Opinion of recently banned poster: citizenZ

[Fuzzy Bear]

This makes the ridiculously lenient 30 day mute for Ferguson97 less just by the minute.

[Fuzzy Bear]

This makes the ridiculously lenient 30 day mute for Ferguson97 less just by the minute.

I've deleted two (2) responses I made to this.  I've learned that citizenZ was a sock for ReaganFan; he admitted it somewhere else. 

I'll apologize to moderators for jumping to a conclusion.  This does not change my position that your sanction is inadequate for your action, but I'll own it when I'm wrong.

[Fuzzy Bear]

citizenZ was a sock for ReaganFan; he admitted it somewhere else.

Somehow this doesn't surprise me in the least

Coolface is my hero, lol.

[Fuzzy Bear]

This does not change my position that your sanction is inadequate for your action, but I'll own it when I'm wrong.

Yeah, you made that clear with your 7 pages worth of posts about it.

When are you going to stop complaining about it?

Not for a while.  You deserve having to deal with it.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I'm curious what the last straw was (and why they jumped to a permaban instead of the normal temp bans first procedure, not that he didn't deserve it.)

User in question received a thread mute a while back and what the user posted was honestly the most vile series of posts I’ve seen by a user in my 46 months as moderator here so I was fine with escalating faster. Don’t expect this to be a norm going forward here either.

Is there any truth to the recent Reaganfan sock allegation?

Based on the location of the IP, I don’t doubt it.

He actually admitted it on another site.  I wouldn't post something like that if that weren't the case.

ReaganFan, for all his faults, was a more decent human being toward other posters here than Ferguson97, Hindsight was 2020, ProudModerate2, and a host of others I can think of.  He did not crassly attack people, he was generally respectful even with people he did not agree with.  His bigoted commentaries (which I don't know what they were, so I'll take people's word for them) earned him his ban, and they are a violation of the ToS.

Honestly, though:  Why should I think less highly of citizenZ/ReaganFan/The Voice of America (his various user names) than I do of Ferguson97 (who is fundamentally unsanctioned for his unhinged attacks), ProudModerate2 (who is an unsanctioned troll of me), Hindsight was 2020, Joe Republic (who has implied I'm going senile)?  ReaganFan has been more decent to people that hate him here than those people have been to others they disagree with.  

ReaganFan has never made the kind of personal attack on other posters that Ferguson97, Indy Texas, and MasterJedi have made on me, yet they're still here, and they're LAUDED by some of the people I just mentioned.  I'm not defending making a sock (that's something that gets you permabanned and he knew it, so . . .).  It seems though that being a scumbag toward your peers here counts for very little (at least if you're on the left).  That's my issue.  It really does gall me that Ferguson97 has anything to say about any other poster in light of his own personal attack against me (which, quite frankly, he has never apologized for, or even indicated was even a teensy bit over the top).  

It's not OK that Ferguson97 wins here.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I don't know who this person is!!!!!!!!!

He was ReaganFan.  He also posted as The Voice of America.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I don't know who this person is!!!!!!!!!

At less than 0.7 posts per day, you're not addicted to Atlas like some of us, so we understand that you aren't aware of ReaganFan. 

[Fuzzy Bear]

I'm curious what the last straw was (and why they jumped to a permaban instead of the normal temp bans first procedure, not that he didn't deserve it.)

User in question received a thread mute a while back and what the user posted was honestly the most vile series of posts I’ve seen by a user in my 46 months as moderator here so I was fine with escalating faster. Don’t expect this to be a norm going forward here either.

Is there any truth to the recent Reaganfan sock allegation?

Based on the location of the IP, I don’t doubt it.

He actually admitted it on another site.  I wouldn't post something like that if that weren't the case.

ReaganFan, for all his faults, was a more decent human being toward other posters here than Ferguson97, Hindsight was 2020, ProudModerate2, and a host of others I can think of.  He did not crassly attack people, he was generally respectful even with people he did not agree with.  His bigoted commentaries (which I don't know what they were, so I'll take people's word for them) earned him his ban, and they are a violation of the ToS.

Honestly, though:  Why should I think less highly of citizenZ/ReaganFan/The Voice of America (his various user names) than I do of Ferguson97 (who is fundamentally unsanctioned for his unhinged attacks), ProudModerate2 (who is an unsanctioned troll of me), Hindsight was 2020, Joe Republic (who has implied I'm going senile)?  ReaganFan has been more decent to people that hate him here than those people have been to others they disagree with.  

