Transgender woman charged with indecent exposure over Ohio YMCA incident

[Attorney General & LGC Deputy Dwarven Dragon]

Why does this need to be a thread?

I do think the sports issue is a valid question, but the locker room thing itself is pathetic. If you're going into a locker room, you should expect to see people Naked. It's how it works, and this shaming of the human body is one of the silliest parts of Millennial and Gen Z views (or their overreactive parents, hard to tell which). My college gym locker room had communal pole showers, I used them (naked) and so did plenty of other people. Nothing bad happened. People are in a locker room to change, use the steam room or sauna, shower, and maybe do a quick shave or hair style. They aren't in there for a sexual event. Nudity isn't sexual at all if you don't allow it to be, it's just the natural form of the human body.

TBF, I have not seen a pre-OP female to male trans in a locker room before, but if I ever did, I could deal with it. Just don't be right next to them, and don't start staring at them. Pretty simple.

Oh, and if there is actual rape going on, rape is already a crime. Regardless of the genders of the parties involved. People seem to forget that. However, "AHH!! I saw X!" is not rape.

[T'Chenka]

Putting aside whether or not I am biased, assuming that both parties are equally hypocritical isn't really a logical assumption to make. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. The way to find out is to examine the evidence.

Laudable ideal. However, some things cannot fit into this paradigm. In practice, subjective political views heavily influence what is seen as logical or not.
The scientific method, at least in its pure form, cannot be applied to politics.

Over the last 5 years, Nancy Pelosi took these positions on these issues and flip-flopped when it was politically advantageous to do so X number of times.

Over the last 5 years, Ted Cruz took these positions on these issues and flip-flopped when it was politically advantageous to do so Y number of times.

For the most part, that's fairly measurable and the data is easy enough to analyse.

Is that PERFECTLY measurable? No. Is it generally measurable? Yes.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Putting aside whether or not I am biased, assuming that both parties are equally hypocritical isn't really a logical assumption to make. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. The way to find out is to examine the evidence.

Laudable ideal. However, some things cannot fit into this paradigm. In practice, subjective political views heavily influence what is seen as logical or not.
The scientific method, at least in its pure form, cannot be applied to politics.

Over the last 5 years, Nancy Pelosi took these positions on these issues and flip-flopped when it was politically advantageous to do so X number of times.

Over the last 5 years, Ted Cruz took these positions on these issues and flip-flopped when it was politically advantageous to do so Y number of times.

For the most part, that's fairly measurable and the data is easy enough to analyse.

Is that PERFECTLY measurable? No. Is it generally measurable? Yes.

Sticking with "You must keep to one standard rule regardless of what one party controls or doesn't" is only non-hypocritical if one's subjective political views hold that as part-and-parcel for what is fair. And I'm someone who generally agrees this is a good framework to follow for institutionalist reasons.

Neither bad nor consistent are terms synonymous with political hypocrisy (of the bad sort, however that is defined), nor should we generally want to have politicians who treat their politics or ideological views as being as authoritative as a Bible. Politics is not some kind of consistent science for which we can reliably figure out the best outcome by some kind of scientific method. And when people claim something to this effect is true, it is usually to prop up some subjective belief of theirs to try to hold it up as "scientific".

I'm not objective, you aren't, nobody is.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

 the New York Post for deadnaming this women in the literal second sentence. Disgusting mean spirited bullies

[BlueSwan]

Why does this need to be a thread?

I do think the sports issue is a valid question, but the locker room thing itself is pathetic. If you're going into a locker room, you should expect to see people Naked. It's how it works, and this shaming of the human body is one of the silliest parts of Millennial and Gen Z views (or their overreactive parents, hard to tell which). My college gym locker room had communal pole showers, I used them (naked) and so did plenty of other people. Nothing bad happened. People are in a locker room to change, use the steam room or sauna, shower, and maybe do a quick shave or hair style. They aren't in there for a sexual event. Nudity isn't sexual at all if you don't allow it to be, it's just the natural form of the human body.

TBF, I have not seen a pre-OP female to male trans in a locker room before, but if I ever did, I could deal with it. Just don't be right next to them, and don't start staring at them. Pretty simple.

Oh, and if there is actual rape going on, rape is already a crime. Regardless of the genders of the parties involved. People seem to forget that. However, "AHH!! I saw X!" is not rape.

x10

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Since apparently I need to make this clear; since two people have now made this accusation including a mod and a poster who deleted their post after, I don't believe anyone here is condoning intentionally exposing yourself to others who haven't consented to that. That is very clearly wrong, should (and is) criminal and if that turns out to be the case here then I will be the first person to say that the offender deserves criminal sanctions.

However as a gay man with many transgender friends I am indeed sensitive to the fact(s) that 1.) People who dislike Trans people simply for being who they are will indeed make-up accusations against them 2.) Will attempt to use the misdeeds of one person to extrapolate the guilt for those actions to all Trans people or make this out to be an inherent 'danger' that Trans people in some way present to others, which is of course ludicrous. Alben's initial post contained a screed with these undertones, which is also what has many people upset here other than just the article itself.

And yes, as others have pointed out, there are shady aspects to this story that don't make 1. impossible, although it appears we'll need to wait for more information to come out.

I still maintain that the media sensationalization of this story is due largely to the Trans panic narrative the right is pushing right now and that it's completely unwarranted. All indications are that, at worst, this was a Transgender person who was following YMCA guidelines and changing while someone who didn't want to saw them while many people here are making this out to be sexual assault or worse.

