DeSantis warns NHL to Remove ‘Discriminatory Prohibitions’ from Minority-Only Hockey Summit

[Horus]

There are about 1,000 better ways to do this than hosting segregated hiring events. Put up ads in minority neighborhoods. Promote hockey in mostly non white schools. Countless ways to increase minority interest in hockey without promoting segregation.

The NHL does those things.

That's terrible. Are you okay with that?

And there may not be an "underlying legal structure" but it is still segregation all the same. It might be more socially acceptable and far less evil than Jim Crow but it is still built on the exclusion of other races. That is segregation, by definition. Whether you wish it was not.

Human beings are tribalistic. Most humans tend to prefer to socialize and be around people who are similar to us. Most humans self-segregate everyday (not just based on race but plenty of other factors).

There's nothing wrong with that. Segregation only becomes wrong when it is legally mandated and if people are actively hostile towards others who are members of a different group.

But skin color is no more a part of a person's personality than eye or hair color. I don't see blue eyed people or red haired people forming cliques.

I'm glad you have admitted that you're okay with segregation though. Progress! So you do support white only clubs then, right?

[ηєω ƒяσηтιєя]

But skin color is no more a part of a person's personality than eye or hair color. I don't see blue eyed people or red haired people forming cliques.

I'm glad you have admitted that you're okay with segregation though. Progress! So you do support white only clubs then, right?

I don't "support" segregation. Segregation just happens naturally. Self-segregation is different from legal segregation (which I do not support).

Political parties are technically a form of segregation. Should political parties be abolished? Even if they are abolished, people are still going to sort/segregate themselves based on political ideology.

[Horus]

But skin color is no more a part of a person's personality than eye or hair color. I don't see blue eyed people or red haired people forming cliques.

I'm glad you have admitted that you're okay with segregation though. Progress! So you do support white only clubs then, right?

I don't "support" segregation. Segregation just happens naturally. Self-segregation is different from legal segregation (which I do not support).

Political parties are technically a form of segregation. Should political parties be abolished? Even if they are abolished, people are still going to sort/segregate themselves based on political ideology.

No, because those are divides based on opinions, not on physical traits we have no control over.

If a whites only business opened down the street from you, would you be okay with that? You seemed to be subtly defending the existence of white only country clubs, so I'm curious. After all, self segregation is "natural" in your eyes.

Personally, I don't limit myself to people who look like me or even those who have the same opinions as me. That would be boring, derivative and intellectually uninspiring. As a society we should not double down on a "self segregation based on immutable traits is normal" mentality.

[7,052,770]

If a whites only business opened down the street from you, would you be okay with that?

No, nobody on this forum would be, not even the Republicans. This isn't the same thing as that.

[Horus]

If a whites only business opened down the street from you, would you be okay with that?

No, nobody on this forum would be, not even the Republicans. This isn't the same thing as that.

But per NF self segregation is "normal" and "natural." Wouldn't businesses that cater to a specific affinity group be okay within that pov?

[ηєω ƒяσηтιєя]

No, because those are divides based on opinions, not on physical traits we have no control over.

Irrelevant. People segregate themselves based on various factors - those factors don't have be controllable or not.

If a whites only business opened down the street from you, would you be okay with that? You seemed to be subtly defending the existence of white only country clubs, so I'm curious. After all, self segregation is "natural" in your eyes.

A whites only business would most likely mean that legal/de jure segregation is in effect - which I have said from the beginning is wrong. I don't know what's so hard to understand.

Personally, I don't limit myself to people who look like me or even those who have the same opinions as me. That would be boring, derivative and intellectually uninspiring. As a society we should not double down on a "self segregation based on immutable traits is normal" mentality.

That's fine and there's nothing wrong with that. That's just your own individual feelings though.

[Horus]

If a whites only business opened down the street from you, would you be okay with that? You seemed to be subtly defending the existence of white only country clubs, so I'm curious. After all, self segregation is "natural" in your eyes.

A whites only business would most likely mean that legal/de jure segregation is in effect - which I have said from the beginning is wrong. I don't know what's so hard to understand.

