BREAKING: US has traded Russian arms dealer, Viktor Bout (Merchant of Death) for Brittney Griner

[Schiff for Senate]

Some of you people just need to admit that you would rather have seen her rot in a Russian prison because she happens to be a Black, relatively butch lesbian.

If you are going to make absurd and outrageous claims like this, you need evidence.

Some of the loudest critics of Biden's move here are notorious racists and homophobes, so why should they be given the benefit of the doubt that their objections are not based on bigotry?

Because there are plenty of reasons to criticize this decision? Are we supposed to never criticize anything involving a black woman or a person who is LGBTQ?

This! Again, I want to firmly say, for the record, this would be a TERRIBLE DEAL even if we got Whelan instead of Griner (honestly it'd be terrible even if we got BOTH of them back). I mean just look at what Fuzzy's said on this subject. I rarely agree with him, and he appears to detest Griner (and I detest him, largely for his belief in the Big Lie), but he's said again and again he fundamentally supports this and is happy for her since she is an American and what would've happened to her in Russia is unjust (I still do think his incessant whining about Griner hating her country and the like is very irritating, but the point stands that he SUPPORTED this decision and is ultimately HAPPY that Griner's out). As for me? I opposed releasing one civilian, whether they're a basketball player, even king/queen of the (W)NBA, whatever, in exchange for this highly dangerous arms dealer we captured with great difficulty. It was a terrible decision on Biden's part to agree to this deal and while we all may celebrate short term Griner's release (I highly doubt anybody, even this forum's most virulent bigots, are actually unhappy about the fact itself that Griner has been released - only about who we left behind in her place, and who we gave up in exchange for her...with me it's more of the latter), I have a terrible feeling there will be much more suffering and pain caused by Bout's release.

[emailking]

Yes unfortunately since they irrationally believe he's a spy the price is much higher, possibly too high. Of course it was still worth it to get Griner home when we could.

[Хahar 🤔]

As for me? I opposed releasing one civilian, whether they're a basketball player, even king/queen of the (W)NBA, whatever, in exchange for this highly dangerous arms dealer we captured with great difficulty.

Had you ever previously heard of this guy about whom you have such strong opinions now?

[Schiff for Senate]

As for me? I opposed releasing one civilian, whether they're a basketball player, even king/queen of the (W)NBA, whatever, in exchange for this highly dangerous arms dealer we captured with great difficulty.

Had you ever previously heard of this guy about whom you have such strong opinions now?

No, I have not, but then, neither did many who are now supporting this swap (and I suspect some of them didn't know who Griner was, either).

And just searching him up, looking at his Wikipedia page - it's plain to see that he is, in fact, very dangerous. Really. You don't have to take my word for it. Just search Viktor Bout up, and you will doubtless see for yourself that the name "Merchant of Death" isn't unwarranted. He was caught conspiring to kill Americans and providing material support to terrorists, among other things. Now we've set him free to finish of what he started, all in exchange for one basketball player. I don't know how much of a factor her gender/sexuality/race was in the decision - I do doubt it made much of an impact - but it was still a terrible decision either way.

[emailking]

Griner has been in the news all year even though this forum mostly ignored it. I'm pretty sure most knew who she was.

I did not know who she was before her arrest though.

[lfromnj]

https://twitter.com/gop4senate2022/status/1601065265164275712?cxt=HHwWgMCqhYeYkL...

[Ferguson97]

Some of you people just need to admit that you would rather have seen her rot in a Russian prison because she happens to be a Black, relatively butch lesbian.

If you are going to make absurd and outrageous claims like this, you need evidence.

Some of the loudest critics of Biden's move here are notorious racists and homophobes, so why should they be given the benefit of the doubt that their objections are not based on bigotry?

Because there are plenty of reasons to criticize this decision? Are we supposed to never criticize anything involving a black woman or a person who is LGBTQ?

That's not what I said at all.

I'm not saying that there are no legitimate criticisms of Biden's decision. Because there are.

But there are certain people who are primarily upset because the freed person was a Black lesbian.

[Lord Halifax]

Bout has already served 2/3rds of his sentence, it’s not like he’s getting away with no punishment.

