I&I/TIPP: Voters turning to Republicans, 57% majority support building wall

[Alben Barkley]

Dems have gone wacko on borders. Had they simply held steady with the Obama policies none of this would be happening, but of course the elites need cheap labor.

I have to say you're pretty good on other issues so your consistent anti-immigration beliefs are always very disappointing.

I'm not even slightly anti-immigration. My views on the matter match up very well with Obama's 2008 campaign, or with western European social democratic parties.

So nearly 15 years out of date?

There is no expiration date on political positions. The mere fact that something was a consensus view 15 years ago does not make it "outdated" today.

That is true... But also you don't actually agree with that view, as we both know. You are pro-immigration if not open borders.

[John Dule]

Dems have gone wacko on borders. Had they simply held steady with the Obama policies none of this would be happening, but of course the elites need cheap labor.

I have to say you're pretty good on other issues so your consistent anti-immigration beliefs are always very disappointing.

I'm not even slightly anti-immigration. My views on the matter match up very well with Obama's 2008 campaign, or with western European social democratic parties.

So nearly 15 years out of date?

There is no expiration date on political positions. The mere fact that something was a consensus view 15 years ago does not make it "outdated" today.

That is true... But also you don't actually agree with that view, as we both know. You are pro-immigration.

Yeah, I support faster citizenship for immigrants, especially skilled ones. But from what I've read here, Horus isn't "anti-immigration." Reasonable people can disagree on this issue.

[Alben Barkley]

Dems have gone wacko on borders. Had they simply held steady with the Obama policies none of this would be happening, but of course the elites need cheap labor.

I have to say you're pretty good on other issues so your consistent anti-immigration beliefs are always very disappointing.

I'm not even slightly anti-immigration. My views on the matter match up very well with Obama's 2008 campaign, or with western European social democratic parties.

So nearly 15 years out of date?

There is no expiration date on political positions. The mere fact that something was a consensus view 15 years ago does not make it "outdated" today.

That is true... But also you don't actually agree with that view, as we both know. You are pro-immigration.

Yeah, I support faster citizenship for immigrants, especially skilled ones. But from what I've read here, Horus isn't "anti-immigration." Reasonable people can disagree on this issue.

I don't disagree but Horus has put out a lot of "concerned" rhetoric about immigration which implies to me he'd be happy to throw immigrants under the bus if it meant winning some elections and maybe even if it lost some elections for the Democrats.

Reasonable people can disagree on a lot of issues, including this one. I don't say Horus is an unreasonable man for his view, but I do think there are lots of legitimate grounds to critique it on. From the perspectives of logic, morality, and electability alike. Ferguson maybe went with an illogical critique by claiming Horus's view was "outdated," but again there are PLENTY of logical grounds to attack the Obama 2008 view even which Horus claims to hold on. As I said before, this country could easily take a billion immigrants and would be stronger for it, not weaker. Most anti-immigration rhetoric is pure fear-mongering that's not at all based in reality or reason.

[Mr. Ukucasha]

The idea that a border wall would make any noticable dent in undocumented border crossings is ludicrous.

lmao

lol the chart literally shows it dropping substantially before construction began. This only proves the point that the fence has not had that much of an impact.

[Alben Barkley]

The idea that a border wall would make any noticable dent in undocumented border crossings is ludicrous.

lmao

lol the chart literally shows it dropping substantially before the fence was constructed.
 

And again, rising back to about the same level right when Trump was elected!

[Joe Republic]

I advise taking a click around that random right-wing blog linked in the OP for some more lolworthy "polls" and commentary.  Entertaining stuff!  Thanks for sharing, CitizenQAnon!

I guess it's helpful to check in and see what the right is currently being lied to about.

[Mr. Ukucasha]

The idea that a border wall would make any noticable dent in undocumented border crossings is ludicrous.

lmao

LOL this proves the exact opposite of what you think it proves. The graph shows that apprehensions fell to their lowest level before fence construction even began, then stagnated and moderately rose afterward. This literally proves that fences don't have an impact.

Moreover, the green bars begin when fence construction began, not when it was completed, which makes your post even worse.

Facts don't care about your feelings.  