So why wouldn't this view apply to a white only country club? All I'm getting from this is that you're okay with segregation under the "right" circumstances, within the "right" business or if the "right" groups get to partake.

[ηєω ƒяσηтιєя]

So why wouldn't this view apply to a white only country club? All I'm getting from this is that you're okay with segregation under the "right" circumstances, within the "right" business or if the "right" groups get to partake.

Country clubs are private. Also, country clubs are social gatherings. Not everyone has to be included in a social gathering.

Of course, in many cases, a whites-only country club is for racist reasons. But ultimately, nothing can be done about it.

[Vice President Christian Man]

Racism and discrimination cannot be solved if certain people are not involved or included. I don't agree with DeSantis on everything, but he made the right move here.

[Badger]

If it's that big of a problem just have a hiring fair for everyone and don't hire most of the white guys.

So... you support affirmative action now?

Not really, but my point is the NHL could still accomplish their goal of diversifying the league without holding segregated events.

How? Yet again I ask how they can get more minority applicants and hires without specifically reaching out to them? It's not like they were actively and intentionally excluding them in recent years, so the status quo wasn't working. Black applicants were already welcome, but "just encourage everyone to apply!" wasn't enough to actually get them.

Then maybe not very many minorities are interested in hockey.

Except they are. Canada has a rapidly growing visible minority population, many from Commonwealth nations. And those kids want to play hockey. But it's not easy breaking into an historically lily white sport. Ergo conferences like this.

[The Free North]

If it's that big of a problem just have a hiring fair for everyone and don't hire most of the white guys.

So... you support affirmative action now?

Not really, but my point is the NHL could still accomplish their goal of diversifying the league without holding segregated events.

How? Yet again I ask how they can get more minority applicants and hires without specifically reaching out to them? It's not like they were actively and intentionally excluding them in recent years, so the status quo wasn't working. Black applicants were already welcome, but "just encourage everyone to apply!" wasn't enough to actually get them.

Then maybe not very many minorities are interested in hockey.

Except they are. Canada has a rapidly growing visible minority population, many from Commonwealth nations. And those kids want to play hockey. But it's not easy breaking into an historically lily white sport. Ergo conferences like this.

Lol what?

1) Show up to a rink
2) Learn to skate/play
3) Join a team

Now, the price of playing hockey is astronomical, but thats a socio-economic issue. If a kid is good, no one is going to give 2 s about what he looks like, just like in any other sport. Are kids bullied for all sorts of reasons? Sure, kids are cruel. But is a coach going to racially profile his peewee team? Not a shot. This isn't 1940. When you catch up to the 21st century, give us a ping.

[Badger]

If it's that big of a problem just have a hiring fair for everyone and don't hire most of the white guys.

So... you support affirmative action now?

Not really, but my point is the NHL could still accomplish their goal of diversifying the league without holding segregated events.

How? Yet again I ask how they can get more minority applicants and hires without specifically reaching out to them? It's not like they were actively and intentionally excluding them in recent years, so the status quo wasn't working. Black applicants were already welcome, but "just encourage everyone to apply!" wasn't enough to actually get them.

Then maybe not very many minorities are interested in hockey.

Except they are. Canada has a rapidly growing visible minority population, many from Commonwealth nations. And those kids want to play hockey. But it's not easy breaking into an historically lily white sport. Ergo conferences like this.

Lol what?

1) Show up to a rink
2) Learn to skate/play
3) Join a team

Now, the price of playing hockey is astronomical, but thats a socio-economic issue. If a kid is good, no one is going to give 2 s about what he looks like, just like in any other sport. Are kids bullied for all sorts of reasons? Sure, kids are cruel. But is a coach going to racially profile his peewee team? Not a shot. This isn't 1940. When you catch up to the 21st century, give us a ping.

Ever wonder why there aren't many openly gay football players?

[ηєω ƒяσηтιєя]

Racism and discrimination cannot be solved if certain people are not involved or included. I don't agree with DeSantis on everything, but he made the right move here.

Who is being excluded? White people literally run the NHL. About 84% of NHL employees (not including players or coaches) are White.

