If Israel Ceases to be a Democracy, Should the U.S. Still Support It?

[Frodo]

Even the religious right in Israel is having qualms about the judicial overhaul proposed by this far-right coalition government.
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I vote 'yes' for realpolitik reasons.  We have supported undemocratic governments in the past during the first Cold War, and I imagine we will do so again in the second Cold War that is just beginning to unfold.  Plus we need to retain leverage and influence over them, and it makes little sense to alienate Israel at a time when we need them as much as they need us, especially in a region as volatile as the Middle East where we need allies.  

[Isaak]

Even the religious right in Israel is having qualms about the judicial overhaul proposed by this far-right coalition government.

...which still would not make Israel a non-democracy. We should be careful with such hyperbole.


Nevertheless, the answer is: Yes. There are plenty of countries supported by the US that are far less democratic than Israel will ever be. And there are as many good reasons for supporting them.

[Darthpi – Anti-Florida Activist]

I'm not going to pretend to know enough about exactly what this judicial bill does to say that Israel would immediately cease to be a democracy if it passes, but if they follow it up - as I believe they likely will - with bans on some or all of the Arab-majority parties that the courts will no longer be able to strike down, *that* would be a drastic anti-democratic step that would definitely merit a US policy response.

And that's not even getting into the fact that we should already be imposing consequences in response to militant Kahanists like Ben-Gvir - a man who fairly openly defends acts of terrorism against the Palestinians - being in the cabinet.

[Comrade Funk]

I support a racist theocratic dictatorship because cOlD WaR GeOpOlItIcS

You can't act like a moralist with Trump when you support/ignore theocratic authoritarianism elsewhere.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Israel would still be better than their neighbors so this answer to this is yes

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

In the same sense that it supports Egypt and Saudi Arabia, sure. The strategic reasons would remain the same and most of the arguments against it reek of a weird form of reverse-exceptionalism.

Of course, the US is in the same danger, so that could certainly skew things.

[Samof94]

I was thinking of the South Africa of “yesterday” that practiced racial segregation into the 1990’s.

[Antonio the Sixth]

At that point the US should provide a bare minimum of support (which could amount to little more than diplomatic deterrence) to ensure Israel isn't wiped off the map (because even a dictatorship is obviously preferable to complete ethnic cleansing) but nothing beyond that.

[lfromnj]

Not sure why Democrats think this is a red line considering most of them want to pack the court.

[CumbrianLefty]

At that point the US should provide a bare minimum of support (which could amount to little more than diplomatic deterrence) to ensure Israel isn't wiped off the map (because even a dictatorship is obviously preferable to complete ethnic cleansing) but nothing beyond that.

Yes, this.

"We won't let you be wiped out of existence, so don't bother playing that card - but everything else is off the table until you learn to behave like a civilised country again. Take it or leave it".

[OSR stands with Israel]

I support a racist theocratic dictatorship because cOlD WaR GeOpOlItIcS

You can't act like a moralist with Trump when you support/ignore theocratic authoritarianism elsewhere.

Trump is still far far better than Israel’s enemies

[Torie]

One of those hypotheticals that depends on the circumstances and facts that gave rise to the situation in order to give a remotely reasonable answer, so no.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

At that point the US should provide a bare minimum of support (which could amount to little more than diplomatic deterrence) to ensure Israel isn't wiped off the map (because even a dictatorship is obviously preferable to complete ethnic cleansing) but nothing beyond that.

Yes, this.

"We won't let you be wiped out of existence, so don't bother playing that card - but everything else is off the table until you learn to behave like a civilised country again. Take it or leave it".

A complicating factor is that some aid - particularly Iron Dome-related - is a deterrent to Israel going into Gaza and causing a much worse war, so that would likely need to stay as well for strategic reasons.

Beyond that, the most valuable thing the US does for Israel and probably the biggest carrot/stick is the veto at the UN.