[DaleCooper]

Dems have gone wacko on borders. Had they simply held steady with the Obama policies none of this would be happening, but of course the elites need cheap labor.

I have to say you're pretty good on other issues so your consistent anti-immigration beliefs are always very disappointing.

I'm not even slightly anti-immigration. My views on the matter match up very well with Obama's 2008 campaign, or with western European social democratic parties.

So nearly 15 years out of date?

His sensible, centrist views on immigration helped him win a landslide victory.

What about those policies did you disagree with?

Immigration was not a central campaign issue in 2008. And in any case, we're talking about the morality of the policies in and of themselves, not their electability.

What about his immigration platform did you find immoral?

And electability matters a whole hell of a lot. If Democrats had moderated just a tad on immigration, we very well may not have ended up with Trump, who did more to hurt immigrants than any president in recent memory. I get that you're extremely idealistic, but this is just a fact.

Democrats think words are just as, if not more important than actions. They'd rather lose than change what they say.

[jojoju1998]

Dems have gone wacko on borders. Had they simply held steady with the Obama policies none of this would be happening, but of course the elites need cheap labor.

I have to say you're pretty good on other issues so your consistent anti-immigration beliefs are always very disappointing.

I'm not even slightly anti-immigration. My views on the matter match up very well with Obama's 2008 campaign, or with western European social democratic parties.

So nearly 15 years out of date?

His sensible, centrist views on immigration helped him win a landslide victory.

What about those policies did you disagree with?

Immigration was not a central campaign issue in 2008. And in any case, we're talking about the morality of the policies in and of themselves, not their electability.

What about his immigration platform did you find immoral?

And electability matters a whole hell of a lot. If Democrats had moderated just a tad on immigration, we very well may not have ended up with Trump, who did more to hurt immigrants than any president in recent memory. I get that you're extremely idealistic, but this is just a fact.

Democrats think words are just as, if not more important than actions. They'd rather lose than change what they say.

Dale, Democrats happily passed a Bipartisan Solid Immigration Reform Bill in 2013; and then it got shot down by the Republican House.

[Ferguson97]

Dems have gone wacko on borders. Had they simply held steady with the Obama policies none of this would be happening, but of course the elites need cheap labor.

I have to say you're pretty good on other issues so your consistent anti-immigration beliefs are always very disappointing.

I'm not even slightly anti-immigration. My views on the matter match up very well with Obama's 2008 campaign, or with western European social democratic parties.

So nearly 15 years out of date?

There is no expiration date on political positions. The mere fact that something was a consensus view 15 years ago does not make it "outdated" today.

That is true... But also you don't actually agree with that view, as we both know. You are pro-immigration.

Yeah, I support faster citizenship for immigrants, especially skilled ones. But from what I've read here, Horus isn't "anti-immigration." Reasonable people can disagree on this issue.

Reasonable people can disagree, but Horus is anti-immigration. Unless you would only define unreasonable views as "anti-immigration", which would just be a semantical disagreement.

Horus's views on immigration are closer to the median 2022 Republican than the median 2022 Democrat.

[Horus]

Dems have gone wacko on borders. Had they simply held steady with the Obama policies none of this would be happening, but of course the elites need cheap labor.

I have to say you're pretty good on other issues so your consistent anti-immigration beliefs are always very disappointing.

I'm not even slightly anti-immigration. My views on the matter match up very well with Obama's 2008 campaign, or with western European social democratic parties.

So nearly 15 years out of date?

There is no expiration date on political positions. The mere fact that something was a consensus view 15 years ago does not make it "outdated" today.

That is true... But also you don't actually agree with that view, as we both know. You are pro-immigration.

Yeah, I support faster citizenship for immigrants, especially skilled ones. But from what I've read here, Horus isn't "anti-immigration." Reasonable people can disagree on this issue.

Reasonable people can disagree, but Horus is anti-immigration. Unless you would only define unreasonable views as "anti-immigration", which would just be a semantical disagreement.

Horus's views on immigration are closer to the median 2022 Republican than the median 2022 Democrat.

How do you define anti immigration?

Also you still haven't answered my question about what was so immoral about Obama's 2008 immigration platform.

