Israel General Discussion: Annus Horribilis

[Torie]

It appears the government is moving back from the brink.

https://www.heritagefl.com/story/2023/03/17/news/justice-minister-hails-proposed-compromise-on-israeli-supreme-court-reform/17972.html

[Hnv1]

It appears the government is moving back from the brink.

https://www.heritagefl.com/story/2023/03/17/news/justice-minister-hails-proposed-compromise-on-israeli-supreme-court-reform/17972.html

That’s a faux compromise that is many way worse than their plan.

[Torie]

It appears the government is moving back from the brink.

https://www.heritagefl.com/story/2023/03/17/news/justice-minister-hails-proposed-compromise-on-israeli-supreme-court-reform/17972.html

That’s a faux compromise that is many way worse than their plan.

How so as in it's worse?

[Hnv1]

It appears the government is moving back from the brink.

https://www.heritagefl.com/story/2023/03/17/news/justice-minister-hails-proposed-compromise-on-israeli-supreme-court-reform/17972.html

That’s a faux compromise that is many way worse than their plan.

How so as in it's worse?

It completely politicise the judicial appointment process down to magistrate courts.
It reduces judicial review of legislation and administrative acts to bare minimum.
It has no overlapping mechanisms to preserve constitutionally guarded human rights laws
It completely removes any obligation by the government to seek any legal advice before implementing any sort of policy.


Rubbish.

Herzog’s platform wasn’t amazing but decent enough. This is a plan ordered by Levine and drafted by one imbecile (Albashan) and one vengeful senile (Friedman).

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Honestly one of the best and bravest pieces of journalism I've seen in a minute; it's a terrible situation all around in many ways but the IDF under this far-right government is (even more) out of control and acting with impunity. It's no wonder support for Israel is plummeting in the West and I say this as someone who use to get attacked by more left-wing people for defending Israel as a modern, liberal democracy a few years back but even that's untenable these days.

If the US was serious about human rights advocacy internationally all military aide would be cut asap.

Also, this insanity...

And yes I know the titles over the top, Hasan is just like that, but the actual interviews by Abby Martin are startling. Don't tell me if Arabs said this stuff (and groups like Hamas regularly do!) all the people who fiercely defend Israel wouldn't be hounding about it day and night. And people with these views now comprise the Israeli government.

This situation is so fck!ed on all sides.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Is this level of political intervention normal for an Israeli president?

It's not exactly regular, but in these unprecedented times it doesn't seem particularly surprising.

[DavidB.]

Isn't the number of protesters that voted for any of the government parties about zero?

[Pres Mike]

What was Herzog’s proposal? How is it better than the current government’s plan? How does it affect Netanyahu’s immunity?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Looks like the court nullification bill has been shelved for the time being. They're still moving ahead with some limited bills to limit the court's power to disqualify corrupt officials and the like.

Must say, Biden is really good at using political leverage behind the scenes. Obama's problem with his dealings with Bibi from the start was that he always went straight to the bully pulpit, which you can't do effectively with an ally with broad public support.

[Darthpi – Anti-Florida Activist]

Looks like the court nullification bill has been shelved for the time being. They're still moving ahead with some limited bills to limit the court's power to disqualify corrupt officials and the like.

Must say, Biden is really good at using political leverage behind the scenes. Obama's problem with his dealings with Bibi from the start was that he always went straight to the bully pulpit, which you can't do effectively with an ally with broad public support.

No, that's actually the opposite of effective use of US leverage. Gentle nudging without meaningful public criticism and changes in policy just means that things get worse somewhat less slowly and don't actually improve. And that's if you even believe the idea that the more drastic bill is shelved, which I have at least some doubts about.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Isn't the number of protesters that voted for any of the government parties about zero?

There's probably some that voted Likud. But it doesn't matter - nearly half the country thinks this "reform" is the end of democracy, and it includes refusing to serve in the IDF's reserve, not investing money in the country, possibly leaving. This protest movement is unprecedented in Israel's history. The government has no legitimacy to pass this.

Looks like the court nullification bill has been shelved for the time being. They're still moving ahead with some limited bills to limit the court's power to disqualify corrupt officials and the like.

