French political discussion megathread: Yellow Vest Redux

[Agafin]

D'après une enquête Ifop pour Le Figaro, publiée ce vendredi, 69% des Français y sont également favorables, et 31% défavorables. Par ailleurs, 69% des sondés condamnent les actes de violences, 28% les comprennent mais ne les approuvent pas et 3% les approuvent.

Rough translation:

According to an ifop poll for Le Figaro, published this Friday, 69% of French people agree [imposing state of emergency], and 31% disagree. Also, 69% of polled condemn acts of violence, 28% understand them but disapprove and 3% approve.

https://www.bfmtv.com/police-justice/mort-de-nahel-sept-francais-sur-dix-favorables-a-l-etat-d-urgence-selon-un-sondage_AN-202306300880.html.

So yeah, only 3% support the riots. I assume the 28% are the nupes supporters, the 3% are anarchists (who probably don't vote) and the 69% encompass pretty much the rest of the population from the center to the far-right. Also, it's interesting to note that the current strategy of Le Pen is to pretty much stay quiet. Probably for the better for her.

[jaichind]

Gaddafi's revenge from beyond the grave?

[Red Velvet]

It’s just obvious tbh. The more the West tries to isolate, suffocate, coup or destroy these South countries in order to protect their standing; the more overflooded the West will be with people from non-western places.

Which can be good to compensate for demographic declines but also creates a much more intense need for integration. They think they can welcome all these people while keeping them as third-rate citizens with no consequences and that’s simply impossible without some kind of harsh backlash. And we all know that the West isn’t really prepared to renounce to internal white supremacist dynamics that are key to shaping their national and cultural identities. You easily notice how they inherently feel “superior” to these immigrants culture even when they’re trying to welcome them.

It’s like, you can arrive to France as long as you renounce to your individual identity and basically become a white person with “French” values. It’s absolutely disgusting but westerners in general always push it very naturally because of this inherent misguided superior complex mixed with the savior complex too. It’s not because people look for better opportunities that they want to be like you are lmao. This led to people in the West to believe that immigrants would just come and be like them because the “inherent western cultural superiority” would lead the “better” culture to prevail.

If more and more people inside your borders are increasingly different than the “national standard” then it’s that standard that will inevitably have to change in order to fit the country reality for the sake of social cohesion and peace. Otherwise you have an apartheid state. This is the reality that the West has to face nowadays, renouncing their old national identities is inevitable for the sake of their own survival after all the interference that was pushed by themselves.

[PSOL]

Public opinion is a generally bad way to measure if something is good or not, they usually are not on the edge of providing most advanced ideas. The vast majority of the United States thought MLK was a negative influence when he was alive.

Also most Maghrebis in France act basically the same as their French peers and are integrated into French society. The current situation is due to most of them being forced into their certain caste and making up a heavy amount of the French working class. That’s on the government for doing such a separation.

[lfromnj]

It’s just obvious tbh. The more the West tries to isolate, suffocate, coup or destroy these South countries in order to protect their standing; the more overflooded the West will be with people from non-western places.

Which can be good to compensate for demographic declines but also creates a much more intense need for integration. They think they can welcome all these people while keeping them as third-rate citizens with no consequences and that’s simply impossible without some kind of harsh backlash. And we all know that the West isn’t really prepared to renounce to internal white supremacist dynamics that are key to shaping their national and cultural identities. You easily notice how they inherently feel “superior” to these immigrants culture even when they’re trying to welcome them.

It’s like, you can arrive to France as long as you renounce to your individual identity and basically become a white person with “French” values. It’s absolutely disgusting but westerners in general always push it very naturally because of this inherent misguided superior complex mixed with the savior complex too. It’s not because people look for better opportunities that they want to be like you are lmao. This led to people in the West to believe that immigrants would just come and be like them because the “inherent western cultural superiority” would lead the “better” culture to prevail.

If more and more people inside your borders are increasingly different than the “national standard” then it’s that standard that will inevitably have to change in order to fit the country reality for the sake of social cohesion and peace. Otherwise you have an apartheid state. This is the reality that the West has to face nowadays, renouncing their old national identities is inevitable for the sake of their own survival after all the interference that was pushed by themselves.

