Euthanasia Is Now A Leading Cause Of Death In Canada

[Benjamin Frank]

Four points

Three of which are plausible counterarguments, but the post as a whole is undercut by the fact that you're treating the Americans in this thread solely as exemplars of our nationwide political culture rather than as individuals. That's fallacious in several different ways, without even getting into the fact that there are British and French/Italian citizens in this thread criticizing Canadian policy as well.

I was actually looking at a number of the people here who 'recommended' the initial comment calling this 'evil.'

I'm not going to call anybody out by name, which I think is understandable. Fair point on the rest.

However, let's get down to specifics. I have a friend online who is in terrible pain from injury.

I don't know enough as I should as to what the situation is like in Canada, but this is the situation in the United States:

Your mind can be trained to control chronic pain. But it will cost you

https://www.statnews.com/2017/05/30/chronic-pain-management/

The program is not cheap. It costs $37,000 to $42,000 for three weeks. Gatchel, who is affiliated with several pain management programs in Texas, said that price is an “exception to the norm,” and less intense versions of the treatment can run between $4,000 and $10,000.

An estimated 20.4% (50.0 million) of U.S. adults had chronic pain and 8.0% of U.S. adults (19.6 million) had high-impact chronic pain, with higher prevalences of both chronic pain and high-impact chronic pain reported among women, older adults, previously but not currently employed adults, adults living in poverty, .

At, $5,000 per treatment, that is nearly $100 billion to pay for the 19.6 million with 'high impact chronic pain', with the 'chronic pain' that is $250 billion.

How many Americans are actually willing to pay for this?

If you claim that MAID for the disabled is 'evil' because care can be available, unless they can pay for it themselves, it generally isn't.  I should know more about Canada, but I'm pretty sure it generally isn't available here either.

Beyond this, as imperfect as pain killer alternatives are, at the same time as MAID became law in Canada, partly due to pressure from the United States, stronger pain killing opioids have been greatly to entirely restricted. In both Canada and the United States, we claim to care about the disabled, those in chronic pain... except we don't.

[afleitch]

It's 3.3% of all registered deaths as of 2021. It's just over 4% in the Netherlands (2019)

There are twice as many accidental deaths.

69% of medically assisted deaths are amongst cancer sufferers.

The average age is 75; 7 years lower than average life expectancy.

I don't think this is particularly out of the ordinary.

[afleitch]

To expand upon this.

If it's disproportionally the elderly with terminal illness...then that's evidence that it's being granted in line with what advocates intended. It's an end of life choice near the end of life.

Only 1.5% of assisted deaths in 2020 were people under the age of 45. Not one was under 18. The claims that it would draw the young, the otherwise able bodied, or the disabled but able minded ending their life under social duress with doctors signing it off without due attention is not really what's happening here.

[Hatman 🍁]

I've always wondered why we as a society believe that putting down an injured animal is considered humane, but letting a person make that decision for themselves is somehow abhorrent. 

[Хahar 🤔]

https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-toronto-7c631558a457188d2bd2b5cfd360a867

— Unlike Belgium and the Netherlands, where euthanasia has been legal for two decades, Canada doesn’t have monthly commissions to review potentially troubling cases, although it does publish yearly reports of euthanasia trends.

— Canada is the only country that allows nurse practitioners, not just doctors, to end patients’ lives. Medical authorities in its two largest provinces, Ontario and Quebec, explicitly instruct doctors not to indicate on death certificates if people died from euthanasia.

— Belgian doctors are advised to avoid mentioning euthanasia to patients since it could be misinterpreted as medical advice. The Australian state of Victoria forbids doctors from raising euthanasia with patients. There are no such restrictions in Canada. The association of Canadian health professionals who provide euthanasia tells physicians and nurses to inform patients if they might qualify to be killed, as one of their possible “clinical care options.”

— Canadian patients are not required to have exhausted all treatment alternatives before seeking euthanasia, as is the case in Belgium and the Netherlands.

The comparison to abortion is instructive here. Canada is famously the only country in the world with no legal abortion restrictions whatsoever. In practice, this works because medical boards have their own non-legislative restrictions and in practice difficult cases are outsourced to the United States. As is often the case in Canada, the politically efficacious solution is to not talk about it.

That seems to be what is happening here, too. The unstated assumption is that rather than using the political process to work out the sort of restrictions and regulations on euthanasia that exist in other countries, Canadian politicians can leave the tough decisions to non-political actors. Most Americans (and, I would imagine, most people in general) would find this abhorrent, but it does mean that nobody in particular can be held accountable and this never becomes an issue in the Canadian media.

