Trans controvesy engulfs the NYT

[Liminal Trans Girl]

And here I thought that posting a trans related article under cover of the NYT's respectability would prove mitigating. Oh well. Perhaps another approach would be to allow posts on this thread only by those who have proved to my satisfaction that they not only watched the entirety of the 3.5 hour video, but did so with rapt attention, taking extensive notes.

Given the passions created, trans issues must trip some wire deep within the human psyche of those still facing the challenge of coping with their hormones.

Anyway, because I created the thread, I did feel duty bound to read it all. Wearing the editor hate, prior to publication I would  I would have culled the word count way down, given how much of it was repetitive. And it would be nice to have had at least one smoking gun just for shock and awe purposes. But alas no.

I suspect some of the passion is precisely because much is just not known about the issue at present, but that is just a suspicion. Unlike so many here, I don't pretend to have much knowledge about the issue. I really don't.

Neither do I. My position is that if its not hurting anyone, we shouldn't care about what they're doing in their life.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Btw not to shock anyone but the whistleblower that Alben was hung up on and set off the controversy in the OP is getting pushback from patients
https://mobile.twitter.com/ryanlcooper/status/1628780479116705792
https://mobile.twitter.com/ryanlcooper/status/1628810995329007616

[Torie]

Different patients may have been handled differently by different care givers at different points in time under different policies. For example, maybe the policies changed after Reed made complaints internally, and was called on the carpet for it, and then sucked it up, least she be fired. Maybe this, maybe that.

One assumes that in any investigation, all the patient files will be reviewed. Testimonials to the press by various individuals is no substitute for that, or on what a reasoned judgement can be made.

Be patient.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Different patients may have been handled differently by different care givers at different points in time under different policies. For example, maybe the policies changed after Reed made complaints internally, and was called on the carpet for it, and then sucked it up, least she be fired. Maybe this, maybe that.

One assumes that in any investigation, all the patient files will be reviewed. Testimonials to the press by various individuals is no substitute for that, or on what a reasoned judgement can be made.

Be patient.

One of the people who is pushing back was someone Reed was a caseworker on though

[7,052,770]

Different patients may have been handled differently by different care givers at different points in time under different policies. For example, maybe the policies changed after Reed made complaints internally, and was called on the carpet for it, and then sucked it up, least she be fired. Maybe this, maybe that.

One assumes that in any investigation, all the patient files will be reviewed. Testimonials to the press by various individuals is no substitute for that, or on what a reasoned judgement can be made.

Be patient.

One person disagreeing doesn't disprove anything, but the fact that the article has been out there a month and I haven't seen a shred of corroboration, or any patient agreeing that they were mistreated, strongly suggests it wasn't true.

I'll keep being patient just in case though.

[Torie]

Fair enough. What would Reed's motive be for making it all up however? Or is she the crazy one?

[7,052,770]

Fair enough. What would Reed's motive be for making it all up however? Or is she the crazy one?

Who knows? She could be mistaken, lying, exaggerating, insane, paid off, or any combination or other thing. It sure looks like she's wrong somehow though.

[Dan the Roman]

Fair enough. What would Reed's motive be for making it all up however? Or is she the crazy one?

What stands out is the more identical story and whistleblower testimony about Tavistock appearing in the Times around the same time. She is not the only person on earth making these sorts of charges. Almost every country with a major gender clinic seems to be producing whistleblowers who found similar stuff, and the Cass report/internal reports in Sweden seem to have corroborated enough of the concerns to shutdown the clinics in question.

Some of the problems are likely innate to the nature of the treatment. As is evident in this thread or discourse, even within Trans circles Trandsmedicalists and the more activist elements who have largely won power struggles within WPATH against figures like Marci Bowers have very different views of what the purpose of this entire field is. Is it to actually allow an individual to change gender? In which case it is a last resort for those with a mental condition, and embarking on it has to be weighed against the reality that the medical technology is limited, and that results will vary. In which case it is the duty of carers to exhaust all other options first, and  actively discourage those who for physical or genetic reasons are likely to get poor results from embarking on treatment?