Nowhere near 2/3rds, less than half. The Thais arrested him in March 2008, he was extradited to the US in August 2010 and in November 2011 convicted and sentenced to 25 years' imprisonment, that's only 11 years ago. So he was arrested 14.5 years ago and extradited 12 1/3 years ago. The time he spent in prison in Thailand doesn't count as part of his American sentence.

[Lord Halifax]

As for me? I opposed releasing one civilian, whether they're a basketball player, even king/queen of the (W)NBA, whatever, in exchange for this highly dangerous arms dealer we captured with great difficulty.

Had you ever previously heard of this guy about whom you have such strong opinions now?

Bout was one of the most famous arms dealers of the 20th century, a major international criminal and a legendary villain with movies and books made about him, once nearly as famous as Pablo Escobar. Maybe young people don't know his name, but he's not exactly some random criminal. I was shocked when I heard they'd agreed to swap him for Griner, I've got nothing against Griner but she's not remotely in the same league. 

[emailking]

Does that matter though? If we were getting an arms dealer back instead it would be an ok trade?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Some of you people just need to admit that you would rather have seen her rot in a Russian prison because she happens to be a Black, relatively butch lesbian.

If you are going to make absurd and outrageous claims like this, you need evidence.

Some of the loudest critics of Biden's move here are notorious racists and homophobes, so why should they be given the benefit of the doubt that their objections are not based on bigotry?

Because there are plenty of reasons to criticize this decision? Are we supposed to never criticize anything involving a black woman or a person who is LGBTQ?

That's not what I said at all.

I'm not saying that there are no legitimate criticisms of Biden's decision. Because there are.

But there are certain people who are primarily upset because the freed person was a Black lesbian.

The main reason I loathe Brittney Griner has nothing to do with race or sexual orientation.  It has a great deal to do with her hating America.   Now I support getting her back, and I,  as well as others,  am uncomfortable with the discussion of what's her life worth vs. Bout's and whomever else you want back or are willing to give up.  But Brittney Griner,  an ungrateful idiot, is back home because the nation she actively loathes places a higher value on HER human life than any other nation in the World,  including nations she considers morally superior to ours.

Perhaps you can stop playing the race card and LGBT card (and the partisan hack card, for that matter) and recognize that this nation does value human life in ways that most nations don't.   She's not home because she's a fine person; she's not, but she's not as bad as Bowe Bergdahl, and we gave up more to get him back.  No one likes an ingrate.  Perhaps Brittney Griner can come realize that she's Home Free because her Country has more virtue than she does.

[Lord Halifax]

Does that matter though? If we were getting an arms dealer back instead it would be an ok trade?

no, Bout supplied terrorists and should never have been released, ideally they should have had him killed in prison. 

[Хahar 🤔]

As for me? I opposed releasing one civilian, whether they're a basketball player, even king/queen of the (W)NBA, whatever, in exchange for this highly dangerous arms dealer we captured with great difficulty.

Had you ever previously heard of this guy about whom you have such strong opinions now?

Bout was one of the most famous arms dealers of the 20th century, a major international criminal and a legendary villain with movies and books made about him, once nearly as famous as Pablo Escobar. Maybe young people don't know his name, but he's not exactly some random criminal. I was shocked when I heard they'd agreed to swap him for Griner, I've got nothing against Griner but she's not remotely in the same league. 

Brittney Griner put up 26 and 13 with five blocks in the national championship game. I don't think this guy is in her league!

[emailking]

Does that matter though? If we were getting an arms dealer back instead it would be an ok trade?

no, Bout supplied terrorists and should never have been released, ideally they should have had him killed in prison. 

Ok I don't know what you mean by she's not in the same league then.

[7,052,770]

I imagine there were probably more terms to this agreement (maybe in both directions) that aren't going to be released publicly ever, so it's impossible to really judge it. I'm glad we'll go to the ends of the Earth to get back American political prisoners held unjustly abroad, but I do hope the pot was sweetened a bit.

[Santander]

I imagine there were probably more terms to this agreement (maybe in both directions) that aren't going to be released publicly ever, so it's impossible to really judge it. I'm glad we'll go to the ends of the Earth to get back American political prisoners held unjustly abroad, but I do hope the pot was sweetened a bit.