ReaganFan has never made the kind of personal attack on other posters that Ferguson97, Indy Texas, and MasterJedi have made on me, yet they're still here, and they're LAUDED by some of the people I just mentioned.  I'm not defending making a sock (that's something that gets you permabanned and he knew it, so . . .).  It seems though that being a scumbag toward your peers here counts for very little (at least if you're on the left).  That's my issue.  It really does gall me that Ferguson97 has anything to say about any other poster in light of his own personal attack against me (which, quite frankly, he has never apologized for, or even indicated was even a teensy bit over the top).  

It's not OK that Ferguson97 wins here.

You really are absolutely obsessed.

Ah, the moderator who referred to me as a ghoul.  (So much for personal attacks being against the ToS.)

He's the third poster to make a libelous personal attack against me, part of which used my family.  He received no sanction; he hasn't missed a day of this place.  That's not fair, not at all, but if I were to do the same to him, I'd be tempbanned for at least 30 days, and likely longer.  So you tell me why I should just blow this off?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Your comment agreeing with Ferguson97's personal attack on me (which was false in its entirety) was one of the lowest things anyone has ever done here.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I'm curious what the last straw was (and why they jumped to a permaban instead of the normal temp bans first procedure, not that he didn't deserve it.)

User in question received a thread mute a while back and what the user posted was honestly the most vile series of posts I’ve seen by a user in my 46 months as moderator here so I was fine with escalating faster. Don’t expect this to be a norm going forward here either.

Is there any truth to the recent Reaganfan sock allegation?

Based on the location of the IP, I don’t doubt it.

He actually admitted it on another site.  I wouldn't post something like that if that weren't the case.

ReaganFan, for all his faults, was a more decent human being toward other posters here than Ferguson97, Hindsight was 2020, ProudModerate2, and a host of others I can think of.  He did not crassly attack people, he was generally respectful even with people he did not agree with.  His bigoted commentaries (which I don't know what they were, so I'll take people's word for them) earned him his ban, and they are a violation of the ToS.

Honestly, though:  Why should I think less highly of citizenZ/ReaganFan/The Voice of America (his various user names) than I do of Ferguson97 (who is fundamentally unsanctioned for his unhinged attacks), ProudModerate2 (who is an unsanctioned troll of me), Hindsight was 2020, Joe Republic (who has implied I'm going senile)?  ReaganFan has been more decent to people that hate him here than those people have been to others they disagree with.  

ReaganFan has never made the kind of personal attack on other posters that Ferguson97, Indy Texas, and MasterJedi have made on me, yet they're still here, and they're LAUDED by some of the people I just mentioned.  I'm not defending making a sock (that's something that gets you permabanned and he knew it, so . . .).  It seems though that being a scumbag toward your peers here counts for very little (at least if you're on the left).  That's my issue.  It really does gall me that Ferguson97 has anything to say about any other poster in light of his own personal attack against me (which, quite frankly, he has never apologized for, or even indicated was even a teensy bit over the top).  

It's not OK that Ferguson97 wins here.

You really are absolutely obsessed.

Ah, the moderator who referred to me as a ghoul.  (So much for personal attacks being against the ToS.)

He's the third poster to make a libelous personal attack against me, part of which used my family.  He received no sanction; he hasn't missed a day of this place.  That's not fair, not at all, but if I were to do the same to him, I'd be tempbanned for at least 30 days, and likely longer.  So you tell me why I should just blow this off?

I called you a ghoul because you derailed breaking news on the Uvalde shooting.

I was responding to the multiple posters using the thread to call for depriving law abiding gun owners of their 2nd Amendment rights, an issue brought up by the poster who started the thread.  It was a thread that embodied the spirit of not letting a crisis go to waste, as well as a well-established tradition here where the sorrow for the families of victims is in direct proportion to the ability of the crime to be used as narrative for other causes.  Forgive my cynicism, but the selective outrage and grief here over mass shooting victims here is telling.  

As is the selective tolerance for libelous personal attacks.  My issue here is the double standard.  Ferguson was, effectively, unsanctioned.  Please tell me why I should be OK with that?

[Fuzzy Bear]

He was not 'unsanctioned'. You know this. You can't demand that posters be sanctioned in accordance with your desired outcome and continually spamming threads about it.

If you are of the nature that you can't let this go, then perhaps think whether you should take a break from a place if it is causing you stress or anxiety.

He was muted for 30 days from USGD.  He has been free to post on the entire forum unchecked, so he is ACTUALLY unsanctioned.  It is comparable to tell a kid "No TV for a month!", then sending to his room while he gets to keep all of his devices?

If I made a similar comment about Ferguson97, what sanction would you have in mind for me?

[Fuzzy Bear]

     Also, Joe is right: take the day off. I like you Fuzzy, but this isn't the day for Atlas drama.

I guess.

