Israel General Discussion: Annus Horribilis

[CumbrianLefty]

Well if Hollywood did get out more, they might notice what is going on in Iran right now.

If there's one thing the mullahs are currently praying for, its military intervention from Israel/US.

[CumbrianLefty]

Ben Gvir posted and then deleted a eulogy for judeo-nazi terrorist Kahana: "Murdered as a martyr", "I had the privilege to learn his writings", "in his yeshivah there was love for everyone"

Does he lionise Baruch Goldstein as well?

[CumbrianLefty]

He could at least choose the rather more pithy "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" (unfortunately, have forgotten who actually said that)

[CumbrianLefty]

Indeed, arguably few assasins have been more successful in their aims than Yigal Amir.

[CumbrianLefty]

Any comments on how Israel moves ever closer to an authoritarian theocratic ethnostate, pal?

[CumbrianLefty]

Israeli Youth Lead Turn to the Far Right as Violence Increases

Of course. I've called this for a decade now.

In most countries the youth lean left, but in Israel they are reactionary religious conservatives. It won't be long before gay rights are rolled back there too making Israel even more indistinguishable from the neighbors it constantly claims moral superiority over.

Any evidence on the LGBTQ rights part?

Israel is unique politically on the matter, with those on the left actually less accepting of gay people than those in the center. I would assume part of this is similar to Reagan nostalgia in that older Israelis remember the old leftist governments.

Younger Israelis lean more to the right in terms of hating Palestinians, but the idea that most of them have Iranian-level takes on LGBTQ rights is comical.

Well, we will see I suppose.

Though you would surely agree that theocrats aren't terribly well disposed to gay rights on the whole.

[CumbrianLefty]

Unless your definition of "the left" is unreconstructed tankies and literally nobody else.

[CumbrianLefty]

Being cynical, at his age now he sees "the future" as somebody else's problem?

[CumbrianLefty]

I think you will find Palestine is recognised by more than just "a few poor countries".

Plus they have some other notable trappings of statehood such as competing in sporting events - not true generally of Somaliland or Western Sahara (to take just two seemingly similar examples)

[CumbrianLefty]

I care about Western Sahara and always have done, as with many other "Westerners".

Please take your sweeping generalisations elsewhere.

Oh, and happy Christmas

[CumbrianLefty]

From what I've been reading it seems people think that this government could actually last the whole time it is supposed to last. This seems strange to me since A) the only thing Bibi's government seem to have in common is being utterly atrocious bigoted clowns, and their majority isn't that much bigger than the various 2018-2022 circus governments and B) Israeli politics seems to be generally unstable.

This is something I have also been sceptical of from the start - and surprised so many others aren't.

[CumbrianLefty]

What will be the argument of the blindly pro-Israel apologists if "its the only democracy in the Middle East" no longer applies? All but the most extreme will shy away from openly ethnic justifications, so this is a genuinely intriguing question.

[CumbrianLefty]

I entered "a delirious rant by an American poster who knows basically nothing about anything" into ChatGPT and look what I got!

There, amended for even greater accuracy

[CumbrianLefty]

Anyone have any speculation as to what the end game of this initiative to emasculate the judiciary will be? At what point will the ongoing evolution of Israel if it continues precipitate a substantial increase in emigration, as particularly young people just give up on the place?

I’m not an Israeli obviously, but my understanding is that younger Israelis tend to be very firmly on the political right (particularly when it comes to the question of whether Israel is a ‘Jewish and democratic’ or simply a Jewish state), so it seems unlikely that young people as a group would be the ones who ‘give up’ on Israel.

Its the sorts of young people that would leave - ie a genuine "brain drain". Maybe a minority, but one that Israel can ill afford to lose given its pretensions towards being a modern technological economy.

[CumbrianLefty]

Yes, endless war was very much a neocon idea. How has it worked out in practice?

[CumbrianLefty]

I was watching last night an interview with this very articulate history professor at U of M knowledgeable about Israel, and he did not expect much of the planned Blinken visit to Israel. He expected him to mouth platitudes about a two state solution, and so forth, that is dead in the water. I then looked up what happened with the Blinken trip. It appears next to nothing. Does anyone have an opinion of what he accomplished, and the impact of the visit, other than the null set, and mouthing of platitudes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-pA23q4eZ8

The Americans have no policy minus worthless platitudes and sticking their heads in the sand. Well at least in terms of this administration/party.

Withhold US aids.

Let see how far Israel go before it starts begging for our money.

The point I'm making is they won't withhold any aid regardless of what this government does.

Starting to think this may not be true indefinitely after all.

[CumbrianLefty]

Meretz reaching the threshold clearly does make a significant difference, despite their small size now.

[CumbrianLefty]

What, she said that in the last 24 hours?

[CumbrianLefty]

I'm sure that Israel will be better off going forward with no meaningful left presence at all, yeah

[CumbrianLefty]

Some big protests again last night, this government isn't having it all their own way for sure.

[CumbrianLefty]

Is this level of political intervention normal for an Israeli president?

I think they have made "political" statements in the past, so yes to at least an extent.

[CumbrianLefty]

Israel doesn't have a constitution

Ah, didn't know this.

(though given the British influence originally, maybe not totally surprising)

[CumbrianLefty]

There does seem to be real resistance in Israel now, which is something.

[CumbrianLefty]

Good of Netanyahu to not back down. He may lose now, but it is better to lose with conviction and courage than to surrender without taking a stand.

Nice to see it confirmed that the modern GOP is actually hostile to democracy.

[CumbrianLefty]

I think the problem of hyper-religious subgroups out-reproducing the rest of society is a problem that will eventually come for all First World societies, and Israel is simply ahead of the curve of the rest of us.

I don't see it. What groups in Christendom are really like the Haredim? The obvious examples are the Mennonites and Jehovah's Witnesses. Maybe you can make a case for Calvinists in the Netherlands, but I don't know to what extent they segregate themselves from broader society. There are pietistic Lutherans in Finland but they are a very small group. Presumably there are other groups in other countries that I can't name, but I am comfortable in saying that none of them are significant. Evangelicals in Brazil and elsewhere don't count because they are part of broader society. The same is true of Mormons. I know you said the First World specifically, but I will also add here that I'm not aware of any groups like this in the Islamic world.

It seems self-evident that religious people are more fertile than irreligious people, and perhaps in the long run this will lead to increased religiosity in society. Groups like the Haredim being the beneficiaries appears to be a specifically Jewish phenomenon.

To a certain degree, maybe.

There are a few places (notably Urk) with their own very distinctive social/political micro-climate.