LOL. She is a dumb pothead who hates America, not a "political prisoner".

[SteveRogers]

Some of you people just need to admit that you would rather have seen her rot in a Russian prison because she happens to be a Black, relatively butch lesbian.

If you are going to make absurd and outrageous claims like this, you need evidence.

Some of the loudest critics of Biden's move here are notorious racists and homophobes, so why should they be given the benefit of the doubt that their objections are not based on bigotry?

Because there are plenty of reasons to criticize this decision? Are we supposed to never criticize anything involving a black woman or a person who is LGBTQ?

That's not what I said at all.

I'm not saying that there are no legitimate criticisms of Biden's decision. Because there are.

But there are certain people who are primarily upset because the freed person was a Black lesbian.

The main reason I loathe Brittney Griner has nothing to do with race or sexual orientation.  It has a great deal to do with her hating America.   Now I support getting her back, and I,  as well as others,  am uncomfortable with the discussion of what's her life worth vs. Bout's and whomever else you want back or are willing to give up.  But Brittney Griner,  an ungrateful idiot, is back home because the nation she actively loathes places a higher value on HER human life than any other nation in the World,  including nations she considers morally superior to ours.

Perhaps you can stop playing the race card and LGBT card (and the partisan hack card, for that matter) and recognize that this nation does value human life in ways that most nations don't.   She's not home because she's a fine person; she's not, but she's not as bad as Bowe Bergdahl, and we gave up more to get him back.  No one likes an ingrate.  Perhaps Brittney Griner can come realize that she's Home Free because her Country has more virtue than she does.

Yes yes, we know. Everyone who disagrees with you politically must “hate America.”

[Fuzzy Bear]

Some of you people just need to admit that you would rather have seen her rot in a Russian prison because she happens to be a Black, relatively butch lesbian.

If you are going to make absurd and outrageous claims like this, you need evidence.

Some of the loudest critics of Biden's move here are notorious racists and homophobes, so why should they be given the benefit of the doubt that their objections are not based on bigotry?

Because there are plenty of reasons to criticize this decision? Are we supposed to never criticize anything involving a black woman or a person who is LGBTQ?

That's not what I said at all.

I'm not saying that there are no legitimate criticisms of Biden's decision. Because there are.

But there are certain people who are primarily upset because the freed person was a Black lesbian.

The main reason I loathe Brittney Griner has nothing to do with race or sexual orientation.  It has a great deal to do with her hating America.   Now I support getting her back, and I,  as well as others,  am uncomfortable with the discussion of what's her life worth vs. Bout's and whomever else you want back or are willing to give up.  But Brittney Griner,  an ungrateful idiot, is back home because the nation she actively loathes places a higher value on HER human life than any other nation in the World,  including nations she considers morally superior to ours.

Perhaps you can stop playing the race card and LGBT card (and the partisan hack card, for that matter) and recognize that this nation does value human life in ways that most nations don't.   She's not home because she's a fine person; she's not, but she's not as bad as Bowe Bergdahl, and we gave up more to get him back.  No one likes an ingrate.  Perhaps Brittney Griner can come realize that she's Home Free because her Country has more virtue than she does.

Yes yes, we know. Everyone who disagrees with you politically must “hate America.”

Brittney Griner DOES hate America; let's stop kidding ourselves.  She's not "showing her patriotism in a different way" or some kind of drivel like that.  She has had nothing but criticism in her public statements, and she delights in the offense she causes among millions of Americans who believe that America is a fundamentally GOOD nation that has, on balance, been a force for Good in the World. 

Once upon a time, there was a man who had a wife.  In his conversation with his wife he would almost always be critical about her personality, and her family (how she came from a line of losers), how they were this and that negative quality.  He would always acknowledge her as his wife, but he would be openly critical of her (she needs to lose weight "for her health", she "doesn't understand him", etc.  You get the drift.  As to telling his wife that he loves her, this husband would say things like "You know I love you!", or (even worse) "I've already told you that."  Now this husband did fulfill his obligation to work, pay the bills, etc. and he did not cheat.