[Person Man]

How would you describe this platform

- Keep DACA going
- Build the Wall
- Points-based immigration system, but allow families and allow the points system to handicap for overcoming adversity. My roommate should have gone to Princeton instead of Public School and only didn't go because he couldn't get funding. His family lives in Bengaluru on 300-400 a month.
- No ending of Birth Rights citizenship
- Let states decide on refugee numbers (constitutional?)
- Tacitly agree to some sort of large scale mass-deportation of trespassers
- Reemphasize controlling the refugee at the source through foreign policy and intervention

[jojoju1998]

How would you describe this platform

- Keep DACA going
- Build the Wall
- Points-based immigration system, but allow families and allow the points system to handicap for overcoming adversity. My roommate should have gone to Princeton instead of Public School and only didn't go because he couldn't get funding. His family lives in Bengaluru on 300-400 a month.
- No ending of Birth Rights citizenship
- Let states decide on refugee numbers (constitutional?)
- Tacitly agree to some sort of large scale mass-deportation of trespassers
- Reemphasize controlling the refugee at the source through foreign policy and intervention

Practical. I would go for the plan. In fact, it was the 2013 bill.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Dems have gone wacko on borders. Had they simply held steady with the Obama policies none of this would be happening, but of course the elites need cheap labor.

I have to say you're pretty good on other issues so your consistent anti-immigration beliefs are always very disappointing.

I'm not even slightly anti-immigration. My views on the matter match up very well with Obama's 2008 campaign, or with western European social democratic parties.

So nearly 15 years out of date?

There is no expiration date on political positions. The mere fact that something was a consensus view 15 years ago does not make it "outdated" today.

That is true... But also you don't actually agree with that view, as we both know. You are pro-immigration.

Yeah, I support faster citizenship for immigrants, especially skilled ones. But from what I've read here, Horus isn't "anti-immigration." Reasonable people can disagree on this issue.

Reasonable people can disagree, but Horus is anti-immigration. Unless you would only define unreasonable views as "anti-immigration", which would just be a semantical disagreement.

Horus's views on immigration are closer to the median 2022 Republican than the median 2022 Democrat.

Immigration is not an issue where people get naturally more liberal over time , and saying so is ludicrous. The US probably was at its most liberal on immigration during the Gilded Age which was a pretty conservative political period for the US and most restrictive from 1924-1965 which encompasses the vast majority of the new deal era(yes I know it was passed pre new deal but still ).

[Ferguson97]

Immigration is not an issue where people get naturally more liberal over time , and saying so is ludicrous.

The data disagrees with you.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Immigration is not an issue where people get naturally more liberal over time , and saying so is ludicrous.

The data disagrees with you.

1. Issue polls are extremely unreliable to use and public policy > attitudes anyway . Same reason I say the 1980s were more conservative than the 1950s

2. Immigration policy yes is more liberal today than it was in the 1950s but more restrictive than the 1880s/1890s

[Person Man]

Immigration is not an issue where people get naturally more liberal over time , and saying so is ludicrous.

The data disagrees with you.

1. Issue polls are extremely unreliable to use and public policy > attitudes anyway . Same reason I say the 1980s were more conservative than the 1950s

2. Immigration policy yes is more liberal today than it was in the 1950s but more restrictive than the 1880s/1890s

When did we get the Exclusion Acts? I know the 1924 Immigration Reform laws basically gave us Operation Wetback in the 50s, where the authorities basically kidnapped a million migrants, beat them up, and roadtripped them to random points on the other side of the border.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Immigration is not an issue where people get naturally more liberal over time , and saying so is ludicrous.

The data disagrees with you.

1. Issue polls are extremely unreliable to use and public policy > attitudes anyway . Same reason I say the 1980s were more conservative than the 1950s

2. Immigration policy yes is more liberal today than it was in the 1950s but more restrictive than the 1880s/1890s

When did we get the Exclusion Acts? I know the 1924 Immigration Reform laws basically gave us Operation Wetback in the 50s, where the authorities basically kidnapped a million migrants, beat them up, and roadtripped them to random points on the other side of the border.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/immigrant-population-over-time

Keep in mind the first commercial plane took off in 1914 so that shows you how liberal US policy on immigration just was in those days

https://www.space.com/16657-worlds-first-commercial-airline-the-greatest-moments-in-flight.html