[_.]

Progressive moment

I've always wondered why we as a society believe that putting down an injured animal is considered humane, but letting a person make that decision for themselves is somehow abhorrent. 

Because suicide is immoral (in my opinion and in most people's opinion).
It's really that simple. You all on the progressive liberal side don't think it's immoral.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Progressive moment

I've always wondered why we as a society believe that putting down an injured animal is considered humane, but letting a person make that decision for themselves is somehow abhorrent.  

Because suicide is immoral (in my opinion and in most people's opinion).
It's really that simple. You all on the progressive liberal side don't think it's immoral.

Yeah, letting someone die a quick death through assisted suicide instead of a slow, agonizing death through a terminal disease is not immoral to any sane person. I hate whats happening in Canada because its f**ked up disabled people are being pushed into euthanasia when its not warranted because killing them is less expensive than caring for them, not because I have some sick desire to force people to die in horrible pain.

[Santander]

I warned about this when it happened... the cancer will spread south of the border.

[_.]

Yeah, letting someone die a quick death through assisted suicide instead of a slow, agonizing death through a terminal disease is not immoral to any sane person.

Nah it actually is immoral to a lot of people. People see it as suicide, and a lot of people don't like that even if you gotta go through pain. 30% of Americans in fact (100 million people) and definitely much more throughout the rest of the world since America is very liberal on these issues.

Me personally, I get my morality from my religion, which prohibits suicide no matter what, so for me this isn't really a moral dillemma. Yeah it's better to struggle through a crippling disease and die naturally than a quick painless death. We belong to God and to him we will return.

This whole euthanasia thing, just being brutally honest with what I think it is I'll just say I think that's a pitiful move, showing you're scared of pain and can't handle it. This is just the hedonists chasing instant pleasure and gratification no matter where they are and literally choosing to die instead of facing pain. Pathetic!

If I get a terminal disease that can't be cured Imma go through it and face it like a man instead of killing myself. My grandma was able to do that and she did for 30 years and she still was able to find joy in her life. I look up to that

But I got less respect if you kill yourself willingly. That's real cowardly in my opinion (and of course a lot of people will disagree, some people are a product of their environment where they've been raised to think this stuff is acceptable)

I hate whats happening in Canada because its f**ked up disabled people are being pushed into euthanasia when its not warranted because killing them is less expensive than caring for them, not some sick desire to force people to die in horrible pain.

This is just a side effect of being in a society that legalizes euthanasia.
It allows for this kind of more clearly depraved stuff to pass much easier.

Slippery slope, but not a fallacy. Just slippery slope.

When a society stops valuing life you gotta be prepared for the consequences bro

[MaxQue]

Yeah, letting someone die a quick death through assisted suicide instead of a slow, agonizing death through a terminal disease is not immoral to any sane person.

Nah it actually is immoral to a lot of people. People see it as suicide, and a lot of people don't like that even if you gotta go through pain. 30% of Americans in fact (100 million people) and definitely much more throughout the rest of the world since America is very liberal on these issues.

Me personally, I get my morality from my religion, which prohibits suicide no matter what, so for me this isn't really a moral dillemma. Yeah it's better to struggle through a crippling disease and die naturally than a quick painless death. We belong to God and to him we will return.

This whole euthanasia thing, just being brutally honest with what I think it is I'll just say I think that's a pitiful move, showing you're scared of pain and can't handle it. This is just the hedonists chasing instant pleasure and gratification no matter where they are and literally choosing to die instead of facing pain. Pathetic!

If I get a terminal disease that can't be cured Imma go through it and face it like a man instead of killing myself. My grandma was able to do that and she did for 30 years and she still was able to find joy in her life. I look up to that

But I got less respect if you kill yourself willingly. That's real cowardly in my opinion (and of course a lot of people will disagree, some people are a product of their environment where they've been raised to think this stuff is acceptable)

I hate whats happening in Canada because its f**ked up disabled people are being pushed into euthanasia when its not warranted because killing them is less expensive than caring for them, not some sick desire to force people to die in horrible pain.

This is just a side effect of being in a society that legalizes euthanasia.
It allows for this kind of more clearly depraved stuff to pass much easier.

Slippery slope, but not a fallacy. Just slippery slope.

When a society stops valuing life you gotta be prepared for the consequences bro

There is no logic in this post, just some nonsensical 'my religious book says something and it's very important I impose it on everyone else'.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Yeah, letting someone die a quick death through assisted suicide instead of a slow, agonizing death through a terminal disease is not immoral to any sane person.