You say migrants can't properly integrate, yet I see these actions as proof of integration into the beloved French culture of rioting.

[MaxQue]

Gaddafi's revenge from beyond the grave?

No, because the rioters were already in France years before that. The rioters are not first generation immigrants.

[Zinneke]

Yeah when they go back to their "home" countries, they are very much seen as foreigners there too...the riots when Morroco were winning the World Cup for example, was a bit like Irish Americans rioting if Ireland were winning, but that rarely happens (Ireland winning I mean).

Although interestingly enough the Morrocan NT is also full of 3rd gen who don't speak Arabic

[jaymichaud]

Arguments in defence of the rioters i've seen:

>France colonized them so they deserve it
>You can't expect them to assimilate even after 2/3 generations

Of course followed by "they are still as French as anyone else btw"

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/mbompard/status/1675558576373354500

LFI nostalgic of Chirac...says it all (but very true words from both)

[Zinneke]

Russian propagandists on twitter are trying to make out that there'll be a military coup within 48 hours...I wonder why?

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

Russian propagandists on twitter are trying to make out that there'll be a military coup within 48 hours...I wonder why?

Because the Russian propagandists use every opportunity to convince the Russians to stay in the paddock?

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

The main danger that I see in these riots is that Europe will begin to slide further and further into the far right of the spectrum, as it once did in response to the Marxist riots.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

It’s just obvious tbh. The more the West tries to isolate, suffocate, coup or destroy these South countries in order to protect their standing; the more overflooded the West will be with people from non-western places.

Which can be good to compensate for demographic declines but also creates a much more intense need for integration. They think they can welcome all these people while keeping them as third-rate citizens with no consequences and that’s simply impossible without some kind of harsh backlash. And we all know that the West isn’t really prepared to renounce to internal white supremacist dynamics that are key to shaping their national and cultural identities. You easily notice how they inherently feel “superior” to these immigrants culture even when they’re trying to welcome them.

It’s like, you can arrive to France as long as you renounce to your individual identity and basically become a white person with “French” values. It’s absolutely disgusting but westerners in general always push it very naturally because of this inherent misguided superior complex mixed with the savior complex too. It’s not because people look for better opportunities that they want to be like you are lmao. This led to people in the West to believe that immigrants would just come and be like them because the “inherent western cultural superiority” would lead the “better” culture to prevail.

If more and more people inside your borders are increasingly different than the “national standard” then it’s that standard that will inevitably have to change in order to fit the country reality for the sake of social cohesion and peace. Otherwise you have an apartheid state. This is the reality that the West has to face nowadays, renouncing their old national identities is inevitable for the sake of their own survival after all the interference that was pushed by themselves.

You say migrants can't properly integrate, yet I see these actions as proof of integration into the beloved French culture of rioting.

lol

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

On distinguishing between a protest and a riot: if the property being damaged is owned by the state or state officials then it is a (violent) protest, whereas if the destruction is aimed at, say, random cars and businesses then it is a riot. The former could be circumstantially justified (say, it's 1944 and you're up against Literally Hitler) but the latter has no justification.

The past week has firmly fallen into the second category and if anything is closer to a pogrom than a protest. The thing is, nobody is going to tolerate indefinite lawlessness, not even the French. There are two possible endgames here: an escalation in police power probably accompanied by a political swing to the right, or if the police are unable/unwilling then nationalist militias will fill the void. You can just take a look at Lebanon to see where that road ends.

[PSOL]

On distinguishing between a protest and a riot: if the property being damaged is owned by the state or state officials then it is a (violent) protest, whereas if the destruction is aimed at, say, random cars and businesses then it is a riot. The former could be circumstantially justified (say, it's 1944 and you're up against Literally Hitler) but the latter has no justification.

The past week has firmly fallen into the second category and if anything is closer to a pogrom than a protest. The thing is, nobody is going to tolerate indefinite lawlessness, not even the French. There are two possible endgames here: an escalation in police power probably accompanied by a political swing to the right, or if the police are unable/unwilling then nationalist militias will fill the void. You can just take a look at Lebanon to see where that road ends.

The war in Lebanon overthrew a brutal dictator and was going to usher in a democratic, secular government until reactionary outsiders to the south invaded. What makes it even crazier was that the secular democrats still won, which prevented a massive genocide of Greek christians and Muslims and the takeover of power by Fascist sympathizers.