[ηєω ƒяσηтιєя]

Geography and culture are the biggest reasons why there isn't more non-White (American) players in the NHL.

Ice hockey is obviously most popular and suitable in cold/colder weather regions. However, most Black Americans live in the South, most Latino Americans live in the Southwest and most Asian Americans live on the West Coast and Hawaii. None of those regions are cold/colder weather regions.

Culture-wise, the most popular sports among young Black kids in America are obviously basketball and (American) football. The most popular sports among young Latino kids in America are baseball and soccer. I don't know what the most popular sports among young Asian kids in America are but there has been many Asian American Olympic medalists in sports like gymnastics and figure skating.

Also, hockey equipment is expensive, so that's another challenge.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Didn't log on for a few days. Surprised to see this debate is still going. Thumbing through a few pages I see it's mostly garbage straw man arguments (and that's just among the people I don't have on ignore - can't imagine what garbage people like Ferguson are spewing into the thread).

It's possible to simultaneously think there's a diversity problem in the NHL and think it's a blatant employment issue to have a job fair that only opens its doors to certain people (or, at the very least, forces a subset of people to disclose details about their sexual preferences or their personal health to gain admissions).

The NFL is a great example of this - the league has been >50% Black for as long as I can remember, makes up a similarly large portion of college (essentially farm-league) players, and yet consistently the number of POC players is small. The Rooney Rule is a clunky way to try to get around this but it's imperfect and leads to coaches like Lovie Smith getting a job as Texans HC rather than seeing franchises try their hand at promoting first-time POC HCs. This is in part because there's a shortage of coordinator or specialty-coaches who are POC; having a pipeline where races are in parity in making the transition from player to coach (at any level) should fix this, but of course because there isn't parity the NFL has position coaches and coordinators who are disproportionately white.

So there, you goons. Stop calling me nasty names and stop accusing me of ignoring racism in hiring in professional sports. It's a straw man that leads you to completely ignore the merits of the proposed solution.

The contention is that systematically ruling people out from the initial stages of the career transition or job-finding prospect is also wrong. There's a difference between having a job fair with a subset of its programming devoted to closed-door events and having the entire fair be off limits to certain people. There are ways to address systematic inequities in staff composition without resorting to very obviously unjust measures.

Racism and discrimination cannot be solved if certain people are not involved or included. I don't agree with DeSantis on everything, but he made the right move here.

Who is being excluded? White people literally run the NHL. About 84% of NHL employees (not including players or coaches) are White.

How do you not understand this? The people being excluded from the job fair by definition do not have jobs; they are a different population than owners and current employees by definition otherwise they would not be attending the fair. It's factually incorrect to say these people are not being excluded if they are barred from attending the fair (or otherwise forced to meet a bar that others are not, namely sharing information about their sexuality or disability status). White job seekers are not responsible in any way shape or form for the current inequities in hiring so barring them flies completely in the face of any liberal ideas of justice. You are not challenging the current white employees or owners by denying basic networking or information-seeking to whites at entry-level positions.

This same logic holds that it's okay to impose disenfranchising restrictions on using college-issued student IDs because college campuses are disproportionately white (particularly state flagship campuses). This is ridiculous on its face!

[ηєω ƒяσηтιєя]

How do you not understand this? The people being excluded from the job fair by definition do not have jobs; they are a different population than owners and current employees by definition otherwise they would not be attending the fair. It's factually incorrect to say these people are not being excluded if they are barred from attending the fair (or otherwise forced to meet a bar that others are not, namely sharing information about their sexuality or disability status). White job seekers are not responsible in any way shape or form for the current inequities in hiring so barring them flies completely in the face of any liberal ideas of justice. You are not challenging the current white employees or owners by denying basic networking or information-seeking to whites at entry-level positions.

This same logic holds that it's okay to impose disenfranchising restrictions on using college-issued student IDs because college campuses are disproportionately white (particularly state flagship campuses). This is ridiculous on its face!

Who said that the NHL was only going to hire non-White people?

The NHL never said that (nor are they doing that).

