Which user are you closer to on trans issues?

[jamestroll]

I know it sounds weak on me, but I do urge some caution on transgender politics from Democrats. It is a losing issue in certain states.

We will have to let time and education and increments allow for tolerance from people.

Summer and Fall 2021 when I knocked on doors for Terry McAufflie... it wasn't CRT complaints I got.. a lot of people brought of trans issues. I do think part of the reason Wexton underperforms are trans issues.

[Lexii, harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy]

I'm definitely closer to Ferguson on trans issues, I don't think this comes as a surprise to anyone

[Alben Barkley]

Dude, you posted an article meant to demonize trans women as sex pests. Don't push this "I'm respectful" crap.

If the mods (one of whom later admitted he fully agreed with everything I said) had allowed me to post my commentary along with that article and let it stand, you would see that is not at all what I was doing. If that's what you got from literally just a link to the article itself though, I don't know what to tell you. It's not what I for one got from it, intended to mean by posting it, or what I believe.

[Alben Barkley]

What's wrong with Ferguson, especially on trans issues?

Obviously far too accepting of trans people and willing to defend them.

Pretty much this. He's so accepting and willing to defend trans people that I almost feel as if he's a psyop designed to make transphobes look reasonable.

You're so close to getting it... It almost feels like you KNOW I am the more reasonable debater making more reasonable points, yet feel compelled to falsely deride me as a "transphobe" anyway because you see this more as a team sports thing where I simply must be on the wrong "side" than a matter of logic and principle.

"In Your Heart, You Know He's Right" maybe?

Lol

[Alben Barkley]

I'd rather be too accepting of trans people than not at all accepting of them.

Alben [is] not some raging transphobe who wants all trans people to die.

Are you out of your mind? Even if you believe him when he says these things, he's way too obsessed with the issue. No wonder he views Good Old J.K. as a maternal figure; he inherited her obsession with the trannies.

If I was in the UK, I could sue you for libel for the outlandish claim that I "want all trans people to die." Rowling has shown remarkable restraint for not doing the same, frankly.

Oh and as for the "maternal figure" thing, what I said (quite some time ago) was that Rowling's books had sentimental value to me due to their impact on me as a kid, and thus I felt compelled to defend her the same way I would defend my own mother. I never said I saw her as some surrogate mother figure, but of course this has been grotesquely exaggerated and taken out of context as well.

[Alben Barkley]

I'd rather be too accepting of trans people than not at all accepting of them.

Alben [is] not some raging transphobe who wants all trans people to die.

Are you out of your mind? Even if you believe him when he says these things, he's way too obsessed with the issue. No wonder he views Good Old J.K. as a maternal figure; he inherited her obsession with the trannies.

This 1000%. This really gets to my annoyance with Alben (and JK). It’d be one thing if they like 1 time said something anti trans and got hounded for it but both of them can’t shut the f**k up about it. JK tweets about trans stuff 24/7 and practically every train wreck thread that dealt with trans issues Alben was either the OP and said something awful or 1 of the first posters to stir sh*t on it

Sounds like you just want people who disagree with you to keep their mouths shut.

Very authoritarian, and frankly only compels those of us who hate such authoritarian attitudes to speak out more.

[Alben Barkley]

Girldick is real.

I didn't bother reading any of Alben's essay, but as a bepeniled woman, this is objectively true. A trans woman's penis may still be a penis, but estrogen really does a number on the thing, and to claim otherwise is an affront to the Biological Reality™ he claims to uphold.

"I didn't read it, lol I'm proudly ignorant of what I'm talking about and who I'm making slanderous claims of genocidal bigotry against, but lol he must be wrong."

No one said estrogen doesn't do "a number on the thing," but the fact of the matter is a penis is not a female part biologically, no matter what's been done to it. Otherwise why would it even cause you "dysphoria" and why would the endgoal for most trans women seem to be to rid themselves of it?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Alben, easily. It gives me hope for the future seeing a partisan Democrat like him holding the line and not just changing with the winds.

[world.execute(me)]

My god Alben, responding to 5 posts in a row(in 5 separate posts) is one thing, but did you have to make them so petty and childish as well?