Does this man love his wife?  Of course not; he hates and despises her.  He doesn't want that reputation, because that reputation is inconvenient, but he hates her.  Someone who loves their wife shows it.  Someone who loves their wife emphasizes the positive and discusses their differences discreetly.  And someone who loves their wife (or their parents, or their kids, for that matter) affirms that every day.  People who can't do that are people who don't love their wives but don't want the whole world to know that.

This hypothetical example illustrates Brittney Griner's feelings toward America.  She hates it.  Until, of course, she needs America to save her from the wrath of Mad Vlad.  These husbands have their "Mad Vlad" days as well, when they realize that they NEED their wife, but their wife, after being mentally and emotionally loathed comes to their aid, but the years of emotional neglect shows in her lack of an enthusiastic response.  That's where I am with Brittney Griner, and where millions of Americans are with this issue.  We're glad she's home because she's one of the family.  But she's been a lousy family member.  I'm hoping that this experience will prove transformative for Griner, but to tell me that Brittney Griner doesn't hate America is to tell me that it's raining while you allow your to relieve himself/herself on my pant leg.

[7,052,770]

I imagine there were probably more terms to this agreement (maybe in both directions) that aren't going to be released publicly ever, so it's impossible to really judge it. I'm glad we'll go to the ends of the Earth to get back American political prisoners held unjustly abroad, but I do hope the pot was sweetened a bit.

LOL. She is a dumb pothead who hates America, not a "political prisoner".

Regardless of whether or not that's true, none of this would have happened without the tensions between Russia and the USA caused by Putin's invasion of Ukraine's. If both Russia and the USA view her as a political prisoner, she was a political prisoner.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I imagine there were probably more terms to this agreement (maybe in both directions) that aren't going to be released publicly ever, so it's impossible to really judge it. I'm glad we'll go to the ends of the Earth to get back American political prisoners held unjustly abroad, but I do hope the pot was sweetened a bit.

LOL. She is a dumb pothead who hates America, not a "political prisoner".

Regardless of whether or not that's true, none of this would have happened without the tensions between Russia and the USA caused by Putin's invasion of Ukraine's. If both Russia and the USA view her as a political prisoner, she was a political prisoner.

Griner was a political prisoner not of conscience, but of being a useful pawn.  Harry's right about the bottom line here.

[Ferguson97]

Brittney Griner DOES hate America; let's stop kidding ourselves.  She's not "showing her patriotism in a different way" or some kind of drivel like that.  She has had nothing but criticism in her public statements, and she delights in the offense she causes among millions of Americans who believe that America is a fundamentally GOOD nation that has, on balance, been a force for Good in the World. 

Once upon a time, there was a man who had a wife.  In his conversation with his wife he would almost always be critical about her personality, and her family (how she came from a line of losers), how they were this and that negative quality.  He would always acknowledge her as his wife, but he would be openly critical of her (she needs to lose weight "for her health", she "doesn't understand him", etc.  You get the drift.  As to telling his wife that he loves her, this husband would say things like "You know I love you!", or (even worse) "I've already told you that."  Now this husband did fulfill his obligation to work, pay the bills, etc. and he did not cheat.

Does this man love his wife?  Of course not; he hates and despises her.  He doesn't want that reputation, because that reputation is inconvenient, but he hates her.  Someone who loves their wife shows it.  Someone who loves their wife emphasizes the positive and discusses their differences discreetly.  And someone who loves their wife (or their parents, or their kids, for that matter) affirms that every day.  People who can't do that are people who don't love their wives but don't want the whole world to know that.

This hypothetical example illustrates Brittney Griner's feelings toward America.  She hates it.  Until, of course, she needs America to save her from the wrath of Mad Vlad.  These husbands have their "Mad Vlad" days as well, when they realize that they NEED their wife, but their wife, after being mentally and emotionally loathed comes to their aid, but the years of emotional neglect shows in her lack of an enthusiastic response.  That's where I am with Brittney Griner, and where millions of Americans are with this issue.  We're glad she's home because she's one of the family.  But she's been a lousy family member.  I'm hoping that this experience will prove transformative for Griner, but to tell me that Brittney Griner doesn't hate America is to tell me that it's raining while you allow your to relieve himself/herself on my pant leg.