Complaints of private property being destroyed are the same rhetoric used by Trump and De Gaulle to promote their authoritarian regimes, and will fall under deaf ears. Even an escalation misses the components to De Gaulle's success; the undivided and committed wish by Germany and the United States to prop up the French regime where these nations have their own worries and have been busy with Ukraine, the absolute loyalty to the far right who this time smell blood in the water, and the betrayal and direct clashes done by the PCF and Trotskyist saboteurs whom are seriously under threat of extermination of their future careers as Macron promises to gut unions and the universities.

Macron is under thin ice, and regardless of where the police and military lie, a country like France has seen the military lose the battles in the polls and has a hard time stamping out that revolutionary spirit even with force if history is seen as a guide.

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

The main danger that I see in these riots is that Europe will begin to slide further and further into the far right of the spectrum, as it once did in response to the Marxist riots.

Well, and the ruscist propaganda stirs up far right sentiments in the hope of a coup d'état in France. The ruscists even bothered to translate it into French, although it was published in the Russian-language Telegram channel.

https://t.me/NeoficialniyBeZsonoV/27076

Неофициальный Безсонов


Каждый француз должен осознать, что пришли те самые времена, когда решается вопрос «быть или не быть». Французы должны помнить, что они потомки великих предков с великой историей. Именно сейчас нужно сменить правительство и выйти из-под гнёта США. Именно сейчас необходимо ужесточить миграционную политику и развивать экономику своей страны, а не нести колоссальные убытки в борьбе с оппонентами США. Если вы не возьмёте всё в свои руки, то через каких-то 20-30 лет во Франции будут жить дети и внуки африканских мигрантов, а для ваших потомков места не будет. Если Франция вообще будет существовать через 20-30 лет.

Я верю в то, что французы сделают правильный выбор и справятся с американскими марионетками, засевшими в Елисейском дворце. Они не подведут своих предков и не обрекут своих потомков на вымирание.

Chaque Français doit réaliser que les temps sont venus où la question « être ou ne pas être » est en jeu. Les Français doivent se rappeler qu'ils sont les descendants de grands ancêtres avec une grande histoire. En ce moment, il est temps de changer de gouvernement et de sortir du joug étasunien. À l'heure actuelle, il est nécessaire de durcir la politique migratoire et de développer l'économie de son propre pays, au lieu de subir des pertes colossales dans la lutte contre ceux qui s'opposent aux États-Unis. Si vous ne prenez pas votre destin en main, dans 20-30 ans, la France sera peuplée des enfants et des petits-enfants des migrants africains et il n'y aura plus de place pour vos propres descendants. Si toutefois, la France existera toujours dans 20-30 ans.

Je suis persuadé que les Français feront le bon choix et se débarrasseront des pantins des Américaines installés à l’Élysée. Ils ne décevront pas leurs ancêtres et ne condamneront pas leurs descendants à l'extinction.

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

I suspect this is a template that the authors of the channel invite their subscribers to send out on French social networks, posing themselves as ordinary French guys.

[CumbrianLefty]

Russian propagandists on twitter are trying to make out that there'll be a military coup within 48 hours...I wonder why?

They should be more "concerned" about their homeland in that regard, if anything.

[Zinneke]

Russian propagandists on twitter are trying to make out that there'll be a military coup within 48 hours...I wonder why?

They should be more "concerned" about their homeland in that regard, if anything.

Yes it was a rhetorical question

Anyway, I listened to a French podcast with a wide range of views, and there was some tidbits I thought I'd share to add to this "combat d'infirmes" with my own conjectures

• This is much more like the London riots of 2011 that the George Floyd protests. The George Floyd protests were still fundamentally political, these protests are somewhat nihilistic and there is no actual genuine political requests coming out of these, which is also what makes this protest different to say 2005. Looters and just generic nihilistic behaviour is the main driving force of these. And sure you had looters in the BLM protests, opportunists, etc but the central gatherings during that time were genuine protests with banners, people power, etc. Apart from the white march for Nahel there isn't much political mobilisation, just talking heads on TV calling for police reform. And incidentally that doesn't mean the median French voter is uninterested in reforming the police, but its pretty obvious that the median French voter, in so far as they exist, deem public order in these banlieues to be a much bigger issue than police reform, and that's a shame as both are obviously linked
  