[Alben Barkley]

    Alben, easily. It gives me hope for the future seeing a partisan Democrat like him holding the line and not just changing with the winds.

I appreciate that.

Honestly, if I wanted my life to be easier as this issue becomes more potent, I could either change parties or change positions. And both have seemed like tempting prospects at times. But either would feel like a betrayal of myself, and I don't see myself ever doing either one, however difficult it may be, especially when you are routinely subject to slanderous abuse like has been seen in this thread, and when you can't exactly run into the arms of the Republicans to commiserate. I will hold the line as long as I can.

And note: My stance on this issue is mainstream for a Democrat pre-2015 or so, if not later (hell I didn't really start speaking up or seeing a problem until after Rowling was attacked in 2020). I support people's rights to live as they please, I just won't stop acknowledging basic differences between the sexes, which was never even demanded of me until relatively recently. I just never, as you said, "changed with the winds," and it honestly shocks me a little how many DID do just that so readily. It's pretty radical to suddenly pretend like there's no difference between a penis and a vagina, between a male and female body, etc. in any way that counts. And I refuse to say the emperor has clothes when he manifestly does NOT.

[world.execute(me)]

    Alben, easily. It gives me hope for the future seeing a partisan Democrat like him holding the line and not just changing with the winds.

I appreciate that.

Honestly, if I wanted my life to be easier as this issue becomes more potent, I could either change parties or change positions. And both have seemed like tempting prospects at times. But either would feel like a betrayal of myself, and I don't see myself ever doing either one, however difficult it may be, especially when you are routinely subject to slanderous abuse like has been seen in this thread, and when you can't exactly run into the arms of the Republicans to commiserate. I will hold the line as long as I can.

And note: My stance on this issue is mainstream for a Democrat pre-2015 or so, if not later (hell I didn't really start speaking up or seeing a problem until after Rowling was attacked in 2020). I support people's rights to live as they please, I just won't stop acknowledging basic differences between the sexes, which was never even demanded of me until relatively recently. I just never, as you said, "changed with the winds," and it honestly shocks me a little how many DID do just that so readily. It's pretty radical to suddenly pretend like there's no difference between a penis and a vagina, between a male and female body, etc. in any way that counts. And I refuse to say the emperor has clothes when he manifestly does NOT.

Rowling was first really "attacked" when she claimed a woman who was fired for constantly misgendering a trans coworker and refusing to stop was just "stating sex is real". You seem to honestly believe the way you're framing your beliefs, but genuinely believed bullcrap is still bullcrap.

[Trans Rights Are Human Rights]

You're so close to getting it... It almost feels like you KNOW I am the more reasonable debater making more reasonable points, yet feel compelled to falsely deride me as a "transphobe" anyway because you see this more as a team sports thing where I simply must be on the wrong "side" than a matter of logic and principle.

"In Your Heart, You Know He's Right" maybe?

Lol

No. I hate myself for being trans, and believe everyone wants to murder me (and other trans people) for it, but the aforementioned other trans people are fine.

If I was in the UK, I could sue you for libel for the outlandish claim that I "want all trans people to die." Rowling has shown remarkable restraint for not doing the same, frankly.

It's not libel if it's a good thing (and let's be real, if trans people disappeared off the face of the earth, I don't think there'd be anyone left to view it as a bad thing).

"I didn't read it, lol I'm proudly ignorant of what I'm talking about and who I'm making slanderous claims of genocidal bigotry against, but lol he must be wrong."

Also, *libelous

No one said estrogen doesn't do "a number on the thing," but the fact of the matter is a penis is not a female part biologically, no matter what's been done to it.

Evidently, someone did. Trans women are women, no matter how many lies you tell. Sure, I'm not a biological woman (and I still don't know why biological sex is more important than literally everything else), but that doesn't mean I'm not a woman at all.

Otherwise why would it even cause you "dysphoria" and why would the endgoal for most trans women seem to be to rid themselves of it?

Why is dysphoria in scare quotes? I know exactly what's between my legs and how it makes me feel. And yeah, most girls don't have that, but there are girls who do.

[Alben Barkley]

I haven't even read the latest posts yet; I have a life, I'll get to them eventually.