Or is the treatment itself a solution? In which case efforts to discourage are gatekeeping and conversion therapy. Furthermore, if the concern is depression, then providing that sort of counseling might be "harmful." So in that sense lying to prospective patients is a form of treatment.

I suspect that is where a lot of the Whistleblowers deviate. Others at the clinics feel that in effect telling patients "you will never actually be a man/woman" is a transphobic dog whistle, while some of the staff feel it is a statement of medical fact.

Part of the problem with these threads and the "research" being posted is that very different questions are being asked.

[Horus]

Fair enough. What would Reed's motive be for making it all up however? Or is she the crazy one?

What stands out is the more identical story and whistleblower testimony about Tavistock appearing in the Times around the same time. She is not the only person on earth making these sorts of charges. Almost every country with a major gender clinic seems to be producing whistleblowers who found similar stuff, and the Cass report/internal reports in Sweden seem to have corroborated enough of the concerns to shutdown the clinics in question.

Some of the problems are likely innate to the nature of the treatment. As is evident in this thread or discourse, even within Trans circles Trandsmedicalists and the more activist elements who have largely won power struggles within WPATH against figures like Marci Bowers have very different views of what the purpose of this entire field is. Is it to actually allow an individual to change gender? In which case it is a last resort for those with a mental condition, and embarking on it has to be weighed against the reality that the medical technology is limited, and that results will vary. In which case it is the duty of carers to exhaust all other options first, and  actively discourage those who for physical or genetic reasons are likely to get poor results from embarking on treatment?

Or is the treatment itself a solution? In which case efforts to discourage are gatekeeping and conversion therapy. Furthermore, if the concern is depression, then providing that sort of counseling might be "harmful." So in that sense lying to prospective patients is a form of treatment.

I suspect that is where a lot of the Whistleblowers deviate. Others at the clinics feel that in effect telling patients "you will never actually be a man/woman" is a transphobic dog whistle, while some of the staff feel it is a statement of medical fact.

Part of the problem with these threads and the "research" being posted is that very different questions are being asked.

Nothing to add but just wanted to say I really appreciate your input in any threads about The Discourse. You are very knowledgeable but also not in either camp of extremes. Both Matt Walsh and Lia Thomas could learn a lot from you.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Fair enough. What would Reed's motive be for making it all up however? Or is she the crazy one?

What stands out is the more identical story and whistleblower testimony about Tavistock appearing in the Times around the same time. She is not the only person on earth making these sorts of charges. Almost every country with a major gender clinic seems to be producing whistleblowers who found similar stuff, and the Cass report/internal reports in Sweden seem to have corroborated enough of the concerns to shutdown the clinics in question.

Some of the problems are likely innate to the nature of the treatment. As is evident in this thread or discourse, even within Trans circles Trandsmedicalists and the more activist elements who have largely won power struggles within WPATH against figures like Marci Bowers have very different views of what the purpose of this entire field is. Is it to actually allow an individual to change gender? In which case it is a last resort for those with a mental condition, and embarking on it has to be weighed against the reality that the medical technology is limited, and that results will vary. In which case it is the duty of carers to exhaust all other options first, and  actively discourage those who for physical or genetic reasons are likely to get poor results from embarking on treatment?

Or is the treatment itself a solution? In which case efforts to discourage are gatekeeping and conversion therapy. Furthermore, if the concern is depression, then providing that sort of counseling might be "harmful." So in that sense lying to prospective patients is a form of treatment.

I suspect that is where a lot of the Whistleblowers deviate. Others at the clinics feel that in effect telling patients "you will never actually be a man/woman" is a transphobic dog whistle, while some of the staff feel it is a statement of medical fact.

Part of the problem with these threads and the "research" being posted is that very different questions are being asked.

Nothing to add but just wanted to say I really appreciate your input in any threads about The Discourse. You are very knowledgeable but also not in either camp of extremes. Both Matt Walsh and Lia Thomas could learn a lot from you.

