Income taxes

[MaC]

none of it and you guys who voted for an option other than one are either liars, deluded workers, or communists.  However if all taxes were voluntary, I'd only pay taxes for justice, defense-internal and external.

[Richard]

I'm rather curious to know your basis for that.  Just 100 years ago that was not true.  Why should I pay a tax to fund a war that has been over for decades?

It has always been true.  It is your duty to pay your taxes.

I need an argument.  "It has always been true" is not an argument.  It is not even a reason.  WHY is it my duty?

[Richard]

So then what is one's duties to one's country?  If I have multiple citizenships, would you say I have to pay my 40% tax in Canada and another 35% income tax in the USA since both tax on worldwide income?  It is one's duty to pay 75% income taxes by just breaking $120,000 in income a year?  Stupid.

Income taxes have nothing to do with one's "duty" to one's country.  I would have you show me an argument if you disagree.

I don't believe in multiple citizenship, so it's a moot point. And I agree that it is also stupid, if that's what your last remark is supposed to mean.

I don't think the question of one's duties to one's coountry is much to argue about. I belive they exist, you don't. I haven't seen much argument from your side either.

Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Many people have multiple citizenships.  For UK/France it is not a problem (for example), because they tax not on worldwide income.  Other countries do, and that is a problem.

So once again, would it be a person's duty to pay his 75% in income taxes?

I do believe in duty to one's country, just not income taxes.  At least, not in the United States and Canada.

[MaC]

I'm rather curious to know your basis for that.  Just 100 years ago that was not true.  Why should I pay a tax to fund a war that has been over for decades?

It has always been true.  It is your duty to pay your taxes.

I need an argument.  "It has always been true" is not an argument.  It is not even a reason.  WHY is it my duty?

added emphasis on my part.  Of course, most people subscribe to the altruist doctrine which says that man is no more than a sacrificial animal to the 'greater good'. (which would be my explanation for why he said what he said)

[Gustaf]

So then what is one's duties to one's country?  If I have multiple citizenships, would you say I have to pay my 40% tax in Canada and another 35% income tax in the USA since both tax on worldwide income?  It is one's duty to pay 75% income taxes by just breaking $120,000 in income a year?  Stupid.

Income taxes have nothing to do with one's "duty" to one's country.  I would have you show me an argument if you disagree.

I don't believe in multiple citizenship, so it's a moot point. And I agree that it is also stupid, if that's what your last remark is supposed to mean.

I don't think the question of one's duties to one's coountry is much to argue about. I belive they exist, you don't. I haven't seen much argument from your side either.

Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Many people have multiple citizenships.  For UK/France it is not a problem (for example), because they tax not on worldwide income.  Other countries do, and that is a problem.

So once again, would it be a person's duty to pay his 75% in income taxes?

I do believe in duty to one's country, just not income taxes.  At least, not in the United States and Canada.

Eh...do you have even a basic idea of what an argument is like? I could say that in a dictatorship you don't even have the right to your own life, and certainly not to your property. If you replied that you didn't support such systems of government I wouldn't be refuting you by stating that they "exist". I don't believe people should be allowed to be citizens of two countries at the same time. This is a good reason for it.

[memphis]

There is no serious way to get around paying your taxes.

Sure there is. Work as a waiter. It's hardly a secret that most never report a lot of their cash tips.

[Richard]

So then what is one's duties to one's country?  If I have multiple citizenships, would you say I have to pay my 40% tax in Canada and another 35% income tax in the USA since both tax on worldwide income?  It is one's duty to pay 75% income taxes by just breaking $120,000 in income a year?  Stupid.

Income taxes have nothing to do with one's "duty" to one's country.  I would have you show me an argument if you disagree.

I don't believe in multiple citizenship, so it's a moot point. And I agree that it is also stupid, if that's what your last remark is supposed to mean.

I don't think the question of one's duties to one's coountry is much to argue about. I belive they exist, you don't. I haven't seen much argument from your side either.

Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Many people have multiple citizenships.  For UK/France it is not a problem (for example), because they tax not on worldwide income.  Other countries do, and that is a problem.

So once again, would it be a person's duty to pay his 75% in income taxes?

I do believe in duty to one's country, just not income taxes.  At least, not in the United States and Canada.

