When Students Change Gender Identity, and Parents Don’t Know

[Torie]

When Students Change Gender Identity, and Parents Don’t Know

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/us/gender-identity-students-parents.html

Here are the facts:

1. A 15 year old High School Student in CA decided to transition to male in HS.

2. The HS allowed the student to change to a more male sounding name, use the male bathroom, and referred to him by male pronouns. The HS did not facilitate medical treatments.

3. The student informed the HS that he tried to come out to his parents before, but they didn’t take it seriously, so he asked for the HS’s support in not informing his parents. The HS honored the student’s request.

4. The mother found out glancing at the student’s homework assignment with an unfamiliar name scrawled at the top.

5. “The Bradshaws accepted their teenager’s new gender identity, but not without trepidation, especially after he asked for hormones and surgery to remove his breasts. Doctors had previously diagnosed him as being on the autism spectrum, as well as with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, PTSD and anxiety. He had struggled with loneliness during the pandemic, and, to his parents, seemed not to know exactly who he was yet, because he had repeatedly changed his name and sexual orientation.

‘Given those complexities, Mrs. Bradshaw said she resented the fact that the school had made her feel like a bad parent for wondering whether educators had put her teenager, a minor, on a path the school wasn’t qualified to oversee.”



Based on these facts, and assuming the student’s performance and well being at HS was not deteriorating, and although not necessary for me to form my opinion, but nevertheless supportive thereof, given that the student made an attempt to reach out to his parents, but they seemed as if they would rather not grapple with the issue, I “rule” in favor of the HS here. In my view the case is not a particularly a close one.  I hold that opinion while feeling absolutely no need to be PC on this issue, and do not consider mistakes in gender references to be an execrable thought crime.

I in general avoid getting into trans discussions, as I so informed my colleagues in the Cave, given the lay of the land here. But I think posters here would be interested in this article behind a paywall, so I thought I would share it, despite my trepidation.

Since I generated the OP here, I can lock the thread, and will do so the moment there is any personal attack or unkind remark, directed at either a poster or anyone else, and will not hesitate after locking to report any post that I consider inappropriate. Typically, I do not report posts unless really outrageous, and then typically someone has beaten me to it. But I will here. I am taking personal responsibility for this thread, and will not tolerate it being soiled.

The idea is to discuss how HS policy on this issue should be fashioned, and what are the competing considerations and when. In that regard, to start off the discussion with an on the other hand, I don’t think a HS should facilitate medical treatments behind the parents’ back, assuming that is at all possible, absent the most compelling and unusual of circumstances.

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

[Del Tachi]

There have been a few threads about this topic before.

Adults who keep secrets for children are doing real harm to families and putting kids in very precarious and unsupported positions.  There is a significant difference between a conversation that is held in confidence between a school employee and a student, and an open secret kept by the school staff and the entire school community.  The latter is humiliating for parents and damaging to a family's well-being. 

The article says that the parents were accepting of their teen's gender identity, so I don't see any rationale for the school to be keeping secrets from them.  The best way schools should deal with these cases is by making the same type of accommodations they would for any cisgender student who wants to assume a different identity (i.e., allowing some level of discretion for students to use a preferred name, pronouns, etc. on an individual basis) but refuse to make or enforce any changes to a student's official record without the consent of the parents. 

It is inappropriate for schools to act against parents' wishes unless there are serious concerns about the fitness of the parents and, when those cases arise, concerns should be addressed through formal channels such as contacting social services.   

[Alben Barkley]

You’re telling me a trans-identifying female teenager seems to have a confused sense of identity that’s constantly in flux (especially related to issues of sex), is autistic and has an array of other mental health problems exacerbated by the pandemic and other external factors, and basically seems to be a textbook case of rapid onset gender dysphoria???

I am shocked. SHOCKED!

This kid is almost certainly NOT really trans and certainly should NOT be allowed to mutilate her body by cutting her breasts off and going on dangerous hormones. Certainly not while underage. And certainly the parents, who know the kid better than the school, should not be kept in the dark about everything as she slips farther away from them and her old identity (something she might very well come to regret) and is living a double life. Especially since it does not seem like the parents are abusive or unaccepting at all.

This is one issue where I am 100% on the “conservative” side, and indeed the more I read about it the more entrenched I become in that position. I just don’t even see how it became a “conservative” position when it just seems like plain common sense to me. Like how can anyone possibly read about this kid and think “Yeah, clearly what’s really going on is the kid is just a man born in a female body, nothing else to see here!” Utterly insane.