Do you honestly believe that a) criticizing America means you hate it or that b) the relationship between a husband and his wife is in any way, shape, or form comparable to the relationship between a person and their country?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Brittney Griner DOES hate America; let's stop kidding ourselves.  She's not "showing her patriotism in a different way" or some kind of drivel like that.  She has had nothing but criticism in her public statements, and she delights in the offense she causes among millions of Americans who believe that America is a fundamentally GOOD nation that has, on balance, been a force for Good in the World. 

Once upon a time, there was a man who had a wife.  In his conversation with his wife he would almost always be critical about her personality, and her family (how she came from a line of losers), how they were this and that negative quality.  He would always acknowledge her as his wife, but he would be openly critical of her (she needs to lose weight "for her health", she "doesn't understand him", etc.  You get the drift.  As to telling his wife that he loves her, this husband would say things like "You know I love you!", or (even worse) "I've already told you that."  Now this husband did fulfill his obligation to work, pay the bills, etc. and he did not cheat.

Does this man love his wife?  Of course not; he hates and despises her.  He doesn't want that reputation, because that reputation is inconvenient, but he hates her.  Someone who loves their wife shows it.  Someone who loves their wife emphasizes the positive and discusses their differences discreetly.  And someone who loves their wife (or their parents, or their kids, for that matter) affirms that every day.  People who can't do that are people who don't love their wives but don't want the whole world to know that.

This hypothetical example illustrates Brittney Griner's feelings toward America.  She hates it.  Until, of course, she needs America to save her from the wrath of Mad Vlad.  These husbands have their "Mad Vlad" days as well, when they realize that they NEED their wife, but their wife, after being mentally and emotionally loathed comes to their aid, but the years of emotional neglect shows in her lack of an enthusiastic response.  That's where I am with Brittney Griner, and where millions of Americans are with this issue.  We're glad she's home because she's one of the family.  But she's been a lousy family member.  I'm hoping that this experience will prove transformative for Griner, but to tell me that Brittney Griner doesn't hate America is to tell me that it's raining while you allow your to relieve himself/herself on my pant leg.

Do you honestly believe that a) criticizing America means you hate it or that b) the relationship between a husband and his wife is in any way, shape, or form comparable to the relationship between a person and their country?

When a person's public rhetoric is nothing but criticism and when their public gestures are those with affirmatively deny a sense of connectedness with America (e. g. conspicuously standing for the Anthem, as opposed to passively standing), then, yes, that's hatred.  Not the hatred of the ranting lunatic, but the hatred of the person who would see you being mugged and not call the cops, or who would see you injured and not render aid if it were inconvenient to do so.

What evidence is there that Brittany Griner has any positive vibe for America?  We've seen the hostility; you show me the other side of the coin.  America has its faults, and I've certainly been critical of America in my lifetime, but where's the sense of anything positive that Griner feels toward America, as a nation (as opposed to her "community" or "Americans of Color" or any subgroup that does not reflect America as a whole)?

[Ferguson97]

Brittney Griner DOES hate America; let's stop kidding ourselves.  She's not "showing her patriotism in a different way" or some kind of drivel like that.  She has had nothing but criticism in her public statements, and she delights in the offense she causes among millions of Americans who believe that America is a fundamentally GOOD nation that has, on balance, been a force for Good in the World. 

Once upon a time, there was a man who had a wife.  In his conversation with his wife he would almost always be critical about her personality, and her family (how she came from a line of losers), how they were this and that negative quality.  He would always acknowledge her as his wife, but he would be openly critical of her (she needs to lose weight "for her health", she "doesn't understand him", etc.  You get the drift.  As to telling his wife that he loves her, this husband would say things like "You know I love you!", or (even worse) "I've already told you that."  Now this husband did fulfill his obligation to work, pay the bills, etc. and he did not cheat.

Does this man love his wife?  Of course not; he hates and despises her.  He doesn't want that reputation, because that reputation is inconvenient, but he hates her.  Someone who loves their wife shows it.  Someone who loves their wife emphasizes the positive and discusses their differences discreetly.  And someone who loves their wife (or their parents, or their kids, for that matter) affirms that every day.  People who can't do that are people who don't love their wives but don't want the whole world to know that.

