Which user are you closer to on trans issues?

[VBM]

Easily Alben.

[jamestroll]

Just treat people with respect irrespective of your own knee jerk reaction views.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Just treat people with respect irrespective of your own knee jerk reaction views.

Neither of them do that.

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

They're really gonna make me vote for Ferguson97. How is the best-case scenario Ferguson97?

[Joe Republic]

What's wrong with Ferguson, especially on trans issues?

[the artist formerly known as catmusic]

What's wrong with Ferguson, especially on trans issues?

Obviously far too accepting of trans people and willing to defend them.

[Alben Barkley]

Just treat people with respect irrespective of your own knee jerk reaction views.

This is actually what I try to do. Not saying I'm perfect, but I try to be respectful.

It's not like I don't use people's preferred pronouns or treat them as their preferred gender, after all. It's just that it seemed to me in the past, when we had a much smaller trans population, people understood this was a legal fiction and social nicety. No one was claiming that they were LITERALLY the same thing as people born as the biological sex they preferred, as Ferguson has seemed to imply a few times (and I apologize if I am mischaracterizing his views, but it seems to me he believes sex can LITERALLY be changed or is somehow not rooted in biological reality, which is simply untrue). It's just THAT particular "2+2=5" stuff which really gets under my skin. Feels like people are telling me to not believe my own lying eyes. And THAT, no matter what "side" it is coming from or what the intentions behind it are, is the kind of thing that is going to get a "kneejerk" reaction of defiance out of me 100% of the time. I will play nice, I will go along with people's preferred pronouns and treat them as they wish to be treated, no problem. What I will not do is redefine reality or pretend that my senses are wrong or that there is such a thing as a "girldick" or whatever. A line simply has to be drawn somewhere.

But yes, the theoretical level is very different from the real world, where most anyone with a thread of decency and social awareness will treat people as they want to be treated regardless of personal views on the nature of sex and gender identity. I strongly disagree with and do not associate myself with TERFs and such who do not do this.

Now where this does get a little more complicated is matters like sports, where acknowledging biological realities becomes a necessity, and where it seems particularly mad to me to pretend otherwise. Doesn't mean you have to stop treating people with respect, it's just that we have to drop the pretense and legal fiction a little bit and gently remind people that they have unfair advantages for obvious biological reasons. Or at least, that's how it SHOULD be. Unfortunately some people have strong negative reactions to this and seem to feel entitled to run roughshod over women's sports and refuse to acknowledge any advantages. This again seems like madness to me, "2+2=5" stuff. It just seems like common sense to me that you shouldn't stop acknowledging how you were born even if you go to great lengths to alter your identity and presentation later on. And indeed many trans people do just that. I have much respect for those people. The Lia Thomases of the world, on the other hand...

[OSR stands with Israel]

Alben

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

What's wrong with Ferguson, especially on trans issues?

Obviously far too accepting of trans people and willing to defend them.

Pretty much this. He's so accepting and willing to defend trans people that I almost feel as if he's a psyop designed to make transphobes look reasonable.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Just treat people with respect irrespective of your own knee jerk reaction views.

This is actually what I try to do. Not saying I'm perfect, but I try to be respectful.

It's not like I don't use people's preferred pronouns or treat them as their preferred gender, after all. It's just that it seemed to me in the past, when we had a much smaller trans population, people understood this was a legal fiction and social nicety. No one was claiming that they were LITERALLY the same thing as people born as the biological sex they preferred, as Ferguson has seemed to imply a few times (and I apologize if I am mischaracterizing his views, but it seems to me he believes sex can LITERALLY be changed or is somehow not rooted in biological reality, which is simply untrue). It's just THAT particular "2+2=5" stuff which really gets under my skin. Feels like people are telling me to not believe my own lying eyes. And THAT, no matter what "side" it is coming from or what the intentions behind it are, is the kind of thing that is going to get a "kneejerk" reaction of defiance out of me 100% of the time. I will play nice, I will go along with people's preferred pronouns and treat them as they wish to be treated, no problem. What I will not do is redefine reality or pretend that my senses are wrong or that there is such a thing as a "girldick" or whatever. A line simply has to be drawn somewhere.

But yes, the theoretical level is very different from the real world, where most anyone with a thread of decency and social awareness will treat people as they want to be treated regardless of personal views on the nature of sex and gender identity. I strongly disagree with and do not associate myself with TERFs and such who do not do this.

Now where this does get a little more complicated is matters like sports, where acknowledging biological realities becomes a necessity, and where it seems particularly mad to me to pretend otherwise. Doesn't mean you have to stop treating people with respect, it's just that we have to drop the pretense and legal fiction a little bit and gently remind people that they have unfair advantages for obvious biological reasons. Or at least, that's how it SHOULD be. Unfortunately some people have strong negative reactions to this and seem to feel entitled to run roughshod over women's sports and refuse to acknowledge any advantages. This again seems like madness to me, "2+2=5" stuff. It just seems like common sense to me that you shouldn't stop acknowledging how you were born even if you go to great lengths to alter your identity and presentation later on. And indeed many trans people do just that. I have much respect for those people. The Lia Thomases of the world, on the other hand...

Dude, you posted an article meant to demonize trans women as sex pests. Don't push this "I'm respectful" crap.

[VBM]

What's wrong with Ferguson, especially on trans issues?

Did you see his posts on the Lia Thomas issue?

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

What's wrong with Ferguson, especially on trans issues?

