Opinion of Afghanistan?
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December 03, 2022, 12:22:29 AM
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  Opinion of Afghanistan?
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Author Topic: Opinion of Afghanistan?  (Read 977 times)
TheReckoning
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« on: July 22, 2022, 05:24:15 PM »

What’s your opinion of this Central Asian/South Asian/Middle Eastern country?
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PSOL
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2022, 05:29:36 PM »

Beautiful landscape home to hospitable and friendly people who make great food. Shame years of war brought on by US meddling has led it to be a Theocratic s•••show.
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ingemann
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2022, 05:40:22 PM »

When people talk about colonialism being the thing which made so much of the world worse, let’s all remember that Afghanistan was never a victim of colonialism and it’s pretty much the worst country in the world.
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PSOL
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2022, 05:46:03 PM »

When people talk about colonialism being the thing which made so much of the world worse, let’s all remember that Afghanistan was never a victim of colonialism and it’s pretty much the worst country in the world.
Well having the Russians and British conduct occasional invasions and power plays in the court all throughout the 1800s, preventing any sort of stable government, along with an occupation that objectively caused the greatest movement of urbanization since the Indochinese conflicts is colonialism.

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ingemann
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2022, 05:54:01 PM »

When people talk about colonialism being the thing which made so much of the world worse, let’s all remember that Afghanistan was never a victim of colonialism and it’s pretty much the worst country in the world.
Well having the Russians and British conduct occasional invasions and power plays in the court all throughout the 1800s, preventing any sort of stable government, along with an occupation that objectively caused the greatest movement of urbanization since the Indochinese conflicts is colonialism.

Yes we all know winning wars work against developing stable governments./s

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Reverse-tradamus
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2022, 08:24:05 PM »

When people talk about colonialism being the thing which made so much of the world worse, let’s all remember that Afghanistan was never a victim of colonialism and it’s pretty much the worst country in the world.
To claim Afghanistan never really was a victim of colonialism tells me you don’t actually consider geopolitics or society beyond a surface level.
I will never understand why Western Europeans (and Japanese) people don’t just accept they f**ked some places up. Yes it’s not the ONLY factor, but it certainly is one.
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Josh Gottheimer Enjoyer
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2022, 10:12:52 PM »

Islam itself is a fine religion, but translating religion into politics almost always ends poorly, whether it be Netanyahu, ISIS, or the Evangelical Right.
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ingemann
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2022, 01:13:34 AM »

When people talk about colonialism being the thing which made so much of the world worse, let’s all remember that Afghanistan was never a victim of colonialism and it’s pretty much the worst country in the world.
To claim Afghanistan never really was a victim of colonialism tells me you don’t actually consider geopolitics or society beyond a surface level.
I will never understand why Western Europeans (and Japanese) people don’t just accept they f**ked some places up. Yes it’s not the ONLY factor, but it certainly is one.

Speak for yourself imperialist, the countries who got independence from my country are all high income countries.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2022, 03:56:06 AM »

An extremely unfortunate country.
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Meclazine
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2022, 08:03:19 AM »
« Edited: July 24, 2022, 06:01:04 PM by Meclazine »

When people talk about colonialism being the thing which made so much of the world worse, let’s all remember that Afghanistan was never a victim of colonialism and it’s pretty much the worst country in the world.

Hong Kong
Singapore
Australia
USA
Canada

All the most successful countries started as English Colonies. Then look at the French colonies:

Vietnam
Lebanon
Cote D'Voire
Burkina Faso

Almost a level below in terms of quality of result.

At the bottom of the barrel, we had The Congo with the Belgians chopping off the locals hands as the default punishment for bad behaviour.

So the colonialist effect depends largely on the colonialists.

England - Good
France - Average
Belgium - Poor

Like the posters on this forum in a way.
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Reverse-tradamus
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2022, 08:33:57 AM »

When people talk about colonialism being the thing which made so much of the world worse, let’s all remember that Afghanistan was never a victim of colonialism and it’s pretty much the worst country in the world.