This hypothetical example illustrates Brittney Griner's feelings toward America.  She hates it.  Until, of course, she needs America to save her from the wrath of Mad Vlad.  These husbands have their "Mad Vlad" days as well, when they realize that they NEED their wife, but their wife, after being mentally and emotionally loathed comes to their aid, but the years of emotional neglect shows in her lack of an enthusiastic response.  That's where I am with Brittney Griner, and where millions of Americans are with this issue.  We're glad she's home because she's one of the family.  But she's been a lousy family member.  I'm hoping that this experience will prove transformative for Griner, but to tell me that Brittney Griner doesn't hate America is to tell me that it's raining while you allow your to relieve himself/herself on my pant leg.

Do you honestly believe that a) criticizing America means you hate it or that b) the relationship between a husband and his wife is in any way, shape, or form comparable to the relationship between a person and their country?

When a person's public rhetoric is nothing but criticism and when their public gestures are those with affirmatively deny a sense of connectedness with America (e. g. conspicuously standing for the Anthem, as opposed to passively standing), then, yes, that's hatred.  Not the hatred of the ranting lunatic, but the hatred of the person who would see you being mugged and not call the cops, or who would see you injured and not render aid if it were inconvenient to do so.

What evidence is there that Brittany Griner has any positive vibe for America?  We've seen the hostility; you show me the other side of the coin.  America has its faults, and I've certainly been critical of America in my lifetime, but where's the sense of anything positive that Griner feels toward America, as a nation (as opposed to her "community" or "Americans of Color" or any subgroup that does not reflect America as a whole)?

Kneeling for the national anthem does not mean that she hates America. That’s a ridiculous assertion.

To me, loving America should be more about the values you hold and the sort of changes that you want to see, the idea that we can do better, rather than purely performative gestures like flag-waving or singing the national anthem.

[YE]

Why does the any left wing criticism of America turn into “hating American”?

[SteveRogers]

Brittney Griner DOES hate America; let's stop kidding ourselves.  She's not "showing her patriotism in a different way" or some kind of drivel like that.  She has had nothing but criticism in her public statements, and she delights in the offense she causes among millions of Americans who believe that America is a fundamentally GOOD nation that has, on balance, been a force for Good in the World. 

Once upon a time, there was a man who had a wife.  In his conversation with his wife he would almost always be critical about her personality, and her family (how she came from a line of losers), how they were this and that negative quality.  He would always acknowledge her as his wife, but he would be openly critical of her (she needs to lose weight "for her health", she "doesn't understand him", etc.  You get the drift.  As to telling his wife that he loves her, this husband would say things like "You know I love you!", or (even worse) "I've already told you that."  Now this husband did fulfill his obligation to work, pay the bills, etc. and he did not cheat.

Does this man love his wife?  Of course not; he hates and despises her.  He doesn't want that reputation, because that reputation is inconvenient, but he hates her.  Someone who loves their wife shows it.  Someone who loves their wife emphasizes the positive and discusses their differences discreetly.  And someone who loves their wife (or their parents, or their kids, for that matter) affirms that every day.  People who can't do that are people who don't love their wives but don't want the whole world to know that.

This hypothetical example illustrates Brittney Griner's feelings toward America.  She hates it.  Until, of course, she needs America to save her from the wrath of Mad Vlad.  These husbands have their "Mad Vlad" days as well, when they realize that they NEED their wife, but their wife, after being mentally and emotionally loathed comes to their aid, but the years of emotional neglect shows in her lack of an enthusiastic response.  That's where I am with Brittney Griner, and where millions of Americans are with this issue.  We're glad she's home because she's one of the family.  But she's been a lousy family member.  I'm hoping that this experience will prove transformative for Griner, but to tell me that Brittney Griner doesn't hate America is to tell me that it's raining while you allow your to relieve himself/herself on my pant leg.

You're extrapolating all of that from the fact that Giner dares to question why the national anthem is played before sporting events?

What a disingenuous, reductivist, and altogether lazy way to process the views of people who don't agree with you.