Nah it actually is immoral to a lot of people. People see it as suicide, and a lot of people don't like that even if you gotta go through pain. 30% of Americans in fact (100 million people) and definitely much more throughout the rest of the world since America is very liberal on these issues.

Me personally, I get my morality from my religion, which prohibits suicide no matter what, so for me this isn't really a moral dillemma. Yeah it's better to struggle through a crippling disease and die naturally than a quick painless death. We belong to God and to him we will return.

This whole euthanasia thing, just being brutally honest with what I think it is I'll just say I think that's a pitiful move, showing you're scared of pain and can't handle it. This is just the hedonists chasing instant pleasure and gratification no matter where they are and literally choosing to die instead of facing pain. Pathetic!

If I get a terminal disease that can't be cured Imma go through it and face it like a man instead of killing myself. My grandma was able to do that and she did for 30 years and she still was able to find joy in her life. I look up to that

But I got less respect if you kill yourself willingly. That's real cowardly in my opinion (and of course a lot of people will disagree, some people are a product of their environment where they've been raised to think this stuff is acceptable)

I hate whats happening in Canada because its f**ked up disabled people are being pushed into euthanasia when its not warranted because killing them is less expensive than caring for them, not some sick desire to force people to die in horrible pain.

This is just a side effect of being in a society that legalizes euthanasia.
It allows for this kind of more clearly depraved stuff to pass much easier.

Slippery slope, but not a fallacy. Just slippery slope.

When a society stops valuing life you gotta be prepared for the consequences bro

I'm not your "bro", friend.

[_.]

Yeah, letting someone die a quick death through assisted suicide instead of a slow, agonizing death through a terminal disease is not immoral to any sane person.

Nah it actually is immoral to a lot of people. People see it as suicide, and a lot of people don't like that even if you gotta go through pain. 30% of Americans in fact (100 million people) and definitely much more throughout the rest of the world since America is very liberal on these issues.

Me personally, I get my morality from my religion, which prohibits suicide no matter what, so for me this isn't really a moral dillemma. Yeah it's better to struggle through a crippling disease and die naturally than a quick painless death. We belong to God and to him we will return.

This whole euthanasia thing, just being brutally honest with what I think it is I'll just say I think that's a pitiful move, showing you're scared of pain and can't handle it. This is just the hedonists chasing instant pleasure and gratification no matter where they are and literally choosing to die instead of facing pain. Pathetic!

If I get a terminal disease that can't be cured Imma go through it and face it like a man instead of killing myself. My grandma was able to do that and she did for 30 years and she still was able to find joy in her life. I look up to that

But I got less respect if you kill yourself willingly. That's real cowardly in my opinion (and of course a lot of people will disagree, some people are a product of their environment where they've been raised to think this stuff is acceptable)

I hate whats happening in Canada because its f**ked up disabled people are being pushed into euthanasia when its not warranted because killing them is less expensive than caring for them, not some sick desire to force people to die in horrible pain.

This is just a side effect of being in a society that legalizes euthanasia.
It allows for this kind of more clearly depraved stuff to pass much easier.

Slippery slope, but not a fallacy. Just slippery slope.

When a society stops valuing life you gotta be prepared for the consequences bro

There is no logic in this post, just some nonsensical 'my religious book says something and it's very important I impose it on everyone else'.

Yes just like you want to impose your liberal morality, which was created by a bunch of old white psuedo philosophers who wrote books and didn't understand life, on everyone else by allowing people to kill themselves.

Of course this is a good question, should you impose morality. And it's tempting to let everyone who wants to kill themselves kill themselves. Hey, they don't want to be here. Let's get rid of them! I'm not at risk of killing myself!

Euthanasia, though is not your run of the mill issue. This "euthanasia" is a euphemism for killing yourself, suicide. The big euthanasiasts and liberals use these fancy marketing and change the words to make it sound appealing to the broader audiences.

I know for a fact there are tons of people who want to kill themselves, who get better. They realize hey I'm glad I'm alive, I don't want to kill myself. Letting them kill themselves, this is just showing that you don't believe they have the power to get better. It's such an insult and great disservice. You are encouraging death and sadness.

Another thing this does is it lets society know that it is acceptable to kill yourself. It inspires future generations and tells them to run away from the pain, not to be perserverant. It shows that you spend your life chasing pleasure and running away from pain. It's a sad life to live, and societies die like this.