Eh...do you have even a basic idea of what an argument is like? I could say that in a dictatorship you don't even have the right to your own life, and certainly not to your property. If you replied that you didn't support such systems of government I wouldn't be refuting you by stating that they "exist". I don't believe people should be allowed to be citizens of two countries at the same time. This is a good reason for it.

But people are.  So once again, what is my duty in this case?  Taxes to both countries?

And you didn't answer the first question either: why is it a duty?  On what basis?

[Gustaf]

So then what is one's duties to one's country?  If I have multiple citizenships, would you say I have to pay my 40% tax in Canada and another 35% income tax in the USA since both tax on worldwide income?  It is one's duty to pay 75% income taxes by just breaking $120,000 in income a year?  Stupid.

Income taxes have nothing to do with one's "duty" to one's country.  I would have you show me an argument if you disagree.

I don't believe in multiple citizenship, so it's a moot point. And I agree that it is also stupid, if that's what your last remark is supposed to mean.

I don't think the question of one's duties to one's coountry is much to argue about. I belive they exist, you don't. I haven't seen much argument from your side either.

Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Many people have multiple citizenships.  For UK/France it is not a problem (for example), because they tax not on worldwide income.  Other countries do, and that is a problem.

So once again, would it be a person's duty to pay his 75% in income taxes?

I do believe in duty to one's country, just not income taxes.  At least, not in the United States and Canada.

Eh...do you have even a basic idea of what an argument is like? I could say that in a dictatorship you don't even have the right to your own life, and certainly not to your property. If you replied that you didn't support such systems of government I wouldn't be refuting you by stating that they "exist". I don't believe people should be allowed to be citizens of two countries at the same time. This is a good reason for it.

But people are.  So once again, what is my duty in this case?  Taxes to both countries?

And you didn't answer the first question either: why is it a duty?  On what basis?

If you try to serve two masters that's your problem. But if you want to complain about it, take it up with them. You cannot ask of me to defend consequences of a system that I do not support.

And it's a duty because your obligations to your fellow countrymen entails the obligation to pay taxes. There is also the factor of living in a country that allows its citizens to move. You benefit from living in that country under the system that is has implemented and thus you have to abide by its rules.

[Richard]

The state is not my master!!

For everything in this country, there is some sort of duty or levy.  Why is income tax a duty?

Using your approach of the common good, can we make other things people's duty?  Like mandatory military service for 1 or 2 years after you turn 18?  Perhaps ban smoking, since it will be better for everyone, and it is hence your duty.

It is not a valid approach.

[GOP = Terrorists]

So then what is one's duties to one's country?  If I have multiple citizenships, would you say I have to pay my 40% tax in Canada and another 35% income tax in the USA since both tax on worldwide income?  It is one's duty to pay 75% income taxes by just breaking $120,000 in income a year?  Stupid.

You don't have dual citizenship.  The United States doesn't recognize dual citizenships.

It is a duty because you benefit from the services provided.  Heck you benefit from them whether you personally take advantage of them or not.

[GOP = Terrorists]

Using your approach of the common good, can we make other things people's duty?  Like mandatory military service for 1 or 2 years after you turn 18?  Perhaps ban smoking, since it will be better for everyone, and it is hence your duty.

It is not a valid approach.

Not manditory military service IMO but manditory service yes.

Same goes for the smoking ban.  We ban drugs that cause far less harm than tobacco for the public's good.

[Gustaf]

The state is not my master!!

For everything in this country, there is some sort of duty or levy.  Why is income tax a duty?

Using your approach of the common good, can we make other things people's duty?  Like mandatory military service for 1 or 2 years after you turn 18?  Perhaps ban smoking, since it will be better for everyone, and it is hence your duty.

It is not a valid approach.

1. Yes it is becaus you don't know what valid means.
2. Both of the things you mention are commonplace in the countries of the world. To qoute yourself, "they exist".
3. I never mentioned the common good.
4. Serving two masters is a figurative speech with which I thought you were familiar. If you don't want dual citizenship, give one of them up.
5. What you say has so far been kind of random.

[CultureKing]

The state is not my master!!

For everything in this country, there is some sort of duty or levy.  Why is income tax a duty?

Using your approach of the common good, can we make other things people's duty?  Like mandatory military service for 1 or 2 years after you turn 18?  Perhaps ban smoking, since it will be better for everyone, and it is hence your duty.