I just want to point out how hilarious it is to me that Ferguson simped about as hard as it is humanly possible for anyone to simp for TRAs, and yet was thrown under the bus by them for it anyway, accused of being a "psyop" for "transphobes" because his debating skills were so bad that it MUST have been a deliberate set-up so "transphobes" could easily win arguments against him. (And frankly, given the demographics of this site, I think having about 60/40 or less here siding against me counts as a win for me.)

It just goes to show that there is nothing you can do, no amount of groveling or kindness or appeasement, that will ever be enough for certain radical TRAs. Anything short of getting absolutely all 8 billion people in the world to agree with them that there is no difference between male and female is a failure, to these people. This, of course, is an utterly insane and completely unachievable goal. Which is why the effort is doomed to failure.

In my deleted post about the stupid YMCA incident, I actually was trying to sympathize with the TRAs and give them advice: The movement for marriage equality worked because gay rights activists successfully portrayed themselves as ordinary, reasonable, moderate people who simply wanted the same rights and dignity as anybody else. This was a sympathetic argument that melted the heart of even an old conservative Catholic justice like Anthony Kennedy.

"SUCK THE GIRLDICK OR DIE, BIGOT!" is, however, NOT the same kind of approach and inevitably will NOT be as successful, to say the least. Yet it seems to be the predominant kind of strategy TRAs have chosen to put forth. They might as well be slamming their heads against a brick wall, it would be just as productive if not more! Because at least it wouldn't be as actively COUNTER-productive as whatever the hell this whole "You either agree with everything I say or you want me and everyone like me to LITERALLY DIE, HITLER!!!!" thing is.

"You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar" is literally one of the oldest sayings in the book. I'm just saying, if TRAs wanted to actually get somewhere with their movement, they would hire me and follow my advice which would largely just consist of sayings from my grandma, and they'd go much farther much faster than they have thus far. It almost feels like they WANT to fail and make everyone hate them as it is, however.

[GM Team Member and Deputy PPT WB]

"SUCK THE GIRLDICK OR DIE, BIGOT!"

based.

[Trans Rights Are Human Rights]

It just goes to show that there is nothing you can do, no amount of groveling or kindness or appeasement, that will ever be enough for certain radical TRAs. Anything short of getting absolutely all 8 billion people in the world to agree with them that there is no difference between male and female is a failure, to these people. This, of course, is an utterly insane and completely unachievable goal. Which is why the effort is doomed to failure.

What are you talking about? I don't believe "that there is no difference between male and female". I know full well that nobody, least of all myself, will ever see me as anything but a mentally ill freak who deserves everything bad that's coming his way. I just wish that wasn't the case.

[7,052,770]

Alben's actual views on trans people aren't out of the mainstream at all. His issue is with framing and style, not the substance itself.

However, he has gotten it into his head that all the fake provocateurs and bots he sees on Twitter are what Democrats actually believe, egged on by Republicans who have invented this whole trans culture war out of thin air. Who in real life is this "radical TRA" strawman he keeps arguing against?

He says that he recognizes that gender and sex are different and that he treats people with respect and uses the preferred pronouns. That's the Democratic position. What's the problem? How have the Democrats let fringe Republicans redefine the "default" positions of the parties to the point where Democrats are believing it? Every time he's ranting about these "radical TRAs" I'm like "man, I'm one of the most pro-trans cis people here and this caricature he's presenting doesn't resemble me at all."

[Xing]

I haven't even read the latest posts yet; I have a life, I'll get to them eventually.

I just want to point out how hilarious it is to me that Ferguson simped about as hard as it is humanly possible for anyone to simp for TRAs, and yet was thrown under the bus by them for it anyway, accused of being a "psyop" for "transphobes" because his debating skills were so bad that it MUST have been a deliberate set-up so "transphobes" could easily win arguments against him. (And frankly, given the demographics of this site, I think having about 60/40 or less here siding against me counts as a win for me.)

It just goes to show that there is nothing you can do, no amount of groveling or kindness or appeasement, that will ever be enough for certain radical TRAs. Anything short of getting absolutely all 8 billion people in the world to agree with them that there is no difference between male and female is a failure, to these people. This, of course, is an utterly insane and completely unachievable goal. Which is why the effort is doomed to failure.