In fact, Canada's already seeing problems. Their hospitals are literally valuing their finances more than the lives of the people inside. They push them to euthanasia. This is the fate of a society who lets people kill themselves. This hopefully will take care of itself within some time, it's not a sustainable model. But you see what letting people kill yourself does to a society.

My grandma didn't shrink away from the pain. She didn't run from the grind. What would that have told her children and grandchildren? She wants us to think she's a failure who can't handle pain and kills themselves when they get pain? No. She perservered through the pain for decades knowing that she would come to an end and showed inspiration. This is building character. This is something all the suicidalists could never do, in fact some of you all kill yourselves even when you don't have pain.

Once again, no words to describe this. Pathetic.

[Boobs]

You should stick to recommending everyone’s posts, because when you open your mouth… well… There are no words to describe it. Pathetic.

[Torie]

A law professor at my law school became famous for an article he wrote from a non-religious perspective that legalizing euthanasia would open a Pandora's Box: granting the right to die would morph into the duty to die, in the sense that there would be social pressure to effect a final exit to save money and relieve the burdens on the family care givers and so forth.

My thought at the time  is that sometimes there is merit in leaving things kind of messy. Perhaps euthanasia should be illegal, but in reality it happens, and punishing people for it does not happen much as law enforcement looks the other way.

My grandfather was an MD and killed himself with a massive morphine overdose to end it all when he had terminal cancer, and my Dad did the same to his mother who had the same condition and was in pain. The MD involved was a personal friend of my Dad and understood what had happened, and nothing was said. In both cases the site was in a private home. You lose control when in a hospital.

[Devout Centrist]

If I get a terminal disease that can't be cured Imma go through it and face it like a man instead of killing myself.

It is generally in poor taste to tempt fate like this.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Progressive moment

I've always wondered why we as a society believe that putting down an injured animal is considered humane, but letting a person make that decision for themselves is somehow abhorrent. 

Because suicide is immoral (in my opinion and in most people's opinion).
It's really that simple. You all on the progressive liberal side don't think it's immoral.

     What I find instructive is the huge gap between people who accept euthanasia but not suicide in general. It speaks volumes about how much people trust medical professionals, and the stories emerging about pressure being put on patients to die when the costs of their care become too great indicate that that trust is not well-deserved. Speaking for myself, my distrust in the medical profession goes back many years, so this sort of thing basically confirms what I already knew.

[Del Tachi]

I would rather die whenever I want and peacefully than suffering slowly at a hospital when I’m at a older age.

No one makes you die in a hospital.  You can choose a dignified death at home. 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There are specific reasons for Concerns about how this policy is being implemented in Canada that are quite separate from the wider issue of assisted suicide and/or euthanasia, and I think we would be better discussing those that getting involved in emotive arguments about the general principles.

[_.]

You should stick to recommending everyone’s posts, because when you open your mouth… well… There are no words to describe it. Pathetic.

Cope, you were too scared to even notify me. 

Can't hide though

You have an actual argument? At least Ferguson brings those

[Boobs]

You should stick to recommending everyone’s posts, because when you open your mouth… well… There are no words to describe it. Pathetic.

Cope, you were too scared to even notify me. 

Can't hide though

You have an actual argument? At least Ferguson brings those

Cope! Seethe! Based! Blah blah blah. Grow up and speak like a normal person. I don't like quoting massive walls of text, it makes threads messy.

The reality is that your whole screed is just bluster. It's because, ironically, you are so fundamentally unable to cope with the reality of death that you decide you need to attack people who were suffering greatly as "weak". Somehow you believe that a rational argument against people with terminal and painful illnesses being able to choose euthanasia is that "there are tons of people who want to kill themselves, who get better" and this choice is "showing that you don't believe they have the power to get better." Clearly, if these terminal patients just manned up - like you said you would personally - their cancer or whatever would just go away! Well, perhaps I ought rephrase, since parenting books almost universally eschew the use of sarcasm with children like you. This is not something that is offered to or considered by people who have prospects of survival beyond their illness.

Regardless, the option of euthanasia is not something that is taken lightly (and nor should it, and obviously I believe that the medical profession needs to enforce a strict and serious code of ethics around it). Those who choose it do not choose it because they are "weak" or "unable to handle it" or are "hedonists". They do not see life as worthless. In fact, it is the opposite. They have recognized they lived their life, and they do not need to cling to it so desperately. They have accepted their fate, they can cope with the oncoming reality of death, and they want to control their own exit from this life. They have made the choice that they would rather do this than perhaps burden their families and loved ones - not (just, in some cases) financially, but emotionally as well - and the medical profession ought to respect their choice. What no one needs to do is act high and mighty that somehow they are better, stronger, more righteous as a person because they would "never do such a thing". Good for you, but maybe step outside your shoes and your bubble once in a while.