It is not a valid approach.

The truth of the matter is that you are basically promoting anarachy with your idea of no income taxes, unless you find another way for the government to get that money it would go bankrupt and not be able to provide even basic necessities. Paying taxes is something that no one likes, but NEARLY everyone realizes the worth of taxes to the community as a whole. And it kinda is part of your duty to your country, remember that FREE education you have recieved all the way through high school, think of this as a way of repaying your dept to the country, be thankful that you live in such a prosperous place. Besides the arguement is a bit moot as unless there is a huge unforseen upheaval in politics then the income tax will not be abolished.

[??????????]

The state is not my master!!

For everything in this country, there is some sort of duty or levy.  Why is income tax a duty?

Using your approach of the common good, can we make other things people's duty?  Like mandatory military service for 1 or 2 years after you turn 18?  Perhaps ban smoking, since it will be better for everyone, and it is hence your duty.

It is not a valid approach.

The truth of the matter is that you are basically promoting anarachy with your idea of no income taxes, unless you find another way for the government to get that money it would go bankrupt and not be able to provide even basic necessities. Paying taxes is something that no one likes, but NEARLY everyone realizes the worth of taxes to the community as a whole. And it kinda is part of your duty to your country, remember that FREE education you have recieved all the way through high school, think of this as a way of repaying your dept to the country, be thankful that you live in such a prosperous place. Besides the arguement is a bit moot as unless there is a huge unforseen upheaval in politics then the income tax will not be abolished.

If what he promotes is "anarchy", please sir, tell me how the US survived before World War I.

[memphis]

The state is not my master!!

For everything in this country, there is some sort of duty or levy.  Why is income tax a duty?

Using your approach of the common good, can we make other things people's duty?  Like mandatory military service for 1 or 2 years after you turn 18?  Perhaps ban smoking, since it will be better for everyone, and it is hence your duty.

It is not a valid approach.

The truth of the matter is that you are basically promoting anarachy with your idea of no income taxes, unless you find another way for the government to get that money it would go bankrupt and not be able to provide even basic necessities. Paying taxes is something that no one likes, but NEARLY everyone realizes the worth of taxes to the community as a whole. And it kinda is part of your duty to your country, remember that FREE education you have recieved all the way through high school, think of this as a way of repaying your dept to the country, be thankful that you live in such a prosperous place. Besides the arguement is a bit moot as unless there is a huge unforseen upheaval in politics then the income tax will not be abolished.

If what he promotes is "anarchy", please sir, tell me how the US survived before World War I.

The country survived through maintaining high tariffs. I like my cheap imports, so I prefer the income tax.

[CultureKing]

The state is not my master!!

For everything in this country, there is some sort of duty or levy.  Why is income tax a duty?

Using your approach of the common good, can we make other things people's duty?  Like mandatory military service for 1 or 2 years after you turn 18?  Perhaps ban smoking, since it will be better for everyone, and it is hence your duty.

It is not a valid approach.

The truth of the matter is that you are basically promoting anarachy with your idea of no income taxes, unless you find another way for the government to get that money it would go bankrupt and not be able to provide even basic necessities. Paying taxes is something that no one likes, but NEARLY everyone realizes the worth of taxes to the community as a whole. And it kinda is part of your duty to your country, remember that FREE education you have recieved all the way through high school, think of this as a way of repaying your dept to the country, be thankful that you live in such a prosperous place. Besides the arguement is a bit moot as unless there is a huge unforseen upheaval in politics then the income tax will not be abolished.

If what he promotes is "anarchy", please sir, tell me how the US survived before World War I.

The country survived through maintaining high tariffs. I like my cheap imports, so I prefer the income tax.

yes, agreed basically what I am saying is that if you do take out the income tax you would have to replace it with some tax that would bring some money or else the government would fall apart.

[opebo]

I just paid my income tax for the year - about $45.

The other teachers who have been here for the full fiscal year paid about $500 though.

[Richard]

So then what is one's duties to one's country?  If I have multiple citizenships, would you say I have to pay my 40% tax in Canada and another 35% income tax in the USA since both tax on worldwide income?  It is one's duty to pay 75% income taxes by just breaking $120,000 in income a year?  Stupid.

You don't have dual citizenship.

I do, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.