[KaiserDave]

Agreed with Antonio, but will also add that the threat that Israel might be wiped off the map feels like a mid-to-late 20th century relic. Israel possesses military supremacy over their enemies and has proved it repeatedly, and now most of their former enemies have at least retreated from active plans to attack or have even become partners.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Agreed with Antonio, but will also add that the threat that Israel might be wiped off the map feels like a mid-to-late 20th century relic. Israel possesses military supremacy over their enemies and has proved it repeatedly, and now most of their former enemies have at least retreated from active plans to attack or have even become partners.

It just refers to Iran getting nukes and deciding to global suicide bomber, which is unlikely but not impossible given how unstable the regime is.

There's also the threat of a radical taking over a nuclear country in Europe and deciding to go full Hitler, but that's obviously a more unlikely thing at the moment. Israel can likely win any conventional war, but I don't think that's what they're worried about.

[KaiserDave]

Agreed with Antonio, but will also add that the threat that Israel might be wiped off the map feels like a mid-to-late 20th century relic. Israel possesses military supremacy over their enemies and has proved it repeatedly, and now most of their former enemies have at least retreated from active plans to attack or have even become partners.

It just refers to Iran getting nukes and deciding to global suicide bomber, which is unlikely but not impossible given how unstable the regime is.

There's also the threat of a radical taking over a nuclear country in Europe and deciding to go full Hitler, but that's obviously a more unlikely thing at the moment. Israel can likely win any conventional war, but I don't think that's what they're worried about.

The former option is very unlikely and the latter one is not worth discussing seriously. In any case my point is that Israel has a lot more independent security than they used to.

[Upper Canada Tory]

   I'm not sure I entirely agree with the premise of the question. Even if the judicial reform passes, which I definitely do not support, does not mean Israel ceases to be a democracy. It has the potential to hurt Israel's credentials as a democratic state, but there are many seemingly democratic states that are less democratic than Israel and lack an independent judiciary that still have the unwavering support of the United States (Ukraine being the most recent example).

   From a geopolitical point of view, the US is still responsible for maintaining global hegemony and Israel helps achieve this goal in terms of combatting the influence of the current Iranian regime and particularly now a potentially nuclear-armed Tehran, so from that perspective, it is still in the interest of the US to support Israel. However, I guess one's answer to this question ultimately depends on how one views geopolitics and US involvement in international relations.

[Person Man]

They exist because of the United States and there is a price they owe the United States. They can’t be allowed to do whatever they want.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

They exist because of the United States and there is a price they owe the United States. They can’t be allowed to do whatever they want.

This is objectively untrue and reeks of empire and blackmail. The US had an arms embargo against all participants in the 1948 war and Israel won its independence on its own.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Whether or not Israel is supported by the US is not decided by whether or not it is a "democracy", but rather, whether it serves the American national interest, which in turn is the path of least resistance to a global winning coalition. You cannot form a winning coalition with just "democracy" nations. And just because it is in the camp of "democracy" nations means that is part of that path of least resistance.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

We shouldn't support Israel even when it is a democracy, as long as the Haredi parties are in government.

[pppolitics]

Whether or not Israel is supported by the US is not decided by whether or not it is a "democracy", but rather, whether it serves the American national interest, which in turn is the path of least resistance to a global winning coalition. You cannot form a winning coalition with just "democracy" nations. And just because it is in the camp of "democracy" nations means that is part of that path of least resistance.

How does Israel serve American's "national interest"?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Whether or not Israel is supported by the US is not decided by whether or not it is a "democracy", but rather, whether it serves the American national interest, which in turn is the path of least resistance to a global winning coalition. You cannot form a winning coalition with just "democracy" nations. And just because it is in the camp of "democracy" nations means that is part of that path of least resistance.

How does Israel serve American's "national interest"?

First and sometimes exclusive access to the military technology coming out of the best R&D sector in the world.

[TheReckoning]

Democracy is not inherently good and autocracy is not inherently bad, so countries shouldn’t be rewarded/punished on those axis.

[YPestis25]

Democracy is not inherently good and autocracy is not inherently bad, so countries shouldn’t be rewarded/punished on those axis.

Your brain on moral relativism folks!