In my deleted post about the stupid YMCA incident, I actually was trying to sympathize with the TRAs and give them advice: The movement for marriage equality worked because gay rights activists successfully portrayed themselves as ordinary, reasonable, moderate people who simply wanted the same rights and dignity as anybody else. This was a sympathetic argument that melted the heart of even an old conservative Catholic justice like Anthony Kennedy.

"SUCK THE GIRLDICK OR DIE, BIGOT!" is, however, NOT the same kind of approach and inevitably will NOT be as successful, to say the least. Yet it seems to be the predominant kind of strategy TRAs have chosen to put forth. They might as well be slamming their heads against a brick wall, it would be just as productive if not more! Because at least it wouldn't be as actively COUNTER-productive as whatever the hell this whole "You either agree with everything I say or you want me and everyone like me to LITERALLY DIE, HITLER!!!!" thing is.

"You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar" is literally one of the oldest sayings in the book. I'm just saying, if TRAs wanted to actually get somewhere with their movement, they would hire me and follow my advice which would largely just consist of sayings from my grandma, and they'd go much farther much faster than they have thus far. It almost feels like they WANT to fail and make everyone hate them as it is, however.

I don’t think your views are out of the mainstream at all, and the median left-winger’s views aren’t too far from yours. But good god, give a rest. You’re not helping your case with these melodramatic manifestos, nor claiming that you personally have the perfect playbook for the movement to follow. You can have whatever views you want on the issue, but if you keep making these long-winded self-victimizing rants, don’t be surprised when people don’t respond positively.

[7,052,770]

How is this even a decision at all? Did Joe Biden talk about "girldick" or "there is literally no difference between men and women at all" last night? Did anyone in the Democratic Party? Why equate what unverified fake accounts say on social media with what actually is said and done by prominent Republican politicians?

This can't be you, can it?

[Vosem]

Not sure. On the one hand, I'm not actually super comfortable with the state saying that parents and doctors cannot allow their children to transition, if that's what they give informed consent to and it happens under the supervision of a medical professional. More generally, we're on the verge -- we're basically there -- of there being lots of technologies that can change a person's appearance or affect (besides transgenderism, it is not unheard of in South Korea for healthy children to receive HGH treatment so they will be taller as adults, you can have pick an embryo in the US for traits you want, and FTR if you are familiar with the science you can use the information given you by these companies to make selections for personality traits; there are other things I can imagine besides this) and I think it would be a disaster to any proposed right to bodily autonomy or privacy for these things to be meaningfully restricted.

On the other hand, I think the idea that people who transition actually become equivalent to their preferred gender is, unfortunately, nonsense. (Maybe someday it won't be, but that day is not close on the horizon). The distinction that is insisted upon between 'sex' and 'gender', including in this thread, tends to obscure more than it reveals, and there are a zillion situations (women's sports are a stupid example; prisons might be another) in which it just makes more sense, administratively, to categorize people as belonging to their birth sex/chromosomal sex/you know what I mean. I think changing social rituals in ways that emphasize the existence of trans people (such as by making everyone announce pronouns in certain settings) is also dumb and annoying, although this might just be that I associate these rituals with the Permanent Metastasizing Bureaucracy, which is dumb, annoying, and threatening. Also, while I think you should be kind and address people in the ways that they want, I am also a free-speech absolutist, and I don't think anyone in society should even have the ability to censor transphobia (or any other kind of offensive belief) from some setting where it exists.

So, not sure whether I agree more with Alben or Ferguson. I think I've said stuff that would upset both of them?

[world.execute(me)]

I haven't even read the latest posts yet; I have a life, I'll get to them eventually.

I just want to point out how hilarious it is to me that Ferguson simped about as hard as it is humanly possible for anyone to simp for TRAs, and yet was thrown under the bus by them for it anyway, accused of being a "psyop" for "transphobes" because his debating skills were so bad that it MUST have been a deliberate set-up so "transphobes" could easily win arguments against him. (And frankly, given the demographics of this site, I think having about 60/40 or less here siding against me counts as a win for me.)

He was only accused of being a psyop by peebs, a woman who is full of self loathing and incapable of imagining a cis person who doesn't hate trans people violently. That's not the significant thing you think it is.