• France's precarious internal security situation over the past 10 years (several terrorist attacks) meant there were massive recruitment drives of police officers, which were rushed and thus poorly trained and poorly vetted. In that context its no wonder that there are extreme right police officers on the ground right now, and its no excuse either, as these guys just continue the problem + the police unions continue the grift (I genuinely think a lot of police unions are only far right for the grifting purposes, or at least they are casually far right but above all else want shiny new toys that they can claim budgets with and blackmail the President so his approvals don't tank).
   
• Related to this, Macron is a President who is actually pretty strict when it comes to tackling drug trafficking, more so than previous Presidents. The reasons for this are multiple, I would theorise its because of what I said before about him : he is a goody two shoes who feels genuine contempt for people he deems imperfect, whereas the likes of Chirac and Hollande, despite being arrogant/aloof, understood the imperfections of humanity and societies like these as a whole. Anyway, one of the speakers on the podcast said it is perfectly possible this is an intimidation tactic of influential drug dealer gangs in specific quarters to turn the heat up and rally certain types to their anti-policing cause. Police presence in these areas has gone up massively under Macron compared to Chirac and Hollande. Sarkozy was quite authoritarian too but he butchered "police de proximité", the equivalent of the British community police, with his austerity. Macron in tandem with Hollande's recruitment drive after the terror attacks has really upped the tempo in these areas in terms of boots on the ground.
  
• Amidst the over-analysis of the causes of these protests, you can for sure include racial profiling and austerity and a bunch of other ready made issues that we all know about, I still maintain listening to the sociological perspectives is that the number one issue in these places is broken families or broken parenting. Partially that can be put down to for example working class people working long hours, nightshifts, supervision etc, but I think we're being really blind with "baizuo" if we're not honest about some cultural aspects too. In a village in the Atlas mountains its perfectly normal to let your child roam and explore the world until midnight/1 am, hell even Spain for example has that culture - it should be expected though that in a city like Paris you should know where your 13 year old kid is at ing midnight. And the adaptation of this culture leads to very specific phenomena like 13 year olds hanging out with guys who can afford Mercedes A-class with Polish number plates. It still staggers me that there are people here who in the name of cultural relativism would say its up to a parent to do what they want with their kid.
   
• Even so, the only way you link the issue of Mediterranean migration to this issue is through austerity and public services unable to house and deal with more people. if you think its because of more Muslims or Arabs that this is somehow a related problem : we're talking 3rd generation here vs newcomers and more importantly treating each one of them as individuals rather than a blob - there's absolutely no link and the real culprits for both are the decades of cost-cutting McKinsey fuelled neo-liberalism that destroyed the State as a capable actor of housing, educating and providing public and cultural services to people of all backgrounds, as well as a police force which for the reasons I cited now inhabits far right activists. Quit the ing "France is going to sh*t" rhetoric, its still a more tolerant society than most, and its incredible seeing Americans think its some sort of warzone when they probably have a fair amount more "no go" areas that could genuinely be called ghettos as well as unhealthy obsession with self-segregation, so the eurobashing is honestly a bit laughable.
  

[Meclazine for Israel]

Policeman who shot teenager has GoFundMe with over 1 Million Euros raised, over 5 times that of the victim's family fund.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-04/millions-pledged-for-french-police-officer-who-shot-teenager/102557298

I don't know if that actually means anything.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Russian propagandists on twitter are trying to make out that there'll be a military coup within 48 hours...I wonder why?

They should be more "concerned" about their homeland in that regard, if anything.