[7,052,770]

Adults who keep secrets for children are doing real harm to families and putting kids in very precarious and unsupported positions.  There is a significant difference between a conversation that is held in confidence between a school employee and a student, and an open secret kept by the school staff and the entire school community.  The latter is humiliating for parents and damaging to a family's well-being. 

The article says that the parents were accepting of their teen's gender identity, so I don't see any rationale for the school to be keeping secrets from them.  The best way schools should deal with these cases is by making the same type of accommodations they would for any cisgender student who wants to assume a different identity (i.e., allowing some level of discretion for students to use a preferred name, pronouns, etc. on an individual basis) but refuse to make or enforce any changes to a student's official record without the consent of the parents. 

It is inappropriate for schools to act against parents' wishes unless there are serious concerns about the fitness of the parents and, when those cases arise, concerns should be addressed through formal channels such as contacting social services.   

I can get behind this post. I suspect the school administration just didn't really know what to do in this situation and it spiraled out of control. I also suspect the student exaggerated how anti-trans his parents are (maybe intentionally, maybe not), which impacted the school's decision.

There should be detailed national guidelines for these situations that schools follow rather than just letting every school wing it.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

There have been a few threads about this topic before.

Adults who keep secrets for children are doing real harm to families and putting kids in very precarious and unsupported positions.  There is a significant difference between a conversation that is held in confidence between a school employee and a student, and an open secret kept by the school staff and the entire school community.  The latter is humiliating for parents and damaging to a family's well-being. 

The article says that the parents were accepting of their teen's gender identity, so I don't see any rationale for the school to be keeping secrets from them.  The best way schools should deal with these cases is by making the same type of accommodations they would for any cisgender student who wants to assume a different identity (i.e., allowing some level of discretion for students to use a preferred name, pronouns, etc. on an individual basis) but refuse to make or enforce any changes to a student's official record without the consent of the parents. 

It is inappropriate for schools to act against parents' wishes unless there are serious concerns about the fitness of the parents and, when those cases arise, concerns should be addressed through formal channels such as contacting social services.   

This. For this situation.

[Torie]

The mods (the bulk of them), don't like someone deliberately using the gender pronoun that the individual being referred to no longer deems appropriate. The NYT itself was careful to use "he." I will leave it at that.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

This really depends on how much you believe teens should have any level of autonomy. Clearly it would be out of line if the school was facilitating a full transition without parental consent, but this doesn't seem to be what happened.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I will say its definitely bad but not as outrageous as when this happens in Elementary or Middle School.

[afleitch]

This really depends on how much you believe teens should have any level of autonomy. Clearly it would be out of line if the school was facilitating a full transition without parental consent, but this doesn't seem to be what happened.

Exactly. School should be a safe place for gay students to be themselves with their friends, even if their parents are homophobic. The idea that they shouldn't have that space or that privacy from their parents, or should be 'snitched' on by the education authorities, at high school is autocratic. The same goes for any student who wants some element of social transition.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

Outing students can be incredibly dangerous to their mental and physical health. Schools should absolutely not reveal a kids gender identity or sexuality or anything that could be dangerous to a kid.

Hell growing up in the south I knew kids who would have been in a decent amount of trouble just for dating a different race if the school told on them to their parents. People can be downright hateful towards their kids

[Joe Republic]

This is one issue where I am 100% on the “conservative” side, and indeed the more I read about it the more entrenched I become in that position.

We know, and it's sad to see.  You're even more reactionary on this than several (possibly even most?) blue avatars around here.

I don't know what interactions you've had IRL with trans people, if any, but I hope at some point you'll get to do so and spend most of the conversation just being quiet and listening.

[OSR stands with Israel]

This is one issue where I am 100% on the “conservative” side, and indeed the more I read about it the more entrenched I become in that position.

We know, and it's sad to see.  You're even more reactionary on this than several (possibly even most?) blue avatars around here.

I don't know what interactions you've had IRL with trans people, if any, but I hope at some point you'll get to do so and spend most of the conversation just being quiet and listening.

Quiet? Listening? That's the guy who wants to pump kids full of medication so they are quiet and he can get through his day as a teacher more lazily.