I feel part of the discourse is harmed by the fact people like you put someone like Lia Thomas on some type of equal footing with Matt Walsh. Like seriously trying to participate in women swimming is as bad as this https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=540113.0

[7,052,770]

Agreed, comparing one random trans person as the ideological equivalent of Matt Walsh is ridiculous. All Thomas did was follow the [not well designed] rules that the NCAA put out there. Those rules have since been fixed.

It's not like she fought for this special right or demanded it. The bad rule was made by the NCAA before she even transitioned.

[7,052,770]

Fair enough. What would Reed's motive be for making it all up however? Or is she the crazy one?

What stands out is the more identical story and whistleblower testimony about Tavistock appearing in the Times around the same time. She is not the only person on earth making these sorts of charges. Almost every country with a major gender clinic seems to be producing whistleblowers who found similar stuff, and the Cass report/internal reports in Sweden seem to have corroborated enough of the concerns to shutdown the clinics in question.

Whatever is alleged to have happened in England or Sweden or wherever has no bearing on this story.

I have already pre-condemned everything described in the "article" (blog post), and will continue to do so if it's corroborated. I just strongly suspect that it never will be corroborated. We'll see.

[Dan the Roman]

Fair enough. What would Reed's motive be for making it all up however? Or is she the crazy one?

What stands out is the more identical story and whistleblower testimony about Tavistock appearing in the Times around the same time. She is not the only person on earth making these sorts of charges. Almost every country with a major gender clinic seems to be producing whistleblowers who found similar stuff, and the Cass report/internal reports in Sweden seem to have corroborated enough of the concerns to shutdown the clinics in question.

Some of the problems are likely innate to the nature of the treatment. As is evident in this thread or discourse, even within Trans circles Trandsmedicalists and the more activist elements who have largely won power struggles within WPATH against figures like Marci Bowers have very different views of what the purpose of this entire field is. Is it to actually allow an individual to change gender? In which case it is a last resort for those with a mental condition, and embarking on it has to be weighed against the reality that the medical technology is limited, and that results will vary. In which case it is the duty of carers to exhaust all other options first, and  actively discourage those who for physical or genetic reasons are likely to get poor results from embarking on treatment?

Or is the treatment itself a solution? In which case efforts to discourage are gatekeeping and conversion therapy. Furthermore, if the concern is depression, then providing that sort of counseling might be "harmful." So in that sense lying to prospective patients is a form of treatment.

I suspect that is where a lot of the Whistleblowers deviate. Others at the clinics feel that in effect telling patients "you will never actually be a man/woman" is a transphobic dog whistle, while some of the staff feel it is a statement of medical fact.

Part of the problem with these threads and the "research" being posted is that very different questions are being asked.

Nothing to add but just wanted to say I really appreciate your input in any threads about The Discourse. You are very knowledgeable but also not in either camp of extremes. Both Matt Walsh and Lia Thomas could learn a lot from you.

I am in a weird spot because on policy-matters I disagree with most of what conservatives are doing.

But I also find almost all the rhetoric on the other side off-putting. It actually reminds me of Brexit. During the referendum I had a strong emotional desire to vote Leave in reaction to what I felt was a Remain campaign which was openly insulting me, and I had to remind myself it was a stupid idea which would lead to bad consequences.

If people don't agree it does not mean they didn't hear you or that the answer is to yell at them more loudly, insult them, or get angry. So much of the discourse is about validation and wanting to hear people repeat words back, and I find that both abusive and counterproductive.

I actually read through Erin Reed's substack "debunking" of the Reed charges and it basically boils down to a mixture of guilt by association and appeals to authority. I can come up with a lot more reasons for skepticism which are more generous, namely the above, but people don't seem to be trying. And really extreme policies will be passed because this has now turned into a game about power and self-respect, not about best practices.

[coloradocowboi]

It's getting tough to argue that this isn't the most dangerous issue for people in media to talk honestly about. Israel-Palestine might even be less contentious at this point.

Steven Donziger was jailed for covering oil companies' corruption and pollution. Jamal Khashoggi was assassinated.

The transgender panic is insufferable. It literally affects nobody but transgender people. Who btw are prolly a little on the bristly side because they are tired of being a media sideshow attraction too.