And if that turns out to be the case, then you can criticize YMCA policy and you can even call on them to change it. Maybe offer private changing areas as well. But the accusations, tenor of the conversation and sensationalization are definitely uncalled for.

[AtorBoltox]

Based on what he believes at the moment I'd say no, but he's radicalizing quite quickly so who knows where he'll be in 2024

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

If a straight cis male went into the women's locker room, people would rightfully be mad (myself included).

But if a transgender woman (who is statistically lesbian) goes in, nobody says a word, despite the factors that make a straight cis man's reasons for being there concerning still being present.

[Joe Republic]

If a straight cis male went into the women's locker room, people would rightfully be mad (myself included).

But if a transgender woman (who is statistically lesbian) goes in, nobody says a word, despite the factors that make a straight cis man's reasons for being there concerning still being present.

Why include this caveat?  You know cisgender lesbians already use womens' locker rooms without causing a national crisis?

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

If a straight cis male went into the women's locker room, people would rightfully be mad (myself included).

But if a transgender woman (who is statistically lesbian) goes in, nobody says a word, despite the factors that make a straight cis man's reasons for being there concerning still being present.

Oh we have a double! Transphobic and Homophobic in one! And the calling trans women men and lesbians to boot! What a comment!

[Attorney General & LGC Deputy Dwarven Dragon]

If a straight cis male went into the women's locker room, people would rightfully be mad (myself included).

But if a transgender woman (who is statistically lesbian) goes in, nobody says a word, despite the factors that make a straight cis man's reasons for being there concerning still being present.

If someone proclaiming to be a man walks into a room for women, yes that does create concern. But that's not what occurred here.

The gendered nature of locker rooms is more a result of tradition than necessity. If there is criminal action going on we already have laws against that. Being naked in a locker room is not a crime, nor should it be disturbing on its own, regardless of the genders of the nude person and anyone observing them.

[Devout Centrist]

If a straight cis male went into the women's locker room, people would rightfully be mad (myself included).

But if a transgender woman (who is statistically lesbian) goes in, nobody says a word, despite the factors that make a straight cis man's reasons for being there concerning still being present.

Why? What’s the reason?

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

If a straight cis male went into the women's locker room, people would rightfully be mad (myself included).

But if a transgender woman (who is statistically lesbian) goes in, nobody says a word, despite the factors that make a straight cis man's reasons for being there concerning still being present.

Oh we have a double! Transphobic and Homophobic in one! And the calling trans women men and lesbians to boot! What a comment!

That's literally impossible.

If a straight cis male went into the women's locker room, people would rightfully be mad (myself included).

But if a transgender woman (who is statistically lesbian) goes in, nobody says a word, despite the factors that make a straight cis man's reasons for being there concerning still being present.

Why include this caveat?  You know cisgender lesbians already use womens' locker rooms without causing a national crisis?

A pre-op trans women who would be a heterosexual man if they weren't trans is the same as a heterosexual man being in a women's locker room.

[Devout Centrist]

A pre-op trans women who would be a heterosexual man if they weren't trans is the same as a heterosexual man being in a women's locker room.

No? They’re transgender.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

A pre-op trans women who would be a heterosexual man if they weren't trans is the same as a heterosexual man being in a women's locker room.

No? They’re transgender.

How does that change anything?

[Joe Republic]

If a straight cis male went into the women's locker room, people would rightfully be mad (myself included).

But if a transgender woman (who is statistically lesbian) goes in, nobody says a word, despite the factors that make a straight cis man's reasons for being there concerning still being present.

Why include this caveat?  You know cisgender lesbians already use womens' locker rooms without causing a national crisis?

A pre-op trans women who would be a heterosexual man if they weren't trans is the same as a heterosexual man being in a women's locker room.

No, that's not necessarily true at all.  Many trans women can pass almost flawlessly as a woman and yet still be pre-op (with all being revealed only if seen completely nude).  Gender transition is not some black/white, two-step process from presenting as biological sex to suddenly passing as their new gender identity.

[Devout Centrist]

How does that change anything?

People who transition typically present as their preferred gender. This means wearing clothing of their preferred gender, taking hormones such as estrogen as part of a clinical process to transition, altering their vocal range, and much more.

Cisgender men like me don’t do this.

[Ferguson97]

There’s no argument against allowing trans people to go into the locker rooms matching their gender identity that wouldn’t logically extend to cis gay people. It’s a ludicrous line of thinking.

[Horus]

statistically lesbian

Sounds like a Riot grrrl band

[afleitch]

There’s no argument against allowing trans people to go into the locker rooms matching their gender identity that wouldn’t logically extend to cis gay people. It’s a ludicrous line of thinking.

Correct. If it's about reducing the likelihood of assumed 'predatory' behaviour and not about genitals, then lesbian and bisexual women should also be excluded from changing with straight women.

If it's about genitals, then the only fair way is rather than to assume how someone presents themselves, or accept them calling themselves 'she', is to check genitals prior to allowing women into changing rooms.

[DaleCooper]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

[Sirius_]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

[ingemann]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

If they’re not, those TERFs can get some death and rape threats until they learn to keep their mouths shut. /s

[DaleCooper]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

If a straight cis male went into the women's locker room, people would rightfully be mad (myself included).

But if a transgender woman (who is statistically lesbian) goes in, nobody says a word, despite the factors that make a straight cis man's reasons for being there concerning still being present.

Oh we have a double! Transphobic and Homophobic in one! And the calling trans women men and lesbians to boot! What a comment!

That's literally impossible.

Lol what does that even mean. You can be homophobic and transphobic, and if you’re an lgbT this can still be true. You can be gay and homophobic towards other gays.