That’s Pres Mike not Alben . Stop accusing posters for having views that other posters have and if your not sure who has that view , then don’t make that accusation

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

What’s the problem with it? As others have analogized, I don’t think there’s a difference between telling a kid’s parents that they’re trans and telling them the kid is gay. I think either one of those options could expose the kid to significant risk of abuse. A friend of mine was kicked out of the house by his parents for being gay when he was in high school. I’m sure there are many more people my age, and current school-aged children, who have similar experiences around being trans. People for whom it is not safe for their parents to know their sexual or gender identity.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

What is the upside, in terms of the child’s welfare, of being outed to their parents? If their parents are accepting, then they can come out on their own terms. If they’re not, they’d be put in danger.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

What’s the problem with it? As others have analogized, I don’t think there’s a difference between telling a kid’s parents that they’re trans and telling them the kid is gay. I think either one of those options could expose the kid to significant risk of abuse. A friend of mine was kicked out of the house by his parents for being gay when he was in high school. I’m sure there are many more people my age, and current school-aged children, who have similar experiences around being trans. People for whom it is not safe for their parents to know their sexual or gender identity.

There is one major difference and that being gay does not lead to a major medical procedure so making this comparison is beyond dumb. Parents should know if their kids are identifying as a different gender given the fact that it leads to major medical procedures.

I would be willing to make this compromise though:

Schools just have to get permission from parents if they want to use a different pronoun or before helping out with any sort of gender care

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

What’s the problem with it? As others have analogized, I don’t think there’s a difference between telling a kid’s parents that they’re trans and telling them the kid is gay. I think either one of those options could expose the kid to significant risk of abuse. A friend of mine was kicked out of the house by his parents for being gay when he was in high school. I’m sure there are many more people my age, and current school-aged children, who have similar experiences around being trans. People for whom it is not safe for their parents to know their sexual or gender identity.

There is one major difference and that being gay does not lead to a major medical procedure so making this comparison is beyond dumb. Parents should know if their kids are identifying as a different gender given the fact that it leads to major medical procedures.

I would be willing to make this compromise though:

Schools just have to get permission from parents if they want to use a different pronoun or before helping out with any sort of gender care

What schools are putting kids on HRT? I’ve never heard of that happening.

[7,052,770]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

What’s the problem with it? As others have analogized, I don’t think there’s a difference between telling a kid’s parents that they’re trans and telling them the kid is gay. I think either one of those options could expose the kid to significant risk of abuse. A friend of mine was kicked out of the house by his parents for being gay when he was in high school. I’m sure there are many more people my age, and current school-aged children, who have similar experiences around being trans. People for whom it is not safe for their parents to know their sexual or gender identity.

There is one major difference and that being gay does not lead to a major medical procedure so making this comparison is beyond dumb. Parents should know if their kids are identifying as a different gender given the fact that it leads to major medical procedures.

I would be willing to make this compromise though:

Schools just have to get permission from parents if they want to use a different pronoun or before helping out with any sort of gender care

Elementary/middle school, obviously. After that, probably not, although I don't think students should be living a complete double life without parents' knowledge. I suspect that any of these cases are incredibly rare though, nowhere near as common as parents supporting a transition but schools not allowing it.

[MaxQue]

Schools must take decisions that benefits the student, not the parent. What that means in this specific case, I don't know. It's a complicated issue.

What I do know, however, is that the conservative view that kids are an object belonging to their parents is morally wrong.

[Torie]

It is not my forte, but using the boy's room, a male name, and a male pronoun, does not in and of itself to me to be crossing some Rubicon from which there is no return. It could be more in the nature of a test run anyway. In any event, I just don't see it as some huge deal, one way or the other. Granted, the kid may have other more serious issues, which perhaps the mother would be better off directing her attention to in the way of giving help and support.

As Ray noted, there is a continuum here as to when parental "rights" slowly wane, and the autonomy and privacy of the child slowly waxes, involving judgement calls. And sure, maybe the child will make some wrong turns, or not. That is part of growing up.

All of this contretemps is light years away from irreversible medical procedures as I see it.

The above comments do not seem to me to qualify myself as being a "militant trans activist," but whatever. It can be a strange world out there.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

You’re telling me a trans-identifying female teenager seems to have a confused sense of identity that’s constantly in flux (especially related to issues of sex), is autistic and has an array of other mental health problems exacerbated by the pandemic and other external factors, and basically seems to be a textbook case of rapid onset gender dysphoria???

I am shocked. SHOCKED!