Also, I would be remiss not to note that it is still way more dangerous to be transgender than a reporter covering them. 32 trans women were murdered in 2022, many by bfs, johns, and those who hate them. It is so much more dangerous to be trans than a reporter covering them.

[DaleCooper]

It's getting tough to argue that this isn't the most dangerous issue for people in media to talk honestly about. Israel-Palestine might even be less contentious at this point.

Steven Donziger was jailed for covering oil companies' corruption and pollution. Jamal Khashoggi was assassinated.

Yeah, that's fair

[7,052,770]

Fair enough. What would Reed's motive be for making it all up however? Or is she the crazy one?

Who knows? She could be mistaken, lying, exaggerating, insane, paid off, or any combination or other thing. It sure looks like she's wrong somehow though.

Not sure if this is the right place to post this (I thought there was a thread all about the allegations, but maybe it was deleted?), but it looks like we can safely label this one debunked.

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1631117218019790848

(Sorry for linking an article that requires you to turn off your AdBlocker. I generally refuse to do that out of principle, but this was important enough to read.)

[Ferguson97]

Fair enough. What would Reed's motive be for making it all up however? Or is she the crazy one?

Who knows? She could be mistaken, lying, exaggerating, insane, paid off, or any combination or other thing. It sure looks like she's wrong somehow though.

Not sure if this is the right place to post this (I thought there was a thread all about the allegations, but maybe it was deleted?), but it looks like we can safely label this one debunked.

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1631117218019790848

(Sorry for linking an article that requires you to turn off your AdBlocker. I generally refuse to do that out of principle, but this was important enough to read.)

Wow, who could have predicted this — except for you know, anyone with a brain?

[7,052,770]

Wow, who could have predicted this — except for you know, anyone with a brain?

Certainly not the people who were angry at me for simply asking the question of whether the "whistleblower" would have even been able to know the things she claimed (turns out the answer is apparently not) or whether anyone from the clinic would corroborate her accusations (also no, at least so far, even as the SLPD found a few parents who weren't 100% satisfied with the clinic overall)...

[afleitch]

Yeah.

It was pretty obvious.

On the day it was published, people who worked at similar clinics said there's no way she'd have access to what she claimed to. No one asked the clinic, no one asked the parents. It's a theme with these panic pieces.

[afleitch]

I mean come on

https://mobile.twitter.com/RottenInDenmark/status/1631093426975571969

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Puts the multitude of hissy fits that right of center posters here made over being "censored", which of course they absolutely never were, in a whole new light.

What a (expected) joke.

[RussFeingoldWasRobbed]

I'm sorry but what do you guys want, a medal? Like Roman has said, other whistleblowers have said similar things. This needs to be investigated and if these clinics are not following best practices there should be consequences. If you want trans children's  rights to be protected in this country, you need to weed out the bad apple clinics

[T'Chenka]

I'm sorry but what do you guys want, a medal? Like Roman has said, other whistleblowers have said similar things. This needs to be investigated and if these clinics are not following best practices there should be consequences. If you want trans children's  rights to be protected in this country, you need to weed out the bad apple clinics

Many right wingers don't ACTUALLY want a bunch of investigations, because that would expose that 99% of these whistleblowers are full of s__t. By all means, investigate it all. Get it over with. The sooner we expose that the right wing is lying, the better.

[7,052,770]

I'm sorry but what do you guys want, a medal?

Sure. Otherwise maybe people shouldn't get angry and/or dismissive when someone asks if there is any corroborating evidence to a bombshell accusation like this.

Like Roman has said, other whistleblowers have said similar things.

Who? When? Did those turn out to be hoaxes too?

This needs to be investigated and if these clinics are not following best practices there should be consequences.

That's what we said all along, while the angry and anti-trans people wanted to just believe it uncriticially because it confirmed their priors.

If you want trans children's  rights to be protected in this country, you need to weed out the bad apple clinics

Sure, if "bad apple clinics" even exist in the first place, which I have yet to see any evidence of.

[Ferguson97]

I'm sorry but what do you guys want, a medal?

I want you guys to leave trans people alone