If you had better arguments than just "my belief is that [this] is evil" and "people who do [this] are weak", maybe I would've been tempted to give you a serious response. But fundamentally, your posts show are not a serious person, and so I treat you with the respect you deserve. xoxo

[America Needs R'hllor]

Religious people can be so flexible with the written text and tradition of their religion when it suits them, but when it doesn't they simply end any serious moral argument about human rights and the suffering their beliefs can cause with "that's what I believe and you ought to respect it".

[Former President tack50]

This thread strikes right home for me for personal reasons, as right now a relative of mine is suffering from deep and widespread cancer (I do not know if it's terminal, but given their age and how widespread it is, recovery would be nothing short of an absolute miracle). I will note that despite being legal in Spain, euthanasia has not been even remotely mentioned as an option, and it is very unlikely it will be (for a lot of reasons that I will definitely not go into).

That being said, no, opting for assisted suicide does not make you "weak" or a worse person, or anything like that. In my view, there is no one stronger than those suffering from such a painful terminal illness, regarding of whether they choose assisted death or not. If you truly believe that, when in terrible suffering and pain, that doctors have certified that has a 0% chance of recovery, you should not even have the option to end said suffering in private, with your loved ones, rather than being forced to suffer for weeks or months on end for no purpose, well, I have nothing to say to you other than "F*** you"

And no, allowing people who want to to opt for assisted suicide is not some sort of societal moral failing, regardless of whether you base it on faith or on any other sort of philosophical grounding. In fact, it's not even like you're forced to, I am pretty sure any notary will easily sign you off on a last will that explicitly bans euthanasia if you are worried about it somehow being exercised against your will. And indeed consent is extremely important for it to be morally acceptable.

I will also echo Al's, Nathan's and Antonio's comments that the general debate over euthanasia and the specifics of Canada's law are 2 very different debates. Even as someone in favour of it being an option I can definitely see why Canada's law is problematic and I am very much not comfortable with many of the cases shown by the article (even if the issue is also probably being sensationalized). I could very much go into why I feel that way and in what specific cases I think assisted death should be an option or not. But the specifics of Canadian law and the general debate are 2 very separate debates.

[afleitch]

I can definitely see why Canada's law is problematic and I am very much not comfortable with many of the cases shown by the article (even if the issue is also probably being sensationalized).

For me I think there is sensationalising of the issue, and in bad faith from since reporting quarters, particularly when compared with the stats I posted.

There's a good summation here;

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying/annual-report-2020.html

There will always be extraordinary or edge cases. But that betrays the fact that there isn't really anything unexpected about the effects of the law.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

I can definitely see why Canada's law is problematic and I am very much not comfortable with many of the cases shown by the article (even if the issue is also probably being sensationalized).

For me I think there is sensationalising of the issue, and in bad faith from since reporting quarters, particularly when compared with the stats I posted.

There's a good summation here;

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying/annual-report-2020.html

There will always be extraordinary or edge cases. But that betrays the fact that there isn't really anything unexpected about the effects of the law.

The point is the Canadian health care system (from personal experience) still has a money incentive, it's just not as insane in America.

The NHS has no such motive. Like 75% of health care services in Canada are privately owned. As with most Canadian problems, it effects few people so it's swept under the rug. Look at those Americans! Any changes to Medicare will make us like America! (That's basically the NDP in summary).

[afleitch]

I can definitely see why Canada's law is problematic and I am very much not comfortable with many of the cases shown by the article (even if the issue is also probably being sensationalized).

For me I think there is sensationalising of the issue, and in bad faith from since reporting quarters, particularly when compared with the stats I posted.

There's a good summation here;

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying/annual-report-2020.html

There will always be extraordinary or edge cases. But that betrays the fact that there isn't really anything unexpected about the effects of the law.

The point is the Canadian health care system (from personal experience) still has a money incentive, it's just not as insane in America.

The NHS has no such motive. Like 75% of health care services in Canada are privately owned. As with most Canadian problems, it effects few people so it's swept under the rug. Look at those Americans! Any changes to Medicare will make us like America! (That's basically the NDP in summary).

While a health care service with a money making incentive is 'sus'; that surely applies to all forms of health care including traditional end of life care. I don't think that's a specific cause for concern. If the law is robust, then it's an issue with health care delivery.