Not really. The bill they're moving ahead with is the most important one that will end the separation of branches by giving the coalition practical control of judicial appointments, and no one said anything about shelving the rest. Nothing dramatic happened, idk where you got the news that the government retreated from this

[Torie]

Isn't the number of protesters that voted for any of the government parties about zero?

There's probably some that voted Likud. But it doesn't matter - nearly half the country thinks this "reform" is the end of democracy, and it includes refusing to serve in the IDF's reserve, not investing money in the country, possibly leaving. This protest movement is unprecedented in Israel's history. The government has no legitimacy to pass this.

Looks like the court nullification bill has been shelved for the time being. They're still moving ahead with some limited bills to limit the court's power to disqualify corrupt officials and the like.

Not really. The bill they're moving ahead with is the most important one that will end the separation of branches by giving the coalition practical control of judicial appointments, and no one said anything about shelving the rest. Nothing dramatic happened, idk where you got the news that the government retreated from this

The party in power usually has the whip hand in judicial appointments, no? The issue is whether the appointments occur in the ordinary course of vacancies, or you have a court expansion or packing scheme (which I vehemently oppose in the US), it seems to me. I appreciate Israel has its court at present very insulated, but moving more towards the US model would be hard to characterize as abandoning the rule of law per se.

I did look up how the UK does it, and it was incredibly complicated, so I don't think very replicable.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Isn't the number of protesters that voted for any of the government parties about zero?

There's probably some that voted Likud. But it doesn't matter - nearly half the country thinks this "reform" is the end of democracy, and it includes refusing to serve in the IDF's reserve, not investing money in the country, possibly leaving. This protest movement is unprecedented in Israel's history. The government has no legitimacy to pass this.

Looks like the court nullification bill has been shelved for the time being. They're still moving ahead with some limited bills to limit the court's power to disqualify corrupt officials and the like.

Not really. The bill they're moving ahead with is the most important one that will end the separation of branches by giving the coalition practical control of judicial appointments, and no one said anything about shelving the rest. Nothing dramatic happened, idk where you got the news that the government retreated from this

The party in power usually has the whip hand in judicial appointments, no? The issue is whether the appointments occur in the ordinary course of vacancies, or you have a court expansion or packing scheme (which I vehemently oppose in the US), it seems to me. I appreciate Israel has it's court at present very insulated, but moving more towards the US model would be hard to characterize as abandoning the rule of law per se.

I did look up how the UK does it, and it was incredibly complicated, so I don't think very replicable.

In Israel there's a committee made up of 2 MKs, 2 Ministers, 3 judges and 2 bar association representatives. You need 7 votes to appoint judges, so both the coalition and judges have a veto.

It's certainly fair to make some changes, but the current system is fairly balanced. The new government legislation would change it to give the coalition an absolute majority (with some quirks). This ends the separation of branches. It's not comparable to the US system because in the US there's a strong separation between the legislative and executive branches.

Another issue is that this legislation will also let the coalition decide which judge becomes chief justice (rather than seniority). It's terrible on its own because it means Supreme Court judges will need to be liked by the government. In the US, once a judge is appointed they don't need to care about the government or congress.

[Torie]

Isn't the number of protesters that voted for any of the government parties about zero?

There's probably some that voted Likud. But it doesn't matter - nearly half the country thinks this "reform" is the end of democracy, and it includes refusing to serve in the IDF's reserve, not investing money in the country, possibly leaving. This protest movement is unprecedented in Israel's history. The government has no legitimacy to pass this.

Looks like the court nullification bill has been shelved for the time being. They're still moving ahead with some limited bills to limit the court's power to disqualify corrupt officials and the like.

Not really. The bill they're moving ahead with is the most important one that will end the separation of branches by giving the coalition practical control of judicial appointments, and no one said anything about shelving the rest. Nothing dramatic happened, idk where you got the news that the government retreated from this

The party in power usually has the whip hand in judicial appointments, no? The issue is whether the appointments occur in the ordinary course of vacancies, or you have a court expansion or packing scheme (which I vehemently oppose in the US), it seems to me. I appreciate Israel has it's court at present very insulated, but moving more towards the US model would be hard to characterize as abandoning the rule of law per se.