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

How do you not understand this? The people being excluded from the job fair by definition do not have jobs; they are a different population than owners and current employees by definition otherwise they would not be attending the fair. It's factually incorrect to say these people are not being excluded if they are barred from attending the fair (or otherwise forced to meet a bar that others are not, namely sharing information about their sexuality or disability status). White job seekers are not responsible in any way shape or form for the current inequities in hiring so barring them flies completely in the face of any liberal ideas of justice. You are not challenging the current white employees or owners by denying basic networking or information-seeking to whites at entry-level positions.

This same logic holds that it's okay to impose disenfranchising restrictions on using college-issued student IDs because college campuses are disproportionately white (particularly state flagship campuses). This is ridiculous on its face!

Who said that the NHL was only going to hire non-White people?

The NHL never said that (nor are they doing that).

I didn't say anything about the NHL hiring not hiring white people - can you read? They are being excluded from the job fair which is a launchpad for finding a job. It's denying them basic networking opportunities or information on how to pursue a job; if they already had this information or these contacts, they wouldn't need to go to the fair in the first place. Do you understand now?

[DrScholl]

How do you not understand this? The people being excluded from the job fair by definition do not have jobs; they are a different population than owners and current employees by definition otherwise they would not be attending the fair. It's factually incorrect to say these people are not being excluded if they are barred from attending the fair (or otherwise forced to meet a bar that others are not, namely sharing information about their sexuality or disability status). White job seekers are not responsible in any way shape or form for the current inequities in hiring so barring them flies completely in the face of any liberal ideas of justice. You are not challenging the current white employees or owners by denying basic networking or information-seeking to whites at entry-level positions.

This same logic holds that it's okay to impose disenfranchising restrictions on using college-issued student IDs because college campuses are disproportionately white (particularly state flagship campuses). This is ridiculous on its face!

Who said that the NHL was only going to hire non-White people?

The NHL never said that (nor are they doing that).

I didn't say anything about the NHL hiring not hiring white people - can you read? They are being excluded from the job fair which is a launchpad for finding a job. It's denying them basic networking opportunities or information on how to pursue a job; if they already had this information or these contacts, they wouldn't need to go to the fair in the first place. Do you understand now?

It's one event. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. Read it again, ONE. They can still hold other events that are open to all and there is nothing to suggest that preferential hiring was going to occur. The organization already has a talent pool and they merely wanted to expand it by holding an exclusive event to attract applicant who might not otherwise apply. If I were you I'd be more worried about how much DeSantis overreaches with government authority to dictate to private companies. No Governor should be doing this.

[ηєω ƒяσηтιєя]

It's one event. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. Read it again, ONE. They can still hold other events that are open to all and there is nothing to suggest that preferential hiring was going to occur. The organization already has a talent pool and they merely wanted to expand it by holding an exclusive event to attract applicant who might not otherwise apply. If I were you I'd be more worried about how much DeSantis overreaches with government authority to dictate to private companies. No Governor should be doing this.

Exactly!

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

It's one event. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. Read it again, ONE. They can still hold other events that are open to all and there is nothing to suggest that preferential hiring was going to occur.

"It's one election. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. Read it again, ONE. They can still hold other elections that are open to all and there is nothing to suggest that preferential admission to the polls would occur."

Guess it's okay to impose voting restrictions if you only do it once!

The organization already has a talent pool and they merely wanted to expand it by holding an exclusive event to attract applicant who might not otherwise apply.

These potential applicants are also free to attend job fairs that are not exclusive and the potential to achieve the exact same outcome is there if you simply hold some of the events in private instead of all of them.

If I were you I'd be more worried about how much DeSantis overreaches with government authority to dictate to private companies. No Governor should be doing this.

You realize civil rights law "dictates" to private companies all the time right? I live in a state that's had multiple challenges to state laws that stop companies from discriminating against LGBTQ customers (among others). Are you going to next tell me that John Hickenlooper and Jared Polis were overreaching?

[Green Line]

The lengths that Democrats on here will go to defend and promote racism is astounding.  The rot is deep.

[DrScholl]

It's one event. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. Read it again, ONE. They can still hold other events that are open to all and there is nothing to suggest that preferential hiring was going to occur.