Obviously far too accepting of trans people and willing to defend them.

Pretty much this. He's so accepting and willing to defend trans people that I almost feel as if he's a psyop designed to make transphobes look reasonable.

I don't see it. He's not always the greatest debater, but at worse he's only as unreasonable as the people he debates on trans issues.

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

What's wrong with Ferguson, especially on trans issues?

Obviously far too accepting of trans people and willing to defend them.

Pretty much this. He's so accepting and willing to defend trans people that I almost feel as if he's a psyop designed to make transphobes look reasonable.

I don't see it. He's not always the greatest debater, but at worse he's only as unreasonable as the people he debates on trans issues.

To be honest, after watching last night's Quantum Leap, I kind of see the appeal of following the "dude trust her" rule of thumb rather than going with anything concrete, but I don't know, cis people are already pre-inclined to think that (cisgender) men are going to pretend to be women to beat them in sports if trans people are allowed to exist in peace (as stupid as that is), and he rarely does them any favors.

[T'Chenka]

I'm way closer to Ferguson than I am to Barkley

[With you in spirit]

I'd rather be too accepting of trans people than not at all accepting of them.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

I'm way closer to Ferguson than I am to Barkley

[Torie]

Am I the only one in the forum with the good sense not to vote in this poll? Sad! 

[Devout Centrist]

Closer to Ferguson. I know quite a few trans people in real life, and they’re good people I try to exercise restrain wherever possible. I’m not trans nor am I particularly animated by this debate.

Nevertheless I find it really irritating when I see the millionth ‘NONPASSING TRANS ‘WOMAN’ SEXUALLY SNEEZES ON EIGHT YEAR OLD AT PUBLIC POOL’ thread.

that there is such a thing as a "girldick" or whatever.

Girldick is real. And actually, 2+2=6.

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

Girldick is real.

I didn't bother reading any of Alben's essay, but as a bepeniled woman, this is objectively true. A trans woman's penis may still be a penis, but estrogen really does a number on the thing, and to claim otherwise is an affront to the Biological Reality™ he claims to uphold.

[VBM]

I'd rather be too accepting of trans people than not at all accepting of them.

Alben isn’t “not at all accepting”. He’s not some raging transphobe who wants all trans people to die. He believes that any adult has the right to choose their gender. The only disagreements he has with the trans community is that he believes children are too young to transition, and he acknowledges that sex and gender are different (which used to be what trans activists themselves preached).

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

I'd rather be too accepting of trans people than not at all accepting of them.

Alben [is] not some raging transphobe who wants all trans people to die.

Are you out of your mind? Even if you believe him when he says these things, he's way too obsessed with the issue. No wonder he views Good Old J.K. as a maternal figure; he inherited her obsession with the trannies.

[Hindsight was 2020]

I'd rather be too accepting of trans people than not at all accepting of them.

Alben [is] not some raging transphobe who wants all trans people to die.

Are you out of your mind? Even if you believe him when he says these things, he's way too obsessed with the issue. No wonder he views Good Old J.K. as a maternal figure; he inherited her obsession with the trannies.

This 1000%. This really gets to my annoyance with Alben (and JK). It’d be one thing if they like 1 time said something anti trans and got hounded for it but both of them can’t shut the f**k up about it. JK tweets about trans stuff 24/7 and practically every train wreck thread that dealt with trans issues Alben was either the OP and said something awful or 1 of the first posters to stir sh*t on it

[Sirius_]

I'd rather be too accepting of trans people than not at all accepting of them.

Alben isn’t “not at all accepting”. He’s not some raging transphobe who wants all trans people to die. He believes that any adult has the right to choose their gender. The only disagreements he has with the trans community is that he believes children are too young to transition, and he acknowledges that sex and gender are different (which used to be what trans activists themselves preached).

To acknowledge that sex and gender are different doesn't mean much if you always think that people should be categorized by sex and never by gender.

[John Dule]

I'd rather be too accepting of trans people than not at all accepting of them.

Alben isn’t “not at all accepting”. He’s not some raging transphobe who wants all trans people to die. He believes that any adult has the right to choose their gender. The only disagreements he has with the trans community is that he believes children are too young to transition, and he acknowledges that sex and gender are different (which used to be what trans activists themselves preached).

To acknowledge that sex and gender are different doesn't mean much if you always think that people should be categorized by sex and never by gender.

... Or conversely, if you always think that people should always be categorized by gender and never sex.

[Mr. Reactionary]

I'd rather be too accepting of trans people than not at all accepting of them.

Alben isn’t “not at all accepting”. He’s not some raging transphobe who wants all trans people to die. He believes that any adult has the right to choose their gender. The only disagreements he has with the trans community is that he believes children are too young to transition, and he acknowledges that sex and gender are different (which used to be what trans activists themselves preached).

To acknowledge that sex and gender are different doesn't mean much if you always think that people should be categorized by sex and never by gender.

... Or conversely, if you always think that people should always be categorized by gender and never sex.

Its always seemed strange to me that the activists claim youth sports were intended to be based on gender and not sex. Like clearly its about physicality not about self-expression. Most distinctions are clearly based on physicality and not self-expression but because the activists unilaterally decided to bifurcate sex and gender like 15 years ago without a vote they keep trying to play gotcha as though 40 year old laws assumed queer theory when ratified. Thats why it probably just makes sense to use male and female for everything now instead of man and woman since the activists will keep playing dumb to try and get what they want.