I did look up how the UK does it, and it was incredibly complicated, so I don't think very replicable.

In Israel there's a committee made up of 2 MKs, 2 Ministers, 3 judges and 2 bar association representatives. You need 7 votes to appoint judges, so both the coalition and judges have a veto.

It's certainly fair to make some changes, but the current system is fairly balanced. The new government legislation would change it to give the coalition an absolute majority (with some quirks). This ends the separation of branches. It's not comparable to the US system because in the US there's a strong separation between the legislative and executive branches.

Another issue is that this legislation will also let the coalition decide which judge becomes chief justice (rather than seniority). It's terrible on its own because it means Supreme Court judges will need to be liked by the government. In the US, once a judge is appointed they don't need to care about the government or congress.

The chief justice in the US does not have much more power than the rest (just the power to assign cases if in the majority). Does the chief justice in Israel have so much more power than the rest on the bench that it is worth whoring for?

You mention the lack of separation of powers. Can parliament overturn a judicial decision on a vote? Does Israel have a Constitution that you need a supra majority to change?

[America Needs R'hllor]

Isn't the number of protesters that voted for any of the government parties about zero?

There's probably some that voted Likud. But it doesn't matter - nearly half the country thinks this "reform" is the end of democracy, and it includes refusing to serve in the IDF's reserve, not investing money in the country, possibly leaving. This protest movement is unprecedented in Israel's history. The government has no legitimacy to pass this.

Looks like the court nullification bill has been shelved for the time being. They're still moving ahead with some limited bills to limit the court's power to disqualify corrupt officials and the like.

Not really. The bill they're moving ahead with is the most important one that will end the separation of branches by giving the coalition practical control of judicial appointments, and no one said anything about shelving the rest. Nothing dramatic happened, idk where you got the news that the government retreated from this

The party in power usually has the whip hand in judicial appointments, no? The issue is whether the appointments occur in the ordinary course of vacancies, or you have a court expansion or packing scheme (which I vehemently oppose in the US), it seems to me. I appreciate Israel has it's court at present very insulated, but moving more towards the US model would be hard to characterize as abandoning the rule of law per se.

I did look up how the UK does it, and it was incredibly complicated, so I don't think very replicable.

In Israel there's a committee made up of 2 MKs, 2 Ministers, 3 judges and 2 bar association representatives. You need 7 votes to appoint judges, so both the coalition and judges have a veto.

It's certainly fair to make some changes, but the current system is fairly balanced. The new government legislation would change it to give the coalition an absolute majority (with some quirks). This ends the separation of branches. It's not comparable to the US system because in the US there's a strong separation between the legislative and executive branches.

Another issue is that this legislation will also let the coalition decide which judge becomes chief justice (rather than seniority). It's terrible on its own because it means Supreme Court judges will need to be liked by the government. In the US, once a judge is appointed they don't need to care about the government or congress.

The chief justice in the US does not have much more power than the rest (just the power to assign cases if in the majority). Does the chief justice in Israel have so much more power than the rest on the bench that it is worth whoring for?

You mention the lack of separation of powers. Can parliament overturn a judicial decision on a vote? Does Israel have a Constitution that you need a supra majority to change?

I'm not an expert, but the chief justice in Israel does have a seat in the judge appointment committee (under the "reform" too), and importantly, they get to assign judges to cases where a full composition isn't needed.

Israel doesn't have a constitution. There are "basic laws" that don't require a supermajority to legislate or change, and they are meant to serve as a quasi constitution. Another component of the "reform" is to let the coalition overturn a judicial decision.

[CumbrianLefty]

Israel doesn't have a constitution

Ah, didn't know this.

(though given the British influence originally, maybe not totally surprising)

[Angel of Death]

What are the actual practical implications of the repeal of the 2005 Disengagement Law?

[Hnv1]

Isn't the number of protesters that voted for any of the government parties about zero?

There's probably some that voted Likud. But it doesn't matter - nearly half the country thinks this "reform" is the end of democracy, and it includes refusing to serve in the IDF's reserve, not investing money in the country, possibly leaving. This protest movement is unprecedented in Israel's history. The government has no legitimacy to pass this.