[Mechavada]

Well me and Ferguson97 basically have the same view on this issue so. . . . . . . . . sorry Alben.

[Mechavada]

Just treat people with respect irrespective of your own knee jerk reaction views.

This is actually what I try to do. Not saying I'm perfect, but I try to be respectful.

It's not like I don't use people's preferred pronouns or treat them as their preferred gender, after all. It's just that it seemed to me in the past, when we had a much smaller trans population, people understood this was a legal fiction and social nicety. No one was claiming that they were LITERALLY the same thing as people born as the biological sex they preferred, as Ferguson has seemed to imply a few times (and I apologize if I am mischaracterizing his views, but it seems to me he believes sex can LITERALLY be changed or is somehow not rooted in biological reality, which is simply untrue). It's just THAT particular "2+2=5" stuff which really gets under my skin. Feels like people are telling me to not believe my own lying eyes. And THAT, no matter what "side" it is coming from or what the intentions behind it are, is the kind of thing that is going to get a "kneejerk" reaction of defiance out of me 100% of the time. I will play nice, I will go along with people's preferred pronouns and treat them as they wish to be treated, no problem. What I will not do is redefine reality or pretend that my senses are wrong or that there is such a thing as a "girldick" or whatever. A line simply has to be drawn somewhere.

But yes, the theoretical level is very different from the real world, where most anyone with a thread of decency and social awareness will treat people as they want to be treated regardless of personal views on the nature of sex and gender identity. I strongly disagree with and do not associate myself with TERFs and such who do not do this.

Now where this does get a little more complicated is matters like sports, where acknowledging biological realities becomes a necessity, and where it seems particularly mad to me to pretend otherwise. Doesn't mean you have to stop treating people with respect, it's just that we have to drop the pretense and legal fiction a little bit and gently remind people that they have unfair advantages for obvious biological reasons. Or at least, that's how it SHOULD be. Unfortunately some people have strong negative reactions to this and seem to feel entitled to run roughshod over women's sports and refuse to acknowledge any advantages. This again seems like madness to me, "2+2=5" stuff. It just seems like common sense to me that you shouldn't stop acknowledging how you were born even if you go to great lengths to alter your identity and presentation later on. And indeed many trans people do just that. I have much respect for those people. The Lia Thomases of the world, on the other hand...

People have judged you on this.  Hell brotha, even I judged you a little on this.  I really don't feel like doing that this morning.  So I'll just make a direct logical appeal to you.

You are thinking of this as a "2+2=5" bit when in reality it's more like a "not absolute 100%" issue.  We all know that biology isn't a clock that runs perfectly.  Some folks are born blind.  Some folks are born deaf.  Some folks are born with a idfk what to call it "brain issues"?  And some folks are born and live their entire lives like human personification of Greek Gods in marble.  The human body, much like everything else in existence, is not guaranteed to be what you expect it to be.  There are even some folks who are born with both male and female parts. . . . . . . . . how do they identify which gender they belong to?  And given that there are hermaphrodites, why in the world is something like transsexualism considered inconceivable?

[afleitch]

Ferguson. Closer to my views on the issue and closer to my views that it shouldn't be an obsession.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Dude, you posted an article meant to demonize trans women as sex pests. Don't push this "I'm respectful" crap.

If the mods (one of whom later admitted he fully agreed with everything I said) had allowed me to post my commentary along with that article and let it stand, you would see that is not at all what I was doing. If that's what you got from literally just a link to the article itself though, I don't know what to tell you. It's not what I for one got from it, intended to mean by posting it, or what I believe.

I think you misunderstood me.  I still think you’re a transphobic bigot.  I just happened to agree with the points you made in one post (and even there, you phrased your points in about the nastiest way possible).

“Dude, I don’t even disagree with the post in question, but you [Alben] really need to calm the f*** down” =/= me fully agreeing with everything you said.  Like, I agreed with the underlying substantive points you made in the post in question, but the wording you used did not reflect well on you at all.  For example, your use of terms like “girl dick” was pretty disgusting. 

[fhtagn]

Despite our very many differences on most issues, Alben is the only sane option on this.