Yes it was a rhetorical question

Anyway, I listened to a French podcast with a wide range of views, and there was some tidbits I thought I'd share to add to this "combat d'infirmes" with my own conjectures

• This is much more like the London riots of 2011 that the George Floyd protests. The George Floyd protests were still fundamentally political, these protests are somewhat nihilistic and there is no actual genuine political requests coming out of these, which is also what makes this protest different to say 2005. Looters and just generic nihilistic behaviour is the main driving force of these. And sure you had looters in the BLM protests, opportunists, etc but the central gatherings during that time were genuine protests with banners, people power, etc. Apart from the white march for Nahel there isn't much political mobilisation, just talking heads on TV calling for police reform. And incidentally that doesn't mean the median French voter is uninterested in reforming the police, but its pretty obvious that the median French voter, in so far as they exist, deem public order in these banlieues to be a much bigger issue than police reform, and that's a shame as both are obviously linked
  
• France's precarious internal security situation over the past 10 years (several terrorist attacks) meant there were massive recruitment drives of police officers, which were rushed and thus poorly trained and poorly vetted. In that context its no wonder that there are extreme right police officers on the ground right now, and its no excuse either, as these guys just continue the problem + the police unions continue the grift (I genuinely think a lot of police unions are only far right for the grifting purposes, or at least they are casually far right but above all else want shiny new toys that they can claim budgets with and blackmail the President so his approvals don't tank).
   
• Related to this, Macron is a President who is actually pretty strict when it comes to tackling drug trafficking, more so than previous Presidents. The reasons for this are multiple, I would theorise its because of what I said before about him : he is a goody two shoes who feels genuine contempt for people he deems imperfect, whereas the likes of Chirac and Hollande, despite being arrogant/aloof, understood the imperfections of humanity and societies like these as a whole. Anyway, one of the speakers on the podcast said it is perfectly possible this is an intimidation tactic of influential drug dealer gangs in specific quarters to turn the heat up and rally certain types to their anti-policing cause. Police presence in these areas has gone up massively under Macron compared to Chirac and Hollande. Sarkozy was quite authoritarian too but he butchered "police de proximité", the equivalent of the British community police, with his austerity. Macron in tandem with Hollande's recruitment drive after the terror attacks has really upped the tempo in these areas in terms of boots on the ground.
  
• Amidst the over-analysis of the causes of these protests, you can for sure include racial profiling and austerity and a bunch of other ready made issues that we all know about, I still maintain listening to the sociological perspectives is that the number one issue in these places is broken families or broken parenting. Partially that can be put down to for example working class people working long hours, nightshifts, supervision etc, but I think we're being really blind with "baizuo" if we're not honest about some cultural aspects too. In a village in the Atlas mountains its perfectly normal to let your child roam and explore the world until midnight/1 am, hell even Spain for example has that culture - it should be expected though that in a city like Paris you should know where your 13 year old kid is at ing midnight. And the adaptation of this culture leads to very specific phenomena like 13 year olds hanging out with guys who can afford Mercedes A-class with Polish number plates. It still staggers me that there are people here who in the name of cultural relativism would say its up to a parent to do what they want with their kid.
   
• Even so, the only way you link the issue of Mediterranean migration to this issue is through austerity and public services unable to house and deal with more people. if you think its because of more Muslims or Arabs that this is somehow a related problem : we're talking 3rd generation here vs newcomers and more importantly treating each one of them as individuals rather than a blob - there's absolutely no link and the real culprits for both are the decades of cost-cutting McKinsey fuelled neo-liberalism that destroyed the State as a capable actor of housing, educating and providing public and cultural services to people of all backgrounds, as well as a police force which for the reasons I cited now inhabits far right activists. Quit the ing "France is going to sh*t" rhetoric, its still a more tolerant society than most, and its incredible seeing Americans think its some sort of warzone when they probably have a fair amount more "no go" areas that could genuinely be called ghettos as well as unhealthy obsession with self-segregation, so the eurobashing is honestly a bit laughable.
  

Thanks for this post, it was enlightening.

[lfromnj]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1785433/emmanuel-macron-france-new-hospital

 

Emmanuel Macron, the French President, outlined his vision for France as he confirmed the country was preparing for a "possible high-intensity war", with the announcement a new hospital would be built.

During a visit to Marseille, the French leader said the new military hospital was set to support citizens in the event his nation becomes embroiled in a bloody battle.

Jupiter is always prepared

[LAKISYLVANIA]

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1676312502060085255

[PSOL]

The protests are shaping up just like the Mahsa Amini protests, just as they begin to die down the authorities kill another person or brutalize children to remind people just why they hate the government so much.

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1676312502060085255

Why does this source have the name of a Slavic town?