[Fuzzy Bear]

This does not change my position that your sanction is inadequate for your action, but I'll own it when I'm wrong.

Yeah, you made that clear with your 7 pages worth of posts about it.

When are you going to stop complaining about it?

Not for a while.  You deserve having to deal with it.

You’re in your 60s, right? Do you think that this behavior is consistent with the maturity level of most people your age?

Given that you are totally unapologetic for your libel the answer is a resounding "yes".

That's the reality; you're fundamentally unsanctioned and plainly unapologetic.  People in that position are not to be taken seriously in their critiques of others.

[Fuzzy Bear]

He was not 'unsanctioned'. You know this. You can't demand that posters be sanctioned in accordance with your desired outcome and continually spamming threads about it.

If you are of the nature that you can't let this go, then perhaps think whether you should take a break from a place if it is causing you stress or anxiety.

Shouldn't a "sanction" cause someone to be unable to participate in the normal activities of the Forum?  That's a serious question.

CitizenZ, were it not for the fact that he was a sock of a permabanned poster, arguably did not deserve a permaban, and he was permabanned before that fact came to light.  When you're barred from one forum, you get to do your thing in multiple others.  Nothing has stopped Ferguson97 from fully expressing himself.  And nothing has been required him; no contrition, no tacit admission that he was wrong, not even an admission that he broke rules and would not do so again.  He's got some kind of "black mark" that will be considered "next time".  Of course, when "next time" comes, those who wish to protect him (and I count you in that number) will make the argument that "It's been a long time!" since his last sanction, etc.

Fairness is a concept that requires something to compare it to.  The fairness of the actions of moderators here is determined by (A) comparing what a poster did to what is prohibited on teh ToS and (B) comparing the sanction the poster received to what sanctions other posters in comparable situations have received.  The treatment of CitizenZ was, arguably, right for the wrong reason. 

[Fuzzy Bear]

CitizenZ, were it not for the fact that he was a sock of a permabanned poster, arguably did not deserve a permaban, and he was permabanned before that fact came to light.

Some of the homophobic and transphobic things he posted on the night of his ban were deeply bigoted... on par with the worst I've seen on this forum before. He deserved at a bare minimum a several month ban for that.

I'm curious; what did Ferguson97 deserve?

[Fuzzy Bear]

CitizenZ, were it not for the fact that he was a sock of a permabanned poster, arguably did not deserve a permaban, and he was permabanned before that fact came to light.

Some of the homophobic and transphobic things he posted on the night of his ban were deeply bigoted... on par with the worst I've seen on this forum before. He deserved at a bare minimum a several month ban for that.

I'm curious; what did Ferguson97 deserve?

2 week or less ban from USGD. I PERSONALLY don't think crossing the line and saying something inappropriate about somebody deserves a long ban, unless you've already had multiple short-term bans and you continue to cross the line repeatedly. I think longer-term bans should be reserved for extreme cases or extremely bigoted stuff, Hitler worship, pro-genocide comments, etc etc. I think hurting somebody's feelings isn't a huge of a deal as spreading hate or hateful lies. Others may disagree and that's fine.

So stating that my ambition is to work as a guard at a Trans Interment Camp is OK?  Or using my family in his attack; is that OK?  Is that only deserving of a meaningless sanction?

[Fuzzy Bear]

I'm curious; what did Ferguson97 deserve?

2 week or less ban from USGD. I PERSONALLY don't think crossing the line and saying something inappropriate about somebody deserves a long ban, unless you've already had multiple short-term bans and you continue to cross the line repeatedly. I think longer-term bans should be reserved for extreme cases or extremely bigoted stuff, Hitler worship, pro-genocide comments, etc etc. I think hurting somebody's feelings isn't a huge of a deal as spreading hate or hateful lies. Others may disagree and that's fine.

So stating that my ambition is to work as a guard at a Trans Interment Camp is OK?  Or using my family in his attack; is that OK?  Is that only deserving of a meaningless sanction?

I didn't say it was okay. I said it wasn't the kind of thing I would endorse a long-term ban for (except for repeat offense #3, #4, #5, etc etc). Yes, I would apply that same standard to all posters and all avatar colours on either side of the slander. I'm just generally not a fan of HEAVILY infracting somebody for being an a55hole. There are other punishments, such as partially losing your reputation amongst other posters, that are associated with that.

At no time did you criticize Ferguson97 on this forum for this.  You never pointed out even the minimal standard that he hasn't even admitted fault in the matter.  You did, however, give me much flak for raising the issue of an inadequate sanction.

He's not lost any reputation, and you've helped him preserve his reputation, have you not?  And you have attacked me repeatedly for my position over this, have you not?  If this is your standard, why did you work to bring the exact opposite forth?