able to use AP exams to amass three semesters' worth of credits. The chart posted by the University of Maryland for the 2021–22 school year shows that almost every AP exam was accepted for class credit. I would imagine that this is normal. What evidence do you have that it is not?

Must be a public flagship vs private elite/liberal arts school thing, or maybe a pre-health thing as well.


The above is probably correct.  I was premed at Vanderbilt in the 1980s, and college credit would be generally given for AP exam scores of 3, 4, and 5.    That allowed me (and others in my class) to graduate early with huge savings.   That option hardly exists at Vanderbilt and other private schools today. 

My daughter is now at a private university--took several AP classes in high school with scores of 3 and 4--no college credit whatsoever but rather the option to place into higher level classes in disciplines irrelevant to her major.  If she had gone to UGA or the UC schools where she had been accepted, it would be a different story. 
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2023, 08:57:43 AM »

If I'm reading this right the clowns in the SF municipal government/school board saw that BIPOC students were underperforming White/Asian students so instead of looking at income disparities that caused that determined that the material or way that it was taught was racist?

This is exactly why CRT should not be allowed to be used in education at all . By that I don’t only mean teach it but apply it in trainings or policy.

     Not sympathetic to CRT at all, but it seems that the issue is less that it was applied and more that it was applied in a brain-dead fashion that did nothing to help those that they are seeking to help and was uncritically carried forth because muh expertise and muh good intentions. There are ideas that could legitimately help close the achievement gap, but delaying mathematical education isn't one of them.
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politicallefty
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« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2023, 10:03:18 AM »

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.

I think basic algebra is fine and everyone should know the basics. Anything beyond that should be an optional path. I think most people would be far better off with a required statistics course in high school. I took algebra in middle school and I can't say that any of my higher math classes in high school have helped me in the real world. I didn't take a statistics class until college.
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Benjamin Frank
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« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2023, 11:55:09 AM »

I think we need to drastically reform education away from the classical renessiance type of education. Most people don't need algebra, but would benefit from mastering basic math skills. And learning more practical math concepts like taxes, economic data, data managment in the workplace, starting a business etc.

I think basic algebra is fine and everyone should know the basics. Anything beyond that should be an optional path. I think most people would be far better off with a required statistics course in high school. I took algebra in middle school and I can't say that any of my higher math classes in high school have helped me in the real world. I didn't take a statistics class until college.

Algebra II is useless in real life unless you need them for college STEM courses. Even then, for calculus, all that Algebra II is really used for is to calculate the fundamential theorem of calculus.
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