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And taxes in Canada and the U.S. is based on residency, not citizenship.

[Richard]

The truth of the matter is that you are basically promoting anarachy with your idea of no income taxes, unless you find another way for the government to get that money it would go bankrupt and not be able to provide even basic necessities.

There was government until 1916, was there not?

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Sheeple

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My parents paid, I never got any free education.

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What debt?

[Richard]

The state is not my master!!

For everything in this country, there is some sort of duty or levy.  Why is income tax a duty?

Using your approach of the common good, can we make other things people's duty?  Like mandatory military service for 1 or 2 years after you turn 18?  Perhaps ban smoking, since it will be better for everyone, and it is hence your duty.

It is not a valid approach.

The truth of the matter is that you are basically promoting anarachy with your idea of no income taxes, unless you find another way for the government to get that money it would go bankrupt and not be able to provide even basic necessities. Paying taxes is something that no one likes, but NEARLY everyone realizes the worth of taxes to the community as a whole. And it kinda is part of your duty to your country, remember that FREE education you have recieved all the way through high school, think of this as a way of repaying your dept to the country, be thankful that you live in such a prosperous place. Besides the arguement is a bit moot as unless there is a huge unforseen upheaval in politics then the income tax will not be abolished.

If what he promotes is "anarchy", please sir, tell me how the US survived before World War I.

The country survived through maintaining high tariffs. I like my cheap imports, so I prefer the income tax.

I think I can create a good federal government.  The federal budget will be $30 billlion a year (averaged to about $100 per person).  No one employed in public office will receive compensation.  Put $29.9 into defense, and take the $100 million and maintain D.C.

Number of services offered to the public: 2
- national defense
- a meeting place for the sovereign States

[Ban my account ffs!]

Okay, now I see you meant the U.S.

You've proved how shortsighted and unrealistic your thinking is.  Defend the U.S on $29 billion per year?  Wow.. that's just stupid thinking right there.

What do you plan to do when all the government officials, military personnel, and government agencies are terminated?  A massive economic crisis would ensue and the U.S would be very vulnerable to attacks from all over.

There's a reason that inept thinking like that doesn't make its way into government.. because it is almost childish in its unrealistic simplicity.

[Democratic Hawk]

Okay, now I see you meant the U.S.

You've proved how shortsighted and unrealistic your thinking is.  Defend the U.S on $29 billion per year?  Wow.. that's just stupid thinking right there.

What do you plan to do when all the government officials, military personnel, and government agencies are terminated?  A massive economic crisis would ensue and the U.S would be very vulnerable to attacks from all over.

There's a reason that inept thinking like that doesn't make its way into government.. because it is almost childish in its unrealistic simplicity.

As very succinct criticism of Richard's argument there. It's pretty obvious that much of 'libertarian' thought on defense and government will, thankfully, never escape beyond the Ivory Tower since most of us live in the real world

Dave

[opebo]

Your taxes are a very small fee to pay, Richious, for the benefit of having the money given to you in the first place.

[Richard]

Okay, now I see you meant the U.S.

You've proved how shortsighted and unrealistic your thinking is.  Defend the U.S on $29 billion per year?  Wow.. that's just stupid thinking right there.

Certainly no invasions of other countries.  Obviously, individuals that are concerned will be allowed to directly contribute to the Department of War.  It will even be encouraged.

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Me?  Nothing.  Obviously what you say is true if you do it over a period of a day.  Did I make such a suggestion?  Did I?

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History proves you wrong.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Well, you said a $30 billion budget... it'll take quite a long time to shrink a budget of $3 trillion down to $30 billion.. certainly not within your life time! 

I don't support invading other countries and I don't get off on parading around the world being the po po... but I am certainly not daft enough to think that the U.S could survive much at all in this world on a budget of $30 billion.  We'd be eaten alive in a matter of months.

We would in effect be clearing the path for another nation, perhaps with even more sinister motives, to take our place... and you would do that for political principle?

And who's gonna take over where the federal government leads off... the states?  We will be a land of 50 separate entities with no national databases, higher poverty, inferior educations, inferior health care, and very vulnerable to attacks with little central organization to respond to such things...

All so YOU.. poor little you don't have to pay your income taxes because you think it's YOUR hard earned money.. what a crock of sh**t.

It seems obvious to me that you really don't understand what would be at stake here.