Hong Kong
Singapore
Australia
USA
Canada

All the most successful countries started as Emglish Colonies.

Vietnam
Lebanon
Cote D'Voire
Burkina Faso

Almost a level below in terms of quality of result.

So the colonialist effect depends largely on the coloianialists.

England - Good
France - Average
Belgium - Poor

Like the posters on this forum in a way.

The differences of colonization did definitely have an impact. It’s not just about who is the colonizer, but also what the purpose of the colonization is. You can see differences between Spanish colonies in Latin America and the US for good reason, and a lot of it has to do with the social structures and economic systems put in place that became part of the local culture. An even better example is Haiti vs Dominican Republic.
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Reverse-tradamus
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2022, 08:35:37 AM »

When people talk about colonialism being the thing which made so much of the world worse, let’s all remember that Afghanistan was never a victim of colonialism and it’s pretty much the worst country in the world.
To claim Afghanistan never really was a victim of colonialism tells me you don’t actually consider geopolitics or society beyond a surface level.
I will never understand why Western Europeans (and Japanese) people don’t just accept they f**ked some places up. Yes it’s not the ONLY factor, but it certainly is one.

Speak for yourself imperialist, the countries who got independence from my country are all high income countries.
Hey, I’m not against colonialism, it’s just I am pro honesty. Colonialism in pursuit of raw materials tends to be a terrible deal for the land you are colonizing. Doesn’t mean the US shouldn’t engage in neocolonialism. The difference between us and the Europeans is that we don’t lie to ourselves.
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dead0man
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2022, 08:39:07 AM »

When people talk about colonialism being the thing which made so much of the world worse, let’s all remember that Afghanistan was never a victim of colonialism and it’s pretty much the worst country in the world.

Hong Kong
Singapore
Australia
USA
Canada

All the most successful countries started as Emglish Colonies.

Vietnam
Lebanon
Cote D'Voire
Burkina Faso

Almost a level below in terms of quality of result.

So the colonialist effect depends largely on the coloianialists.

England - Good
France - Average
Belgium - Poor

Like the posters on this forum in a way.

The differences of colonization did definitely have an impact. It’s not just about who is the colonizer, but also what the purpose of the colonization is. You can see differences between Spanish colonies in Latin America and the US for good reason, and a lot of it has to do with the social structures and economic systems put in place that became part of the local culture. An even better example is Haiti vs Dominican Republic.
indeed, people came to North America (mostly) to live, invest, grow and stay.  The people that went to Mexico and further south (mostly) went to harvest things and then retire back in Europe.
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FT-02 Senator A.F.E. 🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2022, 08:45:47 AM »

FC. It's a beautiful country with wonderful people who've had to endure suffering and hardships most of us will hopefully never have to go through for the past 50 years.
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Alben Barkley
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2022, 11:12:27 AM »

Beautiful landscape home to hospitable and friendly people who make great food. Shame years of war brought on by US meddling has led it to be a Theocratic s•••show.

You mean the same theocratic s—tshow it was before run by the same group of people? Or are you saying the Soviets were the good guys before and somehow their invasion was brought about by “US meddling?” Knowing you I’m sure you are lol.
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PSOL
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2022, 04:53:55 PM »

Beautiful landscape home to hospitable and friendly people who make great food. Shame years of war brought on by US meddling has led it to be a Theocratic s•••show.

You mean the same theocratic s—tshow it was before run by the same group of people? Or are you saying the Soviets were the good guys before and somehow their invasion was brought about by “US meddling?” Knowing you I’m sure you are lol.
Roll Eyes

Like how there’s only one comment actually divorcing the government from the people themselves who didn’t even want the current government.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2022, 12:20:31 AM »

Beautiful geography, very rich and diverse in terms of history and culture. The “graveyard of empires” is such a tired cliche. I remember one author (can’t remember their name unfortunately) call it “the crossroads of empires.” I like that.