Looks like the court nullification bill has been shelved for the time being. They're still moving ahead with some limited bills to limit the court's power to disqualify corrupt officials and the like.

Not really. The bill they're moving ahead with is the most important one that will end the separation of branches by giving the coalition practical control of judicial appointments, and no one said anything about shelving the rest. Nothing dramatic happened, idk where you got the news that the government retreated from this

The party in power usually has the whip hand in judicial appointments, no? The issue is whether the appointments occur in the ordinary course of vacancies, or you have a court expansion or packing scheme (which I vehemently oppose in the US), it seems to me. I appreciate Israel has it's court at present very insulated, but moving more towards the US model would be hard to characterize as abandoning the rule of law per se.

I did look up how the UK does it, and it was incredibly complicated, so I don't think very replicable.

In Israel there's a committee made up of 2 MKs, 2 Ministers, 3 judges and 2 bar association representatives. You need 7 votes to appoint judges, so both the coalition and judges have a veto.

It's certainly fair to make some changes, but the current system is fairly balanced. The new government legislation would change it to give the coalition an absolute majority (with some quirks). This ends the separation of branches. It's not comparable to the US system because in the US there's a strong separation between the legislative and executive branches.

Another issue is that this legislation will also let the coalition decide which judge becomes chief justice (rather than seniority). It's terrible on its own because it means Supreme Court judges will need to be liked by the government. In the US, once a judge is appointed they don't need to care about the government or congress.

The chief justice in the US does not have much more power than the rest (just the power to assign cases if in the majority). Does the chief justice in Israel have so much more power than the rest on the bench that it is worth whoring for?

You mention the lack of separation of powers. Can parliament overturn a judicial decision on a vote? Does Israel have a Constitution that you need a supra majority to change?

I'm not an expert, but the chief justice in Israel does have a seat in the judge appointment committee (under the "reform" too), and importantly, they get to assign judges to cases where a full composition isn't needed.

Israel doesn't have a constitution. There are "basic laws" that don't require a supermajority to legislate or change, and they are meant to serve as a quasi constitution. Another component of the "reform" is to let the coalition overturn a judicial decision.

Some of the basic laws do require special majorities to alter but this is besides the point. I also think Israel has a constitution simply not one unified document.

This is besides the point. The truth is it doesn’t matter how you phrase constitutional norms or design institutional checks and balances; if the judges presiding are partisan quacks they’ll interpret anything to the benefit of the party. That’s what Likud want politicised and docile judges.
There are plenty of very good right wing judges in the system. They don’t care about promoting them, they want the partisan hacks in.

[Hnv1]

What are the actual practical implications of the repeal of the 2005 Disengagement Law?

Thus far it was illegal for Israelis to enter the areas left in 2005, now that the legal ban is lifted illegal settlements could pop, and in due time they will be legalised

[America Needs R'hllor]

Sarah Netanyahu in a statement: calling for everyone to calm down and reach a compromise.
Netanyahu will give a special statement in 2 hours.
Defense Minister Galant calling to halt the legislation.
Something is brewing ☕ but I'm not sure what exactly

[America Needs R'hllor]

Sarah Netanyahu in a statement: calling for everyone to calm down and reach a compromise.
Netanyahu will give a special statement in 2 hours.
Defense Minister Galant calling to halt the legislation.
Something is brewing ☕ but I'm not sure what exactly

Netanyahu summoned Galant, who's apparently gathering a group of MKs to support him, for a meeting - I'm increasingly thinking Galant is acting alone.

[Hnv1]

Bibi’s not backing down here. Levine has him in the groin

[America Needs R'hllor]

Bibi’s not backing down here. Levine has him in the groin

War it is. What do you think about the chances the SC overturns the judiciary committee law? My lawyer friend seems to think the chances are low.

[Torie]

I guess Biden's call did not deflect Bibi from destiny.

https://www.axios.com/2023/03/19/biden-netanyahu-judicial-overhaul-phone-call

[Angel of Death]

The term "constitutional crisis" tends to get brandished around too easily, but even in the most rancorous political disputes, it almost never applies. Here, however, it would be a textbook example, if it were to reach the point where people are effectively forced to choose which branch of government to follow.