"It's one election. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. Read it again, ONE. They can still hold other elections that are open to all and there is nothing to suggest that preferential admission to the polls would occur."

Guess it's okay to impose voting restrictions if you only do it once!

The organization already has a talent pool and they merely wanted to expand it by holding an exclusive event to attract applicant who might not otherwise apply.

These potential applicants are also free to attend job fairs that are not exclusive and the potential to achieve the exact same outcome is there if you simply hold some of the events in private instead of all of them.

If I were you I'd be more worried about how much DeSantis overreaches with government authority to dictate to private companies. No Governor should be doing this.

You realize civil rights law "dictates" to private companies all the time right? I live in a state that's had multiple challenges to state laws that stop companies from discriminating against LGBTQ customers (among others). Are you going to next tell me that John Hickenlooper and Jared Polis were overreaching?

Strange how elections got involved in this. Don't use my point to legitimize Republicans restricting elections.

Applicants of color are less likely to go to a job fair for an organization with a reputation of being "Whites only" (which is what the NHL wants to change). In turn I could argue that a "for everyone" job fair really is "for Whites" job fair by default if you factor in the organization's demographics.

There was no civil rights law violated by the NHL. To argue a civil rights violation you'd need to prove discriminatory hiring processes. A job fair is not a guarantee of employment.

[DrScholl]

The lengths that Democrats on here will go to defend and promote racism is astounding.  The rot is deep.

You had nothing to say when DeSantis violated Florida law (voted into place by voters) to gerrymander the state to eliminate a plurality Black congressional district and used water continuity to extract the Black population out of FL-13 to make it whiter. Racist gerrymandering.

[Ferguson97]

Having events meant to promote the inclusion of minority groups is not something that normal people get angry about.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

It's one event. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. Read it again, ONE. They can still hold other events that are open to all and there is nothing to suggest that preferential hiring was going to occur.

"It's one election. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. ONE. Read it again, ONE. They can still hold other elections that are open to all and there is nothing to suggest that preferential admission to the polls would occur."

Guess it's okay to impose voting restrictions if you only do it once!

The organization already has a talent pool and they merely wanted to expand it by holding an exclusive event to attract applicant who might not otherwise apply.

These potential applicants are also free to attend job fairs that are not exclusive and the potential to achieve the exact same outcome is there if you simply hold some of the events in private instead of all of them.

If I were you I'd be more worried about how much DeSantis overreaches with government authority to dictate to private companies. No Governor should be doing this.

You realize civil rights law "dictates" to private companies all the time right? I live in a state that's had multiple challenges to state laws that stop companies from discriminating against LGBTQ customers (among others). Are you going to next tell me that John Hickenlooper and Jared Polis were overreaching?

Strange how elections got involved in this. Don't use my point to legitimize Republicans restricting elections.

I'm not legitimizing anything - good god, I'm pointing out how your argument is illiberal and unjust by drawing a comparison to a different situation that is also illiberal and unjust.

Applicants of color are less likely to go to a job fair for an organization with a reputation of being "Whites only" (which is what the NHL wants to change). In turn I could argue that a "for everyone" job fair really is "for Whites" job fair by default if you factor in the organization's demographics.

I'm not going to let someone tell me with a straight face that POC and women wouldn't attend a job fair unless it explicitly banned certain demographics from attending. It's wishful thinking. If the league has such a strong "whites only" image then how could there be such a large, disenfranchised non-white fan base and potential applicant pool in the first place?

Even still, it's common practice to include in job postings themselves notes saying that applications from certain marginalized groups are encouraged. The same logic would hold that marginalized people would not apply for a job unless it explicitly said they would only consider applications from that group. You will lose all credibility if you try to argue this is also common.

There was no civil rights law violated by the NHL. To argue a civil rights violation you'd need to prove discriminatory hiring processes. A job fair is not a guarantee of employment.

It's not a guarantee but it's daft and strains credulity to argue that there is no connection between job fairs and guarantee of employment. Under your logic it's just as justifiable for the NHL to have a whites-only job fair because "a job fair is not a guarantee of employment".