Also, why is overt racism just casually being dropped in this thread?
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Pericles
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2022, 01:17:29 AM »

Without US support, the Afghan army barely put up a fight. It's impossible to know just how much support the Taliban actually had, but their soldiers don't seem to have been motivated to stop them. This is a tragedy for the people who are now being oppressed by the Taliban. Generally, it is an ungovernable country and is not really a nation, there are no easy answers but lasting peace is sadly pretty distant. 
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2022, 06:55:49 AM »

Without US support, the Afghan army barely put up a fight

Because the government they were meant to defend had little if any legitimacy.

Rigging elections is bad, kids.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2022, 06:57:33 AM »

Without US support, the Afghan army barely put up a fight. It's impossible to know just how much support the Taliban actually had, but their soldiers don't seem to have been motivated to stop them. This is a tragedy for the people who are now being oppressed by the Taliban. Generally, it is an ungovernable country and is not really a nation, there are no easy answers but lasting peace is sadly pretty distant. 

A lot of them did put up a fight and died. The warlords sold them out.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2022, 03:00:11 PM »

I have a lot of affection for the place, and this has only increased as a result of meeting and getting to know Afghans. It's customary to write it off as a place that never really had a chance, but this isn't fair: it was always going to be difficult due to raw geography and extreme ethnic and tribal fragmentation, but comparatively stable societies have been built out of worse hands and there was slow but quite real progress on this front in the postwar decades. After the Communist coup and the Soviet invasion though... well, perhaps not. It was decided that the only way to bring the population to heel was to break Afghan society, and while the goal was never achieved the means, alas, was. Some of the attempts to re-create a functioning society after 2001 were more successful than has become fashionable to acknowledge (which is causing some mild but unexpected - and thus interesting - problems for the Taliban) and it's hard not to wonder what might have been had successive American governments cared about the place a little more (enough to learn about it and to adjust strategy accordingly) or, actually, a little less (enough to allow decisions to be made by others) but what happened, happened.
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TiltsAreUnderrated
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« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2022, 03:54:08 AM »

Also, why is overt racism just casually being dropped in this thread?

Because the US lost a war there - not at all gracefully, and to a faction with ideological tendencies which are offensive to most of this forum’s bloggers.

The Taliban, at points, seemed more popular than the States (perhaps they were, by the end), so “we had the hearts and minds”/“we betrayed a largely sympathetic population” don’t really work to mitigate this. Widespread acceptance of the Taliban has to be confronted by people who’ve never considered it before, inviting revulsion. The refugees are not really as visible as the Vietnamese boat people, so aren’t as effective a counterexample.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2022, 06:06:16 AM »

Some of us will never forget how the American MSM deliberately drove Biden's ratings 15-20 points downwards out of sheer and simple spite over him abandoning this unwinnable forever war.

(including lots of "liberals", it goes without saying - hope they enjoy the coming Trumpian resurgence)
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Southern Delegate and Atlasian AG Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2022, 06:14:59 AM »

Some of us will never forget how the American MSM deliberately drove Biden's ratings 15-20 points downwards out of sheer and simple spite over him abandoning this unwinnable forever war.

(including lots of "liberals", it goes without saying - hope they enjoy the coming Trumpian resurgence)
Quoted for truth.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2022, 05:19:52 PM »

IMO the most offensive criticisms of the withdrawal came from Donald Trump and his administration’s officials.

Not to defend the way the withdrawal was carried out, or the disgusting and politically craven refusal of the Biden administration to take more refugees or lift sanctions. Nor should we defend the general “we’re washing our hands of all this” moral bankruptcy (and frankly racist essentialism—“this country won’t fight for itself, it’s a barbaric tribal mess, these people aren’t worth it” attitudes) of the US and its allies re: Afghanistan over the past year. But Trump and his flunkies are the absolute last people who have any credibility on this matter—they were the ones who dumped their sh-tty “deal” with the Taliban on Biden!
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