This kid is almost certainly NOT really trans and certainly should NOT be allowed to mutilate her body by cutting her breasts off and going on dangerous hormones. Certainly not while underage. And certainly the parents, who know the kid better than the school, should not be kept in the dark about everything as she slips farther away from them and her old identity (something she might very well come to regret) and is living a double life. Especially since it does not seem like the parents are abusive or unaccepting at all.

This is one issue where I am 100% on the “conservative” side, and indeed the more I read about it the more entrenched I become in that position. I just don’t even see how it became a “conservative” position when it just seems like plain common sense to me. Like how can anyone possibly read about this kid and think “Yeah, clearly what’s really going on is the kid is just a man born in a female body, nothing else to see here!” Utterly insane.

First of all, "Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria" is as real as the unicorn who visits me every tuesday to give me boxing lessons. Secondly, the "seems to be confused about his identity" came from the parents. Parents can often be uncomfortable about their kids being trans (my dad definitely was) and often have a biased and distorted picture of things. The parents refused to acknowledge his identity until they had to. This kid has been presenting as male for a while now presumably; and he's now pushing for going further with transition. And of course, having autism or mental illnesses does not magically mean someone is incapable of identifying their gender. Being uncertain and constantly changing your identified sexual orientation doesn't mean much about your gender identity. His gender identity has been pretty consistent.

Ironically in my experience most identity confusion tends to come from misidentifying dysphoria as something else(For example, sometimes I would "feel like a man" because of dysphoria, which always felt terrible and s**ty, but I usually thought this was a sign of me being a man because it didn't quite click that "feeling like a man" always causing me to feel like s**t is a sign that I'd be happier not being a man. This happened a ways into transitioning, and I went close to detransition once. After shifting masculine a bit for a day or two I went back quickly because it felt really f**king bad to be more masculine. The big sign that I was definitely trans was the increasing happiness I felt at becoming more and more feminine. If you heard about me at age 14, you would have believed the same thing about me you believe about this boy.

In general, you seem uncomfortable with transness to me. Maybe it would be helpful for us to have a chat over voice chat of some sort, to get an understanding of being trans on the human level?

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

What’s the problem with it? As others have analogized, I don’t think there’s a difference between telling a kid’s parents that they’re trans and telling them the kid is gay. I think either one of those options could expose the kid to significant risk of abuse. A friend of mine was kicked out of the house by his parents for being gay when he was in high school. I’m sure there are many more people my age, and current school-aged children, who have similar experiences around being trans. People for whom it is not safe for their parents to know their sexual or gender identity.

Because being gay or bi or whatever just means you are gay or bi. The school here made the parents feel like bad parents because they didn't put their child on puberty blockers.

[Dr. MB]

There's a weird obsession from a lot of people about micromanaging the lives of teenagers. "Concerned parents" are the enemy of a free society.

[Burke Bro]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

What’s the problem with it? As others have analogized, I don’t think there’s a difference between telling a kid’s parents that they’re trans and telling them the kid is gay. I think either one of those options could expose the kid to significant risk of abuse. A friend of mine was kicked out of the house by his parents for being gay when he was in high school. I’m sure there are many more people my age, and current school-aged children, who have similar experiences around being trans. People for whom it is not safe for their parents to know their sexual or gender identity.

There is one major difference and that being gay does not lead to a major medical procedure so making this comparison is beyond dumb. Parents should know if their kids are identifying as a different gender given the fact that it leads to major medical procedures.

I would be willing to make this compromise though:

Schools just have to get permission from parents if they want to use a different pronoun or before helping out with any sort of gender care

What schools are putting kids on HRT? I’ve never heard of that happening.

The school isn’t putting the child on HRT, but by calling the child by their new name name and allowing them to use the men’s restroom, they’re making the situation worse. It’s really a sad situation and I understand your point about there being a danger to outing a child as transgender to their parents. But things would have never gotten to this point had transgender activists not manipulated this confused and vulnerable child to begin with.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

This is one issue where I am 100% on the “conservative” side, and indeed the more I read about it the more entrenched I become in that position.

We know, and it's sad to see.  You're even more reactionary on this than several (possibly even most?) blue avatars around here.

I don't know what interactions you've had IRL with trans people, if any, but I hope at some point you'll get to do so and spend most of the conversation just being quiet and listening.

The thing is that the student in question probably